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The joy is gone...

"Better" is subjective to a large extent. We've all witnessed things other people like or that are even popular that we cannot stand.

The TBBS or any message board is another aspect of this as well. You post a lot when you first sign on, but after a while you see the same questions and the same subjects over and over again. You get talked out.

It's funny--I signed on for a second go 'round back in October of 2005, about a month and a half after I started grad school. I just finished and I find my interest in this place is pretty much finished as well. I think the board was pmostly an outlet for excess mentation--I could post term papers here on what "Turnabout Intruder" was really trying to get across or what Star Trek would be like if it were remotely hard SF and it would relieve stress in a weird way. Now? Not really interested, especially after a recent "conversation" about Shatner and Kirk devolved into a truly asinine display of sub-high school snottiness. Got better things to do, really, even if those better things are nothing at all.
 
I've lurked here off and on over the years, but haven't posted regularly since mid to late '04, but I feel like I've read at least half a dozen versions of this thread. I see the same types of threads in other forums that I saw four or five years ago as well. I guess it's difficult to not repeat the same topics in a fan community, especially when there's not much going on in the world of Trek right now. This forum seems like the home of a lot of bitter and jaded old fans, and it probably always will be.
 
^Then I suggest closing this thread, as it is pretty clear that anyone who participates in it will get into trouble, which is certainly the intent behind starting this thread in the first place.
Agreed.
I for one will not come back to this thread, since I don't want my membership jeopardized by posters or moderators. I will also block the poster, to be safe.
I guess I'm learning how things really work. :(
 
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I've been a long time lurker and occasional poster here. Over the years I couldn't help but notice the amount of derision laid upon Warped9 simply because he expressed an opinion that the majority disagreed with. Hardly an example of IDIC at its finest. While I don't completely agree with him on the quality of spinoffs, there is more than a kernel of truth to what he says. Think of episodes such as "The Corbomite Maneuver", "City On the Edge of Forever", and "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield". Now think of the Chief Engineer of the Enterprise lubing up the silicone implanted Science Officer in the decon chamber. 'Nuff said.
 
I fail to see what you're comparison is. Themes of several episodes vs one scene in a single episode?? Doesn't quite balance out.
 
I can see the point of the poster who started this thread and believe me, I know how it is to be a dissapointed fan who is dissatisfied with how something I really like can go in the wrong direction.

As some older posters here might remember, I was very annoyed when Kes was kicked out of Star Trek Voyager, I still am. I'm not to happy over "Enterprise" either and I do have my doubts about the upcoming Star trek movie where Kirk, Spock and the others will be portrayed by other actors than Shatner, Nimoy and the other legends.

But that doesn't take away what's was good with Star Trek.

There have been times when I have thought of completly quitting everything with Star Trek, one of those moments happened only two days ago when I was a bit depressed over certain "developments".

But there's always something there which keeps the interest. I did watch a re-run of a TNG episode the next day and the feeling of happiness was there again, sort of "this is good". I still get a kick out of watching the Voyager pilot "Caretaker" or re-reading "The Black Shore", Greg Cox's masterpiece.

And it's actually funny to discuss these items on a friendly Trek forum with people who share that interest.

So why give up all of it. Keep the pieces that were and still are good because no-one can take them away from you. Keep the faith!
 
I fail to see what you're comparison is. Themes of several episodes vs one scene in a single episode?? Doesn't quite balance out.
If you think there was only one decon rub down scene on ENT then you need to watch again, and let's not forget the hot vulcan meditation rub down sessions. I used that as an example because I believe it represents the overall idea behind the show which seemed to be "Sex it up, Dumb it down." I guess that could be considered a theme.
 
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ENT tried to discuss serious issues too ( Cogenitor and Similitude spring to mind ) just as TOS did sexy at times.
 
ENT tried to discuss serious issues too ( Cogenitor and Similitude spring to mind ) just as TOS did sexy at times.
Sure, but what about the ratio of sexy compared to serious? What about the quality of the writing and the intelligence and sensitivity with which the story is handled? Those are the things that matter. TOS certainly wasn't above sexual titillation, but it was never crass. ENT occasionally tried its hand at intelligent, thoughtful stories. It rarely succeeded and certainly never reached the heights of TOS or even TNG or DS9. They were going after a teen boy demographic they were never going to get and ended up making an inferior product.
 
ENT tried to discuss serious issues too ( Cogenitor and Similitude spring to mind ) just as TOS did sexy at times.
Sure, but what about the ratio of sexy compared to serious? What about the quality of the writing and the intelligence and sensitivity with which the story is handled? Those are the things that matter. TOS certainly wasn't above sexual titillation, but it was never crass. ENT occasionally tried its hand at intelligent, thoughtful stories. It rarely succeeded and certainly never reached the heights of TOS or even TNG or DS9. They were going after a teen boy demographic they were never going to get and ended up making an inferior product.

Well.. we must have been watching different shows. I enjoyed a lot of ENT, and I am a lifelong fan of the original show, certainly not a "teen boy." That statement is an insult to anyone who enjoyed that show and certainly at the root of this thread's intentions.

As far as Warped, the derision comes from listening to the constant one note complaining. Despite his claims about being finished with posting here, he still continues and that only serves to expose his true intentions:Trolling people who disagree with him and then crying foul when he gets called on his own bullshit. I have no sympathy.
 
Well.. we must have been watching different shows. I enjoyed a lot of ENT, and I am a lifelong fan of the original show, certainly not a "teen boy." That statement is an insult to anyone who enjoyed that show and certainly at the root of this thread's intentions.

Well, it wasn't my intention to insult those who enjoyed the show. I was just stating my opinion. I'm not insulted when someone says that they don't like TOS or that they find it campy. I don't think ENT was all bad and I managed to find a few things I appreciated about it (especially in the 4th season). I just assumed it was common knowledge that the producers of ENT were going for a younger demographic and that's why they put so much pseudo-sexual content in the show. I was also making the case that on the whole ENT wasn't nearly as thoughtful or intelligent as TOS. I find it difficult to believe that a majority of people would disagree with me, but I will concede that it is a matter of taste.

As far as Warped, the derision comes from listening to the constant one note complaining. Despite his claims about being finished with posting here, he still continues and that only serves to expose his true intentions:Trolling people who disagree with him and then crying foul when he gets called on his own bullshit. I have no sympathy.
The reality is that it's a two-way street and some people are irrationally intolerant of his opinions. However, I'll leave him to fight his own battles.
 
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Well.. we must have been watching different shows. I enjoyed a lot of ENT, and I am a lifelong fan of the original show, certainly not a "teen boy." That statement is an insult to anyone who enjoyed that show and certainly at the root of this thread's intentions.

Well, it wasn't my intention to be insulting to those who enjoyed the show. I found some things about the show that I enjoyed as well. I just assumed it was common knowledge that the producers of ENT were going for a younger demographic and that's why they put so much pseudo-sexual content in the show. I was also making the case that on the whole ENT wasn't nearly as thoughtful or intelligent as TOS. I find it difficult to believe that a majority of people who disagree with me, but I will concede that it is a matter of taste.
The producers intended the series to be more like "The Right Stuff."
UPN kept dictating the demographic everytime they retooled the network. You can really see it in the programming of UPN since it's inception. I think the level of "retread" storylines reflected the wishes of the newtork more than the wishes of the producers. I noticed this with VOY at well. They would have never had a guest appearance by the Rock if that show had been in syndication, but then even syndication changed over the years.

I personally think television itself has been dumbed down. You can put nearly any 60s television drama or sci-fi show up against a contemporary counterpart and make the same conclusions. I think all the Star Trek series attempted to make the best show under the limitations they had. Obviously some series had different limitations.

Each series was a product of its time. ENT reflects that as much as TOS did in the sixties. I don't think anyone under, say, 35 or so could make that connection because they wouldn't have had the opportunity to have lived long enough to experience such changes in society and in the entertainment industry first hand.

I remember how people used to complain about the musical scores from the modern series compared to the swashbuckling fanfares of the original show. That is not just the personal tastes of one particular producer, but the dictates of an industry trend in general.. There is always a bigger picture and most people make these comparisons between series in a timeless vacuum. This kind of comparison is extremely flawed and unrealistic in my opinion.

The writers of ENT were fans of the original show. But writing for television has also changed a great deal in 40 years time. Television entertainment itself has changed over 40 years. That anyone can write anything thought provoking and keep it on the air for more than 14 episodes on network television is something of a rarity..(or cult hit??) This is of course not even taking cable networks into consideration..How many cable networks really take those kind of risks??

Another thing to take into consideration is demographics itself. TOS' original viewing numbers never took age groups into effect. It was relvealed that the show appealed to younger viewers at the time. It is well known that the most fertile demographic is the 18-25.. Fans of the original show are now in their 40s, 50s and 60s.
The newer series all did a great deal to please those fans too while still trying to appeal to the demographic of people who actually go out and buy the stuff advertised. I think the syndication era gave producers a lot more leeway to take bigger risks, but even they are not immune to falling numbers. DS9 brought in Worf to bring in TNG fans when their numbers were falling.

I think we were lucky to get 18 years of Trek. None of these shows would have survived now, expecially given the small minded cynicism of sci-fi fans, and let's face it sci-fi fans are a niche market at best.

NuBSG pulls in 3-4 Million viewers on Sci-Fi and is a qualified hit. ENT pulled in 3-4 Million viewers on UPN and was cancelled. More people would rather watch America's Top Model or American Idol. This is the general television viewing public.

TOS wasn't immune to this kind of network pressure. If they had had their way, Spock would have been smoking special Vulcan cigarettes.
ENT gave us three decon scenes. VOY gave us the Rock. Don't think the writers and producers didn't fight that as hard as Gene Roddenberry might have. Granted, the decon scenes were something the producers put in, and I didn't find this objectionable. It makes sense in an era where the transporter's biofilters wouldn't have existed yet and while the camera enhances the sensuality of the scene, notice the characters were pretty nonchalant about it. It was just another day in space for them. That justifies the decon scenes for me.
As far as Warped, the derision comes from listening to the constant one note complaining. Despite his claims about being finished with posting here, he still continues and that only serves to expose his true intentions:Trolling people who disagree with him and then crying foul when he gets called on his own bullshit. I have no sympathy.
The reality is that it's a two-way street and some people are irrationally intolerant of his opinions. However, I'll leave him to fight his own battles.

But then he did say that he no longer gave a shit. So I guess it's all fair game now.
 
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I don't agree.I thought all the movies were good up till now.Some,better than others.Voyager was a great show,and now we have the fan productions.The ones that I've seen,based on the original series ,are getting better with each episode."World Enough and Time", and "Of Gods and Men" come to mind,not to forget Starship Farragut and Starship Exeter.Those 2 movies alone should keep any Star Trek Fan happy


Rob
 
I personally think television itself has been dumbed down. You can put nearly any 60s television drama or sci-fi show up against a contemporary counterpart and make the same conclusions. I think all the Star Trek series attempted to make the best show under the limitations they had. Obviously some series had different limitations.

I agree completely and feel that this statement gets to the heart of what I was saying.

Each series was a product of its time. ENT reflects that as much as TOS did in the sixties. I don't think anyone under, say, 35 or so could make that connection because they wouldn't have had the opportunity to have lived long enough to experience such changes in society and in the entertainment industry first hand.

I remember how people used to complain about the musical scores from the modern series compared to the swashbuckling fanfares of the original show. That is not just the personal tastes of one particular producer, but the dictates of an industry trend in general.. There is always a bigger picture and most people make these comparisons between series in a timeless vacuum. This kind of comparison is extremely flawed and unrealistic in my opinion.

The writers of ENT were fans of the original show. But writing for television has also changed a great deal in 40 years time. Television entertainment itself has changed over 40 years. That anyone can write anything thought provoking and keep it on the air for more than 14 episodes on network television is something of a rarity..(or cult hit??) This is of course not even taking cable networks into consideration..How many cable networks really take those kind of risks??

Another thing to take into consideration is demographics itself. TOS' original viewing numbers never took age groups into effect. It was relvealed that the show appealed to younger viewers at the time. It is well known that the most fertile demographic is the 18-25.. Fans of the original show are now in their 40s, 50s and 60s.
The newer series all did a great deal to please those fans too while still trying to appeal to the demographic of people who actually go out and buy the stuff advertised. I think the syndication era gave producers a lot more leeway to take bigger risks, but even they are not immune to falling numbers. DS9 brought in Worf to bring in TNG fans when their numbers were falling.

I think we were lucky to get 18 years of Trek. None of these shows would have survived now, expecially given the small minded cynicism of sci-fi fans, and let's face it sci-fi fans are a niche market at best.

NuBSG pulls in 3-4 Million viewers on Sci-Fi and is a qualified hit. ENT pulled in 3-4 Million viewers on UPN and was cancelled. More people would rather watch America's Top Model or American Idol. This is the general television viewing public.
Thanks for the reasoned and thoughtful analysis. I agree with nearly all of it. As you said, television shows are a product of their time. I think that the writers started out doing the best they could within the limitations of what the studio wanted. However, as bad as most tv is compared a few decades ago, there is still some quality tv out there. Its lazy for writers to say, "Everything else on tv is vapid, so we can't get write anything that's too smart." As you say, most shows that are of any quality are usually canceled before they can get to the end of the season. However, the producers had the Star Trek name behind them. Granted, that didn't mean as much as used to, but the brand was still strong enough to allow them to dare to do something truly different. To bring thoughtful, intelligent sci-fi back to television. The pilot made me hopeful (even with the decon scene). However, I felt the writers either started getting lazy, or more likely were getting pressure from the studio, and started relying on T&A and soap opera story lines. There was great potential in the premise and I felt that it was mostly squandered. There was some improvement in the 4th season but I felt it was too little too late.


ENT gave us three decon scenes. VOY gave us the Rock. Don't think the writers and producers didn't fight that as hard as Gene Roddenberry might have. Granted, the decon scenes were something the producers put in, and I didn't find this objectionable. It makes sense in an era where the transporter's biofilters wouldn't have existed yet and while the camera enhances the sensuality of the scene, notice the characters were pretty nonchalant about it. It was just another day in space for them. That justifies the decon scenes for me.
To be fair, while I used the decon scenes as an example, they are far from the only examples. ENT was full of that sort of pseudo-sexual content. It had more than TOS and certainly had far more than the other spin-offs. I'm not necessarily against that sort of thing as long its used sparingly. A little goes a long way. The producers didn't seem to feel that way. Due to their lack of restraint, the show felt too removed from Star Trek for my taste.
 
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Responding to Ward Fowler

I don't think it was filled with as much T&A moments as you suggest. I will concede some laziness, but I think that comes from fatigue and UPN's edict for "More Trek-like" stories (look at how UPN handled Twilight Zone). Those shows were also more character driven and less high concept than the other series. I wouldn't say one is better or worse, just different.

There were a couple of goofy things, and I did groan, but none as eggregious as anything else Trek has done.

We can agree to disagree. I am probably one of the only people who enjoyed A Night In Sickbay, for example.

The sexuality in TOS and how it is treated has, for me, been continually over stated. Nearly all the females portrayed in Roddenberry's Trek were subordinate, filmed in guazy highlites and gave the Captain some nookie.

You see how that generalization is certanly correct, but robs those shows of their other intrinsic qualities??

I do feel that the spin off series gave us stronger female characters who could be powerful, sexy and flawed, like their male counterparts.

I personally think ENT played both sides of this coin with the men as well. Certainly no one complains about Trip or Archer being shirtless or roaming around in their underwear as much as they complain about T'Pol's boobs falling into Archer's face in "Shadows of P'Jem."
 
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Granted, I haven't watched ENT since it went off the air, but I did see just about every episode. It seemed to me that the writers were often trying to sexualize the characters on the show, finding excuses for them to strip down to the point of ridiculousness. By the way, this was true of the male characters as well, maybe even more so than the female characters. It cheapened the show for me, but as you said we can agree to disagree. To tell you the truth, in general I think we agree more than not.
 
I fail to see what you're comparison is. Themes of several episodes vs one scene in a single episode?? Doesn't quite balance out.
If you think there was only one decon rub down scene on ENT then you need to watch again, and let's not forget the hot vulcan meditation rub down sessions. I used that as an example because I believe it represents the overall idea behind the show which seemed to be "Sex it up, Dumb it down." I guess that could be considered a theme.

No I'm just wondering why you're comparing one scene in a single ENT episode to three full TOS episodes. Seems like comparing a stripe on a tiger to a pride of lions. Just not apt comparison. TOS was sexed up too. Notice in the pilots the women wear slacks like the men but in the regular series they're in miniskirts and stockings. The show deliberately pushed the boundaries of network censorship by showing as much female skin as possible . Ever notice that female Kelvans showed a lot more flesh than the males. Or what about Andrea the Android? Her costume was a bandoleer and hip huggers while Brown wore a jumpsuit and Ruk wore a robe. We probably saw as much of Andrea's backside as we did T'Pols. Or how about that slow lingering shot of the Dolman going from her feet to her head when she transports to the Enterprise? Sex and Sexual attraction figured in several TOS episodes, it was almost a running theme. And if GR thought he could getaway with a "decon scene" in TOS you can be assured he would have popped it in an episode ASAP ( and handled the auditions personally)

As for Dumbing it down. I'm not seeing it.
 
My biggest problem with "Enterprise" was all the gunfights.

I thought I was watching goddamned "Gunsmoke" half the fucking time.

Joe, liked Miss Kitty
 
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