Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[theenglish]

I could have sworn that included Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., Agent Carter, ect., but I double checked and they weren't on there so I guess I was mistaken and you are right about them not being canon. It does seem like that would be the most accurate and up to date indicator of what's currently canon. My apologize.

I think the confusion is because Agents was originally treated as MCU canon, both in context of the story and in real world publicity. The final season arc was positioned so that people were encouraged to see Winter Soldier the first week it was released because the movie took place between two episodes. There was an episode that followed up on events from The Dark World and included actors from the movie. The helicarrier used in Age of Ultron had a backstory linked to AoS. And publicity releases at the time specifically used cross-promotion between the series and the movies. The season finale in 2018 took place while the events of Infinity War were happening. That's why it was such a big deal when the series was omitted from the MCU canon when the timeline was published.

 

[Christopher]

I thought you were really missing out by not watching Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., Agent Carter, and Runways, which I thought were great shows, and would have been a whole chunk of the canon you were missing out on. Even though they're not canon, I'd still recommend checking them out.

Of course. It's all equally imaginary, so it makes no sense to deprive yourself of one made-up story just because it's out of continuity with some other made-up stories. It astonishes me how many fans think that experiencing fiction is some kind of exam they're being graded on so that they have to restrict themselves to the "correct" answers, rather than just enjoying a bunch of stories that sometimes agree and sometimes don't, which has no bearing on their entertainment value. There's no penalty for liking a story that's out of continuity.

Heck, even in my most continuity-obsessed phase, when I decided a Star Trek novel was irreconcilable with canon, I didn't get rid of it or refuse to reread it (unless I didn't enjoy it); I just put it on a different shelf from the main continuity. Canon is not value, just categorization.

I think the confusion is because Agents was originally treated as MCU canon, both in context of the story and in real world publicity. The final season arc was positioned so that people were encouraged to see Winter Soldier the first week it was released because the movie took place between two episodes. There was an episode that followed up on events from The Dark World and included actors from the movie. The helicarrier used in Age of Ultron had a backstory linked to AoS. And publicity releases at the time specifically used cross-promotion between the series and the movies. The season finale in 2018 took place while the events of Infinity War were happening. That's why it was such a big deal when the series was omitted from the MCU canon when the timeline was published.

Yes. As I recall, there was a split between the movie and TV divisions of Marvel Studios a few years into AoS's run, so that AoS no longer had enough access to the movie plots to be able to write around them and foreshadow them, and the movies and shows ended up going their own ways. The shows still purported to be in the MCU, and stayed as consistent with it as they could, but without the same coordination with the movie division they'd had before. So they stopped connecting as closely and just focused on their own stories.

The season 5 finale tying into Infinity War happened after that split, IIRC, so the makers of AoS had to work in generalities and go by what limited information they had, so the details weren't necessarily completely consistent with how the movie turned out, and they had no way of knowing that Endgame would jump forward 5 years. They tried to handwave things after the fact and claim that season 6 took place before the Snap even though that contradicted the season 5 finale, but they had no choice, because they had to make season 6 without giving away, or perhaps without even knowing, what was going to happen in Endgame.

 

[JD]

While they aren't "canon" the people working on the movies clearly did at least pay some attention to what the shows did since they not only brough James D'Arcy back as Jarvis in Endgame, but they also brought Anson Mount back as Blackbolt in Multiverse of Madness. That one still shocks me, because I had assumed there was no chance anyone would ever acknowledge Inhumans in any way.
So I guess even if they aren't necessarily the same versions from the shows, there's still a chance the other shows' cast members could reprise their characters in the canon movies and shows.

 

[DigificWriter]

There's still a contingent of people who refuse to believe/accept that Agent Carter, Agents of SHIELD, et al have been excluded from MCU Canon despite the preponderance of evidence proving that such is the case, but I shouldn't have gotten as up in arms over said refusal as I have recently.

Pivoting back to talking about Runaways based on its own merits and not its Canonical status, I had originally been wondering whether or not I needed to watch the second episode of the series given that it essentially repeated the events of the Series Premiere, but I'm glad that I figured out that the episode was bookended by stuff that wasn't just a repeat because I would've been doing myself a disservice if I'd skipped it.

 

[camdudetenger2018]

Originally, The Runaways, SHIELD, Cloak & Dagger, and Inhumans were all supposed to be part of the same MCU and were removed from canon when Marvel Studios published their MCU timeline (EDIT: this is from my failing memory and could be incorrect in how we learned they were not part of the MCU.)

lol lol

looks like the runaways cloak and dagger was set in the mcu huluverse

while the inhumans agent carter and i guess agents of shield is in the mcu abcverse

just like how daredevil iron fist jessica jones luke cage and the defenders are in the mcu netflixverse

even thought inhumans agent carter and agents of shield was i guess originally part of the mcu movies universe but it looks like that they were in another mcu universe that looks like the mcu movies universe

the only tv shows that are really officially part of the mcu movies universe are the disney shows like mrs marvel she hulk wandavision and eyes of wakanda

 

[DigificWriter]

the only tv shows that are really officially part of the mcu movies universe are the disney shows like mrs marvel she hulk wandavision and eyes of wakanda

This is officially and objectively false as of last year.

 

[theenglish]

They tried to handwave things after the fact and claim that season 6 took place before the Snap even though that contradicted the season 5 finale, but they had no choice, because they had to make season 6 without giving away, or perhaps without even knowing, what was going to happen in Endgame.

That wouldn't work because Agent Coulson had already died. I honestly don't remember much from the fifth season but I remember enjoying the time travel final season quite a bit.

 

[Christopher]

While they aren't "canon" the people working on the movies clearly did at least pay some attention to what the shows did since they not only brough James D'Arcy back as Jarvis in Endgame, but they also brought Anson Mount back as Blackbolt in Multiverse of Madness. That one still shocks me, because I had assumed there was no chance anyone would ever acknowledge Inhumans in any way.

Endgame's writers were also Agent Carter's showrunners, which is why they brought back Jarvis. There was a direct connection there that the other shows didn't have. Fans are so obsessed with the label "canon" as if labels had actual power or substance, but really what matters is the people involved. Generally what makes something a canon is that it's from a single creator or set of creators, and thus can be kept more consistent within itself than works from different creators who have different interpretations or aren't in regular communication with each other.

As for Mount as Black Bolt, it was a different version from a different universe, so it may have been just a casting gag. Reusing an actor doesn't necessarily mean acknowledging a continuity, since the same actor can always play different versions of a character, like Judi Dench playing M in two James Bond continuities or J.K. Simmons playing J. Jonah Jameson in two different Marvel universes, or all the different animated continuities in which Kevin Conroy voiced Batman. Maybe the producers liked Mount and thought he was let down by Inhumans and deserved another shot at the character.

That wouldn't work because Agent Coulson had already died.

Yes, that's my point. It didn't work, there was no way to make it work, but they were forced to do it anyway because they couldn't reveal Endgame info ahead of its release, if they even knew what to reveal. So even though season 5's finale unambiguously took place during Thanos's invasion of Earth, and even though season 6 took place a year later, they had to sweep the references from the finale under the rug and presume it was still before the Snap, even though that made no sense and they surely knew it didn't. But their hands were tied.

Although I still say season 6 is compatible with a post-Snap world, assuming that most people are still in denial a year later and trying to get on with their lives and avoid talking about it, so that it never came up. It's not impossible that all of the SHIELD team would've avoided being Blipped, because some of the movie casts were wiped out almost entirely (e.g. Ant-Man and Spider-Man) while others were left more or less fully intact (e.g. the Iron Man cast and the core Avengers). And there were recurring AoS characters that we didn't see in season 6, so they could've been Blipped. And all of season 7 took place in the past or alternate timelines, so there's no issue there (which was the point of doing it that way).

 

[JD]

Endgame's writers were also Agent Carter's showrunners, which is why they brought back Jarvis. There was a direct connection there that the other shows didn't have. Fans are so obsessed with the label "canon" as if labels had actual power or substance, but really what matters is the people involved. Generally what makes something a canon is that it's from a single creator or set of creators, and thus can be kept more consistent within itself than works from different creators who have different interpretations or aren't in regular communication with each other.

As for Mount as Black Bolt, it was a different version from a different universe, so it may have been just a casting gag. Reusing an actor doesn't necessarily mean acknowledging a continuity, since the same actor can always play different versions of a character, like Judi Dench playing M in two James Bond continuities or J.K. Simmons playing J. Jonah Jameson in two different Marvel universes, or all the different animated continuities in which Kevin Conroy voiced Batman. Maybe the producers liked Mount and thought he was let down by Inhumans and deserved another shot at the character.

I'm aware of all of this, I just meant that even if they aren't canon, the makers of the movies are still willing to acknowledge them and even bring back elements of them. Which goes to actual point I was making, which is that even if that the producers still willing to acknowledge them, even if they aren't officially part of the canon. Especially with Mount as Black Bolt, they had every reason to recast Black Bolt, but they chose to acknowledge the show and brought Mount back.

 

[theenglish]

Pivoting back to talking about Runaways based on its own merits and not its Canonical status, I had originally been wondering whether or not I needed to watch the second episode of the series given that it essentially repeated the events of the Series Premiere, but I'm glad that I figured out that the episode was bookended by stuff that wasn't just a repeat because I would've been doing myself a disservice if I'd skipped it.

It's not always about pushing the plot forward. I really like The Runaways. Due to an effects budget, it comes across more as a series that would have been on television in the 90s or early 00s. By that I don't mean the effects themselves were poor, rather I mean that the effects are used sparingly. I like that style of storytelling sometimes as it tends to become more character focused. FWIW, I read the comic collections after watching the series and I think the series is much stronger. Cloak and Dagger is much slower and subdued in its style. Although I liked that series overall, it didn't hold my attention the way Runaways did.

It's not impossible that all of the SHIELD team would've avoided being Blipped, because some of the movie casts were wiped out almost entirely (e.g. Ant-Man and Spider-Man) while others were left more or less fully intact (e.g. the Iron Man cast and the core Avengers). And there were recurring AoS characters that we didn't see in season 6, so they could've been Blipped. And all of season 7 took place in the past or alternate timelines, so there's no issue there (which was the point of doing it that way).

IIRC, the ending of Season 5 had all the cast living post-snap with no mention of Infinity War at all. If the studio did want to reintegrate SHIELD into the MCU (and there's no integration that they do), I'm sure an explanation could be made of course.

This is officially and objectively false as of last year.

And it was false up until for the first ten years of the MCU.

 

[Christopher]

I'm aware of all of this, I just meant that even if they aren't canon, the makers of the movies are still willing to acknowledge them and even bring back elements of them.

Of course. One of the weirdest, most backward fan misconceptions about canon is that it's somehow restrictive on the people who create it. What the creators write and make becomes the canon, by definition. Nothing prevents them from taking an idea from a non-canonical source and making it canon by using it.

So a show not being canonical doesn't mean nothing from it can be referenced; it just means that the creators of canon are free to use its elements or contradict them as they see fit. Which is why my policy is that, even if something isn't explicitly counted as part of the canon, I'm willing to treat it as if it is as long as it hasn't been irreconcilably contradicted. Until it's either referenced or contradicted, it's Schroedinger's continuity. It could go either way.

IIRC, the ending of Season 5 had all the cast living post-snap with no mention of Infinity War at all. If the studio did want to reintegrate SHIELD into the MCU (and there's no integration that they do), I'm sure an explanation could be made of course.

You do not RC. The season 5 finale repeatedly stated that Thanos's invasion of Earth was happening during its events, and was the direct catalyst for its events. The assumption of the makers at the time was that the episode took place simultaneously with Infinity War and ended immediately before the Snap. But as I've explained, they were forced by circumstances beyond their control to gloss over that in season 6, creating an inconsistency by pretending that the Snap still hadn't happened a year later, or just ignoring the discrepancy altogether.

And yes, there are two explanations I can think of. One is my handwave that season 6 is actually during the 5-year Blip. The other, proposed by other fans, is that the time travels in season 5 had the characters return to an alternate timeline, one in which Thanos was prevented from completing the Gauntlet and the Snap didn't happen. (Doctor Strange said in the movie that he saw only one timeline where they succeeded against Thanos, but he was referring to possible futures extending forward from that moment. If the SHIELD team had come back to an alternate timeline months earlier, then Thanos could be defeated in their timeline without contradicting Strange. Of course, this also applies to the What If...? episodes where Thanos is stopped.)

 

[DigificWriter]

Personally, I don't see any narrative upside to trying to retrofit Agents of SHIELD into the Sacred Timeline, especially when one of the issues that has plagued the IP from the very beginning is the perception that you have to do a whole bunch of prep work in order to understand and enjoy any particular part of it.

 

[Jayson Poorknees]

Personally, I don't see any narrative upside to trying to retrofit Agents of SHIELD into the Sacred Timeline, especially when one of the issues that has plagued the IP from the very beginning is the perception that you have to do a whole bunch of prep work in order to understand and enjoy any particular part of it.

It will mostly just be adding a few side characters into stories here and there. Daisy is almost a lock. We might see their version of Ghost Rider. Maybe undo Coulson's death with the universe altered. Would love to see Melinda May again . Also if you need a military secondary character just toss in Glenn Talbot.

 

[DigificWriter]

It will mostly just be adding a few side characters into stories here and there. Daisy is almost a lock. We might see their version of Ghost Rider. Maybe undo Coulson's death with the universe altered. Would love to see Melinda May again . Also if you need a military secondary character just toss in Glenn Talbot.

My point stands.

 

[theenglish]

You do not RC. The season 5 finale repeatedly stated that Thanos's invasion of Earth was happening during its events, and was the direct catalyst for its events. The assumption of the makers at the time was that the episode took place simultaneously with Infinity War and ended immediately before the Snap. But as I've explained, they were forced by circumstances beyond their control to gloss over that in season 6, creating an inconsistency by pretending that the Snap still hadn't happened a year later, or just ignoring the discrepancy altogether.

Okay. For some reason, I remember a coda where Coulson was dead and everyone on the team was mourning him. Maybe that was the following season.

 

[JD]

I could have sworn at some point in Season 6 they retconned the references to an invasion in the Season 5 finale into something other than Thanos's attack in Infinity War.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

Okay. For some reason, I remember a coda where Coulson was dead and everyone on the team was mourning him. Maybe that was the following season.

Coulson did die again, but they brought him back as an android with Coulson's memories and personality. I think that version survived the finale.
I used to joke that how Coulson kept dying and being brought back was the most comics accurate aspect of the MCU.

 

[Christopher]

Okay. For some reason, I remember a coda where Coulson was dead and everyone on the team was mourning him. Maybe that was the following season.

Rather, Coulson and May said their goodbyes to the team and were left behind on Tahiti (the real one this time) to live out Coulson's final days. I believe the producers said in interviews that it ended just before the Snap.

I could have sworn at some point in Season 6 they retconned the references to an invasion in the Season 5 finale into something other than Thanos's attack in Infinity War.

Maybe briefly, but it's ambiguous. Due to the forced retcon, there's no way to make every detail fit perfectly into any theory, but that's the way it goes with fiction. Sometimes you just have to gloss over the inconsistencies (like that early issue where Spider-Man was referred to as Peter Palmer).

 

[The Nightmare Doctor]

I could have sworn at some point in Season 6 they retconned the references to an invasion in the Season 5 finale into something other than Thanos's attack in Infinity War.

I think that was only fan speculation to make up the fact that we didn't see them (or anyone else) get dusted.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I believe the comics had Old Man Logan and regular Logan coexisting side by side at same time after Secret Wars, so I don't see why the comics couldn't do the same thing.

That's not what I mean.

Anything is doable storywise. The issue is the business decision end of things. Having two concurrent ongoing versions of Logan in the same universe risks splitting the fanbase over which one is better which could easily result in ongoing bad publicity for the one people like less. And since Logan is a major character that could actually affect ticket sales. It's safer to just have Jackman be the only Logan (not counting minor roles such as Cavillrine) until the MCU is fully ready to move on with someone new.

Especially since the existence (and broad acceptance, thanks to Logan) of Laura means you can have both the older Jackman Wolverine and a younger, more rough-edged, more team-centered Wolverine without ever needing to take the risk of casting a second version of Logan for the X-films.