Perfectly brilliant law enforcement

[Captrek]

Yes, truly the law enforcement officer trained by Cardassians should have been morally perfect.

I'm not saying it's implausible, I just think that's an issue that the writers keep turning to racial profiling when they want to show what a brilliant law enforcement officer Odo is, and don't seem to have any problem with it. It could have been an interesting issue to explore if they had acknowledged it was an issue, but they didn't. They just present it as how effective law enforcement operates. And of course it always works.

Improbable Cause:

ODO: This looks like the remains of a pheromonic sensor.
O'BRIEN: A what?
ODO: It's triggered when a person of a particular species gets within range.
GARAK: In this case a Cardassian. Me.
ODO: They're known to be favoured by Flaxian assassins, and it just so happens a Flaxian came aboard the station just this morning.

This time he doesn't even have the excuse of the accused race having different physiological capabilities. He is explicitly suspecting the man due to a stereotype. And of course he's right. Racial stereotyping consistently works in this show. It's perfectly brilliant.

In "Vortex," Odo accuses Quark on the grounds that the killer used a weapon favored by Ferengi even though, as Quark points out, everyone has access to it. He's right there too.

 

[DonIago]

I asked you first. (And second, and third.)

If that's the best reason you have for not answering your own question then I suspect you're not interested in a serious dialog.

 

[kkt]

I don't even see it as racial profiling. It's profiling by emotional state unreadable by Betazoids, not by race.

 

[Frightscape One]

I'm not saying it's implausible, I just think that's an issue that the writers keep turning to racial profiling when they want to show what a brilliant law enforcement officer Odo is, and don't seem to have any problem with it. It could have been an interesting issue to explore if they had acknowledged it was an issue, but they didn't. They just present it as how effective law enforcement operates. And of course it always works.

Improbable Cause:

This time he doesn't even have the excuse of the accused race having different physiological capabilities. He is explicitly suspecting the man due to a stereotype. And of course he's right. Racial stereotyping consistently works in this show. It's perfectly brilliant.

In "Vortex," Odo accuses Quark on the grounds that the killer used a weapon favored by Ferengi even though, as Quark points out, everyone has access to it. He's right there too.

In "VORTEX", Odo also pointed out that he saw Quark talk to Croden quite a lot... much more than he usually does with other customers. And that it was odd that Croden knew the deal was happening in the first place, and where. Odo was deducing, correctly, all the pieces that were known at the time and concluded Quark was in on the scheme.


As for "IMPROBABLE CAUSE", that kind of sensor being a favorite of Flaxian assassins is obviously a type of technology that seems to be rarely used, if ever, by anyone else. It's the same deduction as discovering a ship that was responsible for destroying a world used an artificial quantum singularity as their engine. And what is, as far as we know, the only race that uses that? Romulans. Therefore, they know to narrow their search to locate a Romulan ship. It's not stereotyping if that species is the only one, or one of the only ones, using it.

For a clearer example of what I mean, TNG's "The Mind's Eye" has a scene in engineering where Data and Geordi are trying to find out if the phaser rifle is authentically Starfleet issue. They discover it isn't, and find evidence that a few races would be able to charge a phaser like that. Data says it could take while to find the one, but Geordi (rightly so) says some common sense would eliminate a lot of suspects. (In that case, who would gain the most from a falling out between the Federation and Klingons.) And they were able to confirm it was Romulans.

 

[Captrek]

If that's the best reason you have for not answering your own question then I suspect you're not interested in a serious dialog.

Nor is anyone who treats this as a battle and applies the martial art of "dodge the enemy's questions and attack his presumed motives or conclusions." If you want me to answer your questions answer mine.

 

[DonIago]

You've already answered my questions.

 

[Captrek]

You've already answered my questions.

Yet neither you nor anyone else has been willing to address mine.

Actually, as I rewatch, I'm noticing a lot of discomfort with the way the show talks about race. For instance, in "Distant Voices":

GARAK: Happy birthday. I know it's a few days off, but I wanted to give you your present early. It's a Cardassian holosuite programme. An adaptation of one of Shoggoth's enigma tales.
BASHIR: Is it? I see.
GARAK: You sound disappointed. I thought you enjoyed mystery novels.
BASHIR: I do. Human mystery novels. The problem with Cardassian enigma tales is that they all end the same way. All the suspects are always guilty.

I think what Bashir means here is Terran mystery novels. Surely there are third- and fourth-generation immigrants on Earth who are nonhuman but culturally Terran. If Bashir's words are taken literally, he wouldn't have any interest in their writings because they're not human.

Come to think of it, there are remarkably few such people in Star Trek. Culture and race are generally treated as identical.

 

[Frightscape One]

Yet neither you nor anyone else has been willing to address mine.

Actually, as I rewatch, I'm noticing a lot of discomfort with the way the show talks about race. For instance, in "Distant Voices":

I think what Bashir means here is Terran mystery novels. Surely there are third- and fourth-generation immigrants on Earth who are nonhuman but culturally Terran. If Bashir's words are taken literally, he wouldn't have any interest in their writings because they're not human.

The only people on Earth that were referred to as 'Terrans' are the Mirror Universe humans. There's no reason for him to use the word 'Terran'.

And why would any nonhuman that lives on Earth (whether first generation or further down the line) automatucally be 'culturally Terran'? What does that even mean?


Honest question: you seem to be turning every bit of dialogue on DS9 where a species is just mentioned into some kind of race issue. Why?

 

[Captrek]

The only people on Earth that were referred to as 'Terrans' are the Mirror Universe humans. There's no reason for him to use the word 'Terran'.

Is he talking out biology or culture? Maybe by the 24th Century the word “human” describes a culture, but today it just refers to what species you are.

And why would any nonhuman that lives on Earth (whether first generation or further down the line) automatucally be 'culturally Terran'? What does that even mean?

In this context, it means being raised with the same kind of literature as Bashir.

And I didn’t say that every nonhuman living on Earth is automatically Terran, I said that surely there are some.

Honest question: you seem to be turning every bit of dialogue on DS9 where a species is just mentioned into some kind of race issue. Why?

I’m uncomfortable with the way law enforcement works on this show.

Step 1: Identify the race of the perpetrator.
Step 2: Grab the closest person of that race.
Step 3: Bingo, got your guy! Works every time.

 

[Frightscape One]

Is he talking out biology or culture? Maybe by the 24th Century the word “human” describes a culture, but today it just refers to what species you are.


In this context, it means being raised with the same kind of literature as Bashir.


I’m uncomfortable with the way law enforcement works on this show.

Step 1: Identify the race of the perpetrator.
Step 2: Grab the closest person of that race.
Step 3: Bingo, got your guy! Works every time.

But "DISTANT VOICES" has no law enforcement dialogue, yet you are calling up Bashir's lunch with Garak and his preference of human mystery novels. So it seems like you're creating an issue where none exists.


And regarding the instances in "VORTEX", "THE FORSAKEN", and "IMPROBABLE CAUSE", there's other evidence that supports the result than just grabbing the closest person of that race.



Also, again, why would any nonhuman living on Earth automatically be 'culturally Terran'? Just because you live on the planet doesn't mean you absorb their culture completely.

 

[Captrek]

But "DISTANT VOICES" has no law enforcement dialogue, yet you are calling up Bashir's lunch with Garak and his preference of human mystery novels. So it seems like you're creating an issue where none exists.

Because of the Star Trek race-species analogy. It’s normal for Westerners to prefer Western literature, not “White” literature. Bashir describes his preferred literature by the race of its author, not their culture.

And regarding the instances in "VORTEX", "THE FORSAKEN", and "IMPROBABLE CAUSE", there's other evidence that supports the result than just grabbing the closest person of that race.

In Improbable Cause there absolutely isn’t. Odo just says it’s the kind of crime that would be committed by a Flaxian and there happens to be exactly one Flaxian on the station, so that’s the suspect.

Also, again, why would any nonhuman living on Earth automatically be 'culturally Terran'? Just because you live on the planet doesn't mean you absorb their culture completely.

I didn’t say that every nonhuman living on Earth would automatically be culturally Terran, I said that surely there are some. Especially second or third generation. Just like most second- or third-generation Americans are culturally American.

 

[Frightscape One]

Because of the Star Trek race-species analogy. It’s normal for Westerners to prefer Western literature, not “White” literature. Bashir describes his preferred literature by the race of its author, not their culture.



In Improbable Cause there absolutely isn’t. Odo just says it’s the kind of crime that would be committed by a Flaxian and there happens to be exactly one Flaxian on the station, so that’s the suspect.




I didn’t say that every nonhuman living on Earth would automatically be culturally Terran, I said that surely there are some. Especially second or third generation. Just like most second- or third-generation Americans are culturally American.

I know you didn't say 'all' nonhumans living on Earth. I said 'any'... twice. (Both times you even quoted me.) 'Any' means any number at all, whether it's 1 or a million. Especially since the Federation is very open about other races celebrating their own cultures, why would you think any nonhuman ones living on Earth would leave their own culture behind? As an example, in Miami, there are a lot of people who have been here for decades (and also others who are second or third generation) who, culturally, are cuban/spanish/South American/etc. but not really American, culturally, for various reasons. (Preference of their own culture vs. American, simply wanting to keep their own cultural identity, the wish to pass traditions down the line, or a multitude of other reasons.)


Also, I still don't see a problem with what Bashir said to Garak. He simply prefers human style mystery novels. Just because someone has a style preference doesn't mean they are racist about others who are not that style. (For example: if someone is attracted to asian men or women doesn't mean they are racist toward everyone else. It just means that asians are their preference.) I find that kind of argument absolutely ridiculous.


And in "IMPROBABLE CAUSE", Odo didn't say the CRIME (assassination) was something favored by a Flaxian. He said the TECHNOLOGY used in the crime (pheromonic sensor) was favored by Flaxian assassins. And Odo, remembering one did appear on the station that day, correctly brought him to the wardroom for questioning to find proof. He went where the evidence at that point took him.

Like someone else mentioned in this thread, if a crime was committed that required an absurdly tall person, who are you going to look at first: a basketball team or a bunch of hobbits?

 

[Captrek]

I know you didn't say 'all' nonhumans living on Earth. I said 'any'... twice. (Both times you even quoted me.) 'Any' means any number at all, whether it's 1 or a million. Especially since the Federation is very open about other races celebrating their own cultures, why would you think any nonhuman ones living on Earth would leave their own culture behind? As an example, in Miami, there are a lot of people who have been here for decades (and also others who are second or third generation) who, culturally, are cuban/spanish/South American/etc. but not really American, culturally, for various reasons. (Preference of their own culture vs. American, simply wanting to keep their own cultural identity, the wish to pass traditions down the line, or a multitude of other reasons.)

True. There are also people who are more assimilated. I know many of them myself. In fact, my mother’s son and biological father are Mexican, but there’s nothing Mexican about him. He doesn’t even speak Spanish.

 

[Tosk]

If Bashir's words are taken literally

Then let's not. IMO, Bashir is less saying that he will only read human books and is more specifically just saying that he doesn't like Cardassian mystery novels. (Although we already know that he didn't care for The Neverending Sacrifice too, but for different reasons than his dislike of Cardie mysteries.)

So maybe the Cardassian approach to fiction just doesn't appeal to Bashir. He's read several, so he's basing his opinion on actually trying them at least.

...Or maybe you're right and he truly does only enjoying reading books that were written from an Earthling's mindset. If so, no crime in that.

 

[Ragitsu]

By the way, is this Betazoid inability to sense Ferengi emotions a continuity error? Consider the following scene from TNG's "The Price" ->

TROI: Excuse me, Premier. There's something you should know. I'm sorry, was there something you wanted to say?
RAL: No, not at all.
TROI: I sensed you suddenly felt uncomfortable.
RAL: Well, after all, it was a very tense situation.
TROI: But that's what's so odd. It wasn't tense at all. In fact, I sensed no tension from you or Goss.
GOSS [on viewscreen]: But I was tense! I was ready to blow it up! I strongly protest!

"Goss" is Daimon Goss...a Ferengi; furthermore, Deanna is only half Betazoid.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

She has the innate sense of her human side and her training as a counselor to fill in where her Betazoid senses are lacking, I suppose.

 

[Tosk]

By the way, is this Betazoid inability to sense Ferengi emotions a continuity error? Consider the following scene from TNG's "The Price" ->

It was retconned way back in TNG not too long after The Price, in Ménage à Troi.

"We Betazeds are uncomfortable with species like the Ferengi whose minds we can't read."

And y'know, if one wanted to get real nitpicky about it Deanna never actually says she can read Goss. She says she can't sense tension in Goss.

 

[Ragitsu]

It was retconned way back in TNG not too long after The Price, in Ménage à Troi.

"We Betazeds are uncomfortable with species like the Ferengi whose minds we can't read."

And y'know, if one wanted to get real nitpicky about it Deanna never actually says she can read Goss. She says she can't sense tension in Goss.

I could discuss how the dialogue regarding Deanna's insight into Goss isn't quite right if the writers - at that point in time - had settled on Ferengi immunity to telepathy (and telepathic-adjacent powers), but you've pointed out the retcon and so I will still my tongue...er, fingers. Regardless, here is one for the road from TNG's "The Last Outpost" ->

TROI: I'm sensing nothing from them Captain. Which could mean they can shield their thoughts and emotions from others.

...

TROI: I sensed the same thing, Captain. He's hiding something.

The first line of dialogue is spoken before the Ferengi are properly introduced to the audience; the second line of dialogue was spoken after DaiMon Tarr introduces himself to Picard. Apparently, the writer(s) couldn't reach a decision until the end of Season 3?