• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Poll Would you purchase a legit remaster of DS9?

Would you purchase a legit remaster of DS9?

  • Yes

    Votes: 45 81.8%
  • No

    Votes: 10 18.2%

  • Total voters
    55
You are describing the limitations of current technology.

You haven't seen what AI can do. You have only seen what it can do today.

It's not magic now, and it won't be magic 10 years from now, also what you're describing isn't here yet, it might plateau tomorrow for the next 20 years.
35mm is reliable, and has the actual image on it, not a generic mathematical model.
Also, I don't care what it can do 10 years from now, imo, I look at a natural image and admire it for a reason, not to admire something a computer can shit out.
An artist makes an image, and a computer merely shits it out with no effort.
The costume designers, the prop masters, the set designers, the actors, the cinematographer, Lighting...
All of these people worked to produce a beautiful crisp textured image on 35mm film.
No AI model can surpass 35mm film if it's working with analog tape.
There's a wide shot from Emissary with Picard, and it looks like a video game NPC talking and not Picard.
There's another one from "Q-less", where John DeLancie's face is the same.
There are wide shots of Odo, where it would smear detail as Odo spoke, the 35mm would have more than enough fidelity and information there to see Rene Auberjonois give that performance.
Plenty of other shots get ruined by AI smearing it.
There's a shot from Voyager, where Tuvok's face looks very feminine, in low res you can tell it's Tim Russ, in High Res, it smeared it into some androgynous mess.
Maybe it can get good enough to see what I see and reconstruct it, but that would take an academic time to identify and name those issues, much less develop code and models that can predict and guess how that works, and quality is like an onion.
With 35mm film, you bypass those problems entirely, because, there's no guesswork, it's just scan what we got that day.
That's reliable, simple, and easy to do.
The AI requires a lot of other steps that are far more complicated.
That being said, for missing footage it's a good tool.
For automating the assembly of a new master, once you've scanned the image, "iConform" is a tool that's been used since 2012.
It uses the original tape master as a template, and with some human oversight, can identify the correct take, and overlay that film scan onto the tape, and produce a high definition master.
It was used to do X files, The Shield, The Wire, Baywatch and TNG season 2.
To say a computer should ever replace that, disgusts me, and should disgust anyone.
We admire the beauty of an image, because it wasn't exactly made by a factory (There's a more complicated argument we can have...DS9 is fiction, Hollywood is an industry.)
But IMO, to let a model alter that right now, is insulting.
Again, in 10 years an AI might be good sometimes, but here's the thing any moron can do it.
Only the studio can take care of a legitimate asset.
I don't want to watch AI Wizard of OZ, I want the real thing.
 
An artist makes an image, and a computer merely shits it out with no effort.
The costume designers, the prop masters, the set designers, the actors, the cinematographer, Lighting...
All of these people worked to produce a beautiful crisp textured image on 35mm film.
No, all of these people worked to produce the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine that we saw on TV in the 90’s. All I require from an HD version is that it look good on modern TVs and be faithful to the show they produced. You apparently require it to be faithful to how things looked on set, but that’s not what those artists were concerned about and not what I’m concerned about.

The film negatives exist now, and are ready to scan now.
If they could do that profitably they’d have done it by now. They apparently can’t.
 
Last edited:
No, all of these people worked to produce the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine that we saw on TV in the 90’s. All I require from an HD version is that it look good on modern TVs and be faithful to the show they produced. You apparently require it to be faithful to how things looked on set, but that’s not what those artists were concerned about and not what I’m concerned about.


If they could do that profitably they’d have done it by now. They apparently can’t.

Severance runs 20 million an episode now, and doesn't pull the numbers to justify a 200 million dollar per season budget.
Alien Earth costs 70 million an episode now, the viewership is somewhere north of 400,000 people.
That means the profits for an episode of Alien Earth per week are -65million dollars.
Again, that can't work profitably for Disney.
The system's accounting department has a broad definition of how profits and tax writeoffs work.
If remastering DS9 cost 12 million dollars, it's chump change, it's 12 million for 178 hours of content and all takes.
*You're simply redoing post production.
Alien Earth is 500 million dollars an 8 episode season, outflanking Shogun's budget.
 
No, all of these people worked to produce the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine that we saw on TV in the 90’s. All I require from an HD version is that it look good on modern TVs and be faithful to the show they produced. You apparently require it to be faithful to how things looked on set, but that’s not what those artists were concerned about and not what I’m concerned about.


If they could do that profitably they’d have done it by now. They apparently can’t.

That's because AI destroys faces, and that won't be something that's fixed with that technology any time soon.
I require that actor's performance be preserved and the record is the 35mm film negative.
That's what faithful is.
I don't want an AI destroying 50 percent or even 1 percent of Avery Brooks' performance, or Armin Shimmerman's performance.
You seem to want an experimental technology to destroy those things.
It's the death of artistry, and yeah, I do want on set accuracy, that's where the true artistry was, that artistry didn't come from an algorithm,
It came from human hands.
 
If remastering DS9 cost 12 million dollars, it's chump change, it's 12 million for 178 hours of content and all takes.
*You're simply redoing post production.
No. You are most certainly not. The fact that some of the files for the various FX shots are still existing doesn’t mean that they are basically done. They would have to be adapted to current rendering environments and rendered anew. And that’s only talking about the FX shots for which the original files can still be located. For every file that still exists on someone’s hard drive I’m sure there’s one where the files are just lost forever and the effects would have to be redone. And that’s not even taking into account effects like Odo’s morphing and the wormhole, where it’s not just the matter of some computer file existing, but the fact that you would have to recompose the effects with the live action footage.

It’s obviously not impossible to do and I very much would like for them to attempt it, but please stop portraying it as something that would be super easy and affordable to do. They would be stupid if at this point they hadn’t crunched the numbers and determined that it’s just not feasible. It doesn’t matter that you seem to be convinced it would only require some “chump change”. That’s simply illusory.

I’ll agree with you that using AI to “remaster” the show would be a massive misstep, though, as that would have nothing to do with remastering or preserving the show that was originally produced.
 
No. You are most certainly not. The fact that some of the files for the various FX shots are still existing doesn’t mean that they are basically done. They would have to be adapted to current rendering environments and rendered anew. And that’s only talking about the FX shots for which the original files can still be located. For every file that still exists on someone’s hard drive I’m sure there’s one where the files are just lost forever and the effects would have to be redone. And that’s not even taking into account effects like Odo’s morphing and the wormhole, where it’s not just the matter of some computer file existing, but the fact that you would have to recompose the effects with the live action footage.

It’s obviously not impossible to do and I very much would like for them to attempt it, but please stop portraying it as something that would be super easy and affordable to do. They would be stupid if at this point they hadn’t crunched the numbers and determined that it’s just not feasible. It doesn’t matter that you seem to be convinced it would only require some “chump change”. That’s simply illusory.
Odo's morphing is used in a handful of shots throughout the show.
The wormhole asset was literally rerendered and stepped up for "What We Left Behind" and many models for overbuilt.
For DS9, the problem was space battles, a season and a half, as most of it was model shots.
The VFX are so basic fans can do them in their living room on a common desktop.
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
The Roddenberry Archive has new models, and .lwo files can be run in blender or newer versions of lightwave.
Yeah, there's labor involved, but it's peanuts in cost compared to new content, and would look as good.
This was state of the art tech in 1992, and is basic bitch FX by today's standards.
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
This truth also applies to Babylon 5, and diffusion upscalers can take care of money for shots of ships you don't want to waste money on.
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
If you want to see it happen, you can look at the history, there isn't really an argument that can justify not remastering it at this point.
 
No. You are most certainly not. The fact that some of the files for the various FX shots are still existing doesn’t mean that they are basically done. They would have to be adapted to current rendering environments and rendered anew. And that’s only talking about the FX shots for which the original files can still be located. For every file that still exists on someone’s hard drive I’m sure there’s one where the files are just lost forever and the effects would have to be redone. And that’s not even taking into account effects like Odo’s morphing and the wormhole, where it’s not just the matter of some computer file existing, but the fact that you would have to recompose the effects with the live action footage.

It’s obviously not impossible to do and I very much would like for them to attempt it, but please stop portraying it as something that would be super easy and affordable to do. They would be stupid if at this point they hadn’t crunched the numbers and determined that it’s just not feasible. It doesn’t matter that you seem to be convinced it would only require some “chump change”. That’s simply illusory.

I’ll agree with you that using AI to “remaster” the show would be a massive misstep, though, as that would have nothing to do with remastering or preserving the show that was originally produced.
As for the wormhole asset.

Using AI to smear the current masters would probably look worse than Andromeda.
Upscaling is an art, that some fans can get to look okay, under circumstances (even then they'd prefer a rescanned version, that didn't have depth and colors crushed out by ancient video tape technology, and ccd scanners that got too hot leaving streaks of light, or odd chroma keying where double lines appear "Emissary" being an example of one of the worst masters you can lay your eyes on.
If you handled upscaling the way the studio would, you would set a deadline, and make it look worse than a fan upscale.
IMO, if you can already get a fan upscale on the internet, why would you buy the studio's even worse upscale?
Checkerboarding artifacts galore...i.e. Stargate SG1 on bluray. It would be terrible.
Great episode, but needs to be thoroughly remastered.
It looks like dogshit on today's screens.
It's not impossible to do, if TNG can be done, Babylon 5 can be done, and "The Wire" can be redone, it's possible.
If X files can be redone...it's possible.
 
Odo's morphing is used in a handful of shots throughout the show.
The wormhole asset was literally rerendered and stepped up for "What We Left Behind" and many models for overbuilt.
For DS9, the problem was space battles, a season and a half, as most of it was model shots.
The VFX are so basic fans can do them in their living room on a common desktop.
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
The Roddenberry Archive has new models, and .lwo files can be run in blender or newer versions of lightwave.
Yeah, there's labor involved, but it's peanuts in cost compared to new content, and would look as good.
This was state of the art tech in 1992, and is basic bitch FX by today's standards.
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
This truth also applies to Babylon 5, and diffusion upscalers can take care of money for shots of ships you don't want to waste money on.
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
If you want to see it happen, you can look at the history, there isn't really an argument that can justify not remastering it at this point.
Cool, but I’m not sure what you’re even arguing anymore. All of what you are saying means the effects would have to be redone. And that’s all I want to make clare. You claimed they’d have to “simply redoing post production”, which makes it sound like it’s not a big deal. Redoing all the visual effect for a science-fiction show like Deep Space Nine would be a massive undertaking.

But also, while I like what they did for “What We Left Behind”, I don’t remember the wormhole effect looking like the real deal. If the goal is to preserve the show as faithfully to the original as possible, they would have to do better.
 
Cool, but I’m not sure what you’re even arguing anymore. All of what you are saying means the effects would have to be redone. And that’s all I want to make clare. You claimed they’d have to “simply redoing post production”, which makes it sound like it’s not a big deal. Redoing all the visual effect for a science-fiction show like Deep Space Nine would be a massive undertaking.

But also, while I like what they did for “What We Left Behind”, I don’t remember the wormhole effect looking like the real deal. If the goal is to preserve the show as faithfully to the original as possible, they would have to do better.
It's not a small deal, but it's not a big deal. It's a mid deal.
It creates jobs, fans are happy, film is preserved (It's a trifecta.)
Illuminate's iconform automates editing, and conforms all scanned footage into a pristine master.
As for FX, you have options.
I don't care if you upscale shots of ships or models, Diffusion upscales don't look that bad for that.
I'm arguing if you can do that for 12 million bucks (chump change), and it's going to generate more revenue than new content that's 70 million an episode. there's literally no reason not to do it.

Also, the wormhole looks like the real deal to me.
QrK3ed7
 
Also, the wormhole looks like the real deal to me.
If that’s the recreated effects shot from “What We Left Behind” I take back what I said, because I definitely misremembered it looking different. And yes, this looks very much like the real deal. :bolian:

It's not a small deal, but it's not a big deal. It's a mid deal.
It creates jobs, fans are happy, film is preserved (It's a trifecta.)
Illuminate's iconform automates editing, and conforms all scanned footage into a pristine master.
As for FX, you have options.
I don't care if you upscale shots of ships or models, Diffusion upscales don't look that bad for that.
I'm arguing if you can do that for 12 million bucks (chump change), and it's going to generate more revenue than new content that's 70 million an episode. there's literally no reason not to do it.
Well, you don’t exactly have to convince me. Because as I said, I very much would like them to do all that as well. Still, I do think you’re underestimating the costs and efforts that would need to go into this and I think you’re portraying it as something they basically could do easily.
 
My argument is not that it's labor intensive, any one of these projects is.
My argument is that it's affordable, and not as hard as people make it out to be, and it's not even a moderately budgeted project by today's bespoke standard.
I think the studio has sabotaged efforts to get DS9 and Voyager remastered.
But I do think, it's important to let paramount know, I left a link above, everyone should write them that wants this to happen.
It's more than a survey here, I think if you want it to happen, go to the link I've provided and write them.
Also, any project could piggyback of this:

Go explore this, it's wild, not only that, imagine them preserving all libraries for VFX and assets.
It suddenly becomes even less hard to do.
 
Dear Lord this topic got out of hand.

Yes, I would purchase it because Deep Space Nine IS Star Trek. And it will never happen because not enough people care commercially enough about it for it matter.


#modspleaseclosethisuselesstopic
 
Dear Lord this topic got out of hand.

Yes, I would purchase it because Deep Space Nine IS Star Trek. And it will never happen because not enough people care commercially enough about it for it matter.


#modspleaseclosethisuselesstopic
From what I've seen, more than enough people care.
Or this wouldn't be a topic that has survived for as long as it has.
 
From what I've seen, more than enough people care.
Or this wouldn't be a topic that has survived for as long as it has.

You can't use the TrekBBS or some dudes complaining on Reddit as a gauge of the totality of fan interest. CBS/Paramount feels that it is not financially viable for them to spend the time and money to remaster DS9 and VOY because they don't believe enough people will fork out money for BDs, especially since they can just stream the show on P+ once a remaster is done. The sales of TNG-R apparently proved this.
 
You can't use the TrekBBS or some dudes complaining on Reddit as a gauge of the totality of fan interest. CBS/Paramount feels that it is not financially viable for them to spend the time and money to remaster DS9 and VOY because they don't believe enough people will fork out money for BDs, especially since they can just stream the show on P+ once a remaster is done. The sales of TNG-R apparently proved this.
I disagree, and I'm going to continue to disagree.
I don't ask that you agree with me, but I disagree with you.

It's one of the most frequently asked questions.
...and CBS shot itself on the foot having TNG's bluray compete with Netflix while charging a bespoke price.
LOST was 65 a set when it was a new show.
TNG should've been priced around 65-75 a set, not 99.
Especially when you consider that HBO failed to charge 100 bucks a pop for Carnivale, and that failed miserably.
Whatever HBO does with pricing don't do it, that should always be a rule.

My metric for pricing is like this,
Most people die in their late 70s and early 80s, selling boxsets parallels that, No one sane is buying the moment you cross 85 bucks.
 
My argument is not that it's labor intensive, any one of these projects is.
My argument is that it's affordable, and not as hard as people make it out to be, and it's not even a moderately budgeted project by today's bespoke standard.
Are you a studio head or someone experienced with post-production work, for that matter? Are you an expert in budgeting home video projects of this nature? Who are you to say whether rebuilding DS9 or Voyager in HD would be an affordable project in terms of studio operations?

So far, your argument amounts to "I really really really wanna see it, but those evil suits at Paramount won't open their pocketbooks."
 
You can't use the TrekBBS or some dudes complaining on Reddit as a gauge of the totality of fan interest. CBS/Paramount feels that it is not financially viable for them to spend the time and money to remaster DS9 and VOY because they don't believe enough people will fork out money for BDs, especially since they can just stream the show on P+ once a remaster is done. The sales of TNG-R apparently proved this.

Hot damn. We don't always agree, but when we do....
 
Are you a studio head or someone experienced with post-production work, for that matter? Are you an expert in budgeting home video projects of this nature? Who are you to say whether rebuilding DS9 or Voyager in HD would be an affordable project in terms of studio operations?

So far, your argument amounts to "I really really really wanna see it, but those evil suits at Paramount won't open their pocketbooks."

Did I not break down numbers and debunk every other thing?
Did I not go off of Mojo Liebowitz' facebook breakdown?
What part am I missing?
The Price is 12 million.
And yes, I really, really want to see it, and those evil suits are holding it back, I'm not ashamed to admit that, it's the truth.
AI also looks like dogshit.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top