Or they were the closest captains whose schedules would fit around time-consuming court proceedings, for an in-universe explanation.
That Starbase 11 wall chart - noe in slide form
- Thread starter ChallengerHK
- Start date
To me, its giving Stone the greenlight to release the Intrepid and move to another ship. IMO, I think Stone was keen to get the Enterprise quickly patched up so Kirk would be forced to stay at Starbase and Enterprise could be appointed a new captain. I don't think Stone expected Kirk to get away from his court martial. (The only downside to this theory is that Enterprise is next most complete under Intrepid).
One could be even free climbing a cliff face...
What if some of the ships on the chart are actually being built at the Starbase, a opposed to being in for repairs? That would partially justify why so many ships appear on the chart. IOW, at this time there were not yet "12 like her (the E) in the fleet".
Points for thinking outside of the box, but there are a lot of numbers less than 1701 there.
Yes, but that's my point. The numbers less than 1701 might be ships of various types that are undergoing repairs and/or are being refitted to Constitution specs? This speaks to the criticism that so many Connies (of "the12") were all there at one time, since relatively few (4) of the 1700 series -and thus presumed to be like the Enterprise- are actually at Starbase 11 for whatever reason, the rest of "the 12" are all out doing their jobs of exploring and protecting the Federation.
PS. Of the 1700 series only 1700 and possibly 1703 are likely being repaired, whereas 1709 and 1718 might be new builds that have not yet entered active service, assuming not all of "the 12" yet exist as operational vessels at this point?
Last edited:
Ah, yes, I see what you mean. Not storm damage, battle damage, or any other kind of damage needing repair in some or even many cases, but being upgraded? And a couple of new builds from scratch? Sure!
In TOS context that might work, The Menagerie had come out at this point, so it is established that the USS Enterprise is over a decade old at this point in time.
As things go on, this becomes odder. The inclusion of USS Constellation is one from TOS, but with DIS and SNW, we know USS Defiant entered service before 2257, so it took has been in service for about a decade or more.
It could be they are running out of this type of Starship in the later half of the 2260s. With only a dozen at the specs of USS Enterprise. Tomorrow is Yesterday was the episode immediately before Court Martial in broadcast.
As things go on, this becomes odder. The inclusion of USS Constellation is one from TOS, but with DIS and SNW, we know USS Defiant entered service before 2257, so it took has been in service for about a decade or more.
It could be they are running out of this type of Starship in the later half of the 2260s. With only a dozen at the specs of USS Enterprise. Tomorrow is Yesterday was the episode immediately before Court Martial in broadcast.
when Kirk makes the pronouncement. I mean, since he was trying to be vague, any truthful but vague statement should work.
That’s certainly what I was showing on my visualization of Stone’s chart. Excelsior (1718) with her new linear nacelles was just completed and undergoing trials. Defiant (1709) has just been refit to deep space (430 crew) configuration and given the longer secondary hull and hangar implied in TAS.
Last edited:
Problem is, if chronological, Defiant 1764 already is in service by now. Kongo should be as well. If we go by Picard season 3, Reliant is as well due to MA having it listed on the chart forever. I think that's why we need to get this chart right. Though, in my head canon, if it's 1831, it should be the Miranda herself as its pretty close to the Lantree.
So here's our current possibilities for 12 Connie.
Enterprise
Intrepid
Lexington
Defiant
Excalibur
Hood
Potemkin
Constellation
{New Jersey}
Cayuga (destroyed)
1700
Exeter
Eagle (surely was a refit ship)
With the possibilities of
Republic
Valiant
Yorktown ???
Merrimac
Kongo
Endeavour ???
Intrepid II
1685
1697
1718
1831 if we still believe that's a thing.
And never mentioned
Constitution herself.
I am a firm believer that Yorktown became the Enterprise-A and that Tuvok dad served on the Excelsior class one. Willing to bet its Ncc-2004 that's listed on the Ent-b nav panel.
Last edited:
Not at all. The main arguments in favor of the chart being a repair status at this point are largely emotional/subjective.
I made the point that the danger to the Enterprise shows that many ships were not present. To the point that ten ships are on the chart with three at levels near the Enterprise upon her arrival, I'm told that this makes Kirk into a monster because he didn't realize noting her presence would send Finney into a murderous rage rather than produce negotiation. There's also the suggestion that the ships are immobilized despite the slightly-better Enterprise having arrived under her own power, which seems like wishful thinking.
The other main surviving argument seems to be over the 'need' for the chart from a story perspective, as opposed to it being just set dressing that helps sell this as a base in charge of ships and Stone as in charge.
But, I covered that in my first message on this subtopic.
The "Measure of a Man" chart had zero to do with anything in the story . . . it was there to fill in the viewscreen on the battle bridge set. I bet Riker even looked at it at one point in his courtroom efforts.
Similarly, "STAR SHIP STATUS" / "% COMPLETE" doesn't give the status of Maintenance Section 18 or realistically indicate how long repairs will take for any vessel or provide any clues as to what's broken on the ships listed. And, of course, there's the big honking gap of having the supposed repairs be 80% complete on a ship whose captain has just made "a full report of damages" to the base commander, with never-before-pulled computer logs, and with repairs only noted as being in progress afterward.
I ask you, what was at 82% complete? Had Scotty done 80% of the work? Then why the layover for just a couple of days and why would it even show as work done on the Starbase's chart? The "repair base" chart shouldn't include it.
It objectively cannot be repair status, ship readiness, or anything else other than mission status. The ships on the list are not ships that are present at Starbase 11, but apparently a list of vessels of a certain registry range that may have 11 as a command base at that time.
The eye line thing is bogus, but yes, the actor is gazing upon the chart immediately before looking at his other desk screen and changing the task of Maintenance Section 18.
That was likely actor/director blocking rather than script (had the chart not been there he might have simply been looking out the window instead), but I'd love to see the script to know for sure.
Either way, that supports my view more than yours, to wit:
That was Jein's suggestion also, but it really doesn't make sense. There would be no need for a maintenance section to be attached to a ship marked as having repairs complete. Back when I thought this was a repair status also, then the natural follow-up at this point was to curse the silly Jein reverse-alphabetical schtick.
However, if the Intrepid was simply done with her mission rather than repairs, then it makes perfect sense.
Funny, I was told this was a repair base. How could that screen be off if repairs are ongoing at the repair base?
Ask Commodore Mendez who ran the same base later that year.
Kirk learned it while dealing with a crazed Finney, and like two seconds later noted that she was probably already aboard, which drove Finney to murderous rage rather than negotiation. We don't know when Finney did the deed specifically, but we do know that this effort at a subjective emotionalist counterargument is not working. Besides which, maybe you ought to watch "The Omega Glory" and get back to me on Kirk's willingness to have a female hostage in the first place.
What makes you think Spock knew anything about it?
I feel bad even quoting this embarrassing paragraph to reject it, but none of this is any good. You want a Commander to kick a Commodore off the bridge, you think Spock even knew of the visitor, and you then do mind-reading to concoct a safety margin even for the previously unknown sabotage. You do the same mumbo-jumbo a few lines later when you claim:
Nobody in the bar said anything about the computer record. Jamie's breakdown accusation came without it, too. You're just making stuff up now.
You accept the chart as a repair status for ships at the base, do you not? That's ten.
I mean, I literally answered that question, in the context of how Spock and everybody else on the bridge knew that Finney had tapped out the main circuits. The intercom was open. Everyone heard every word that was said between Kirk and Finney. As soon as Kirk told Finney, Spock knew, assuming that, as executive officer, he didn't know already.
Even if they're all Starship-class, and there's no distinction that exists in universe between Starship-class vessels and "star ships," which itself is not certain, the fact that the chart is tracking "status" and "% complete" would mean that it's quite possible, probable even, that some if not many or most of the vessels are not considered fully operational. So, no, the answer is not necessarily ten and could easily be a much lower number, for either reason, even if (as I do believe) every single vessel listed on the chart was physically present at the Starbase 11 facility.
But she is having repairs done, since there were repair crews aboard
... and they wouldn't have needed to be there if the ship was at 100% complete, now would they? You have to invent an excuse for them to still be hanging around, which was the very point. It doesn't work.
Your original argument was that Kirk wouldn't have put Jamie in danger. Once reminded of the correct timeline of when Kirk learned of the sabotage, your new argument was that he wouldn't have left her in danger. When again reminded of the correct timeline of how long it was between sabotage and Finney's attack, your new argument is that Spock should've evacuated her.
It's really quite tiresome. All of this is simply to avoid the fact that the ship and her passengers were in mortal danger, mortal danger that would've been entirely avoidable had there been nine other ships at Starbase 11 per the "repair status" assumption, with at least three close to the state of the Enterprise that had arrived under her own power and which, per the mere "couple of days" required to bring the Enterprise to 100%, per your assumption, ought to have been at least as close to ready status.
I think you lost the thread of conversation. You were arguing that there were not 10 captains present. Now you're shifting to operational ships. That's a change of subject.
Were there or were there not 10 ships present at Starbase 11? Don't quibble about the Intrepid possibly departing . . . stick to the chart.
@DSG2k, you've grossly misrepresented my words and put words in my mouth, on multiple occasions. You've characterized my remarks as "tiresome" and "embarrassing".
That's utterly ridiculous.
I'm done here.
Cheers!
And you've implied that Kirk's actions in "Court Martial" were comparable to holding Jamie hostage.
That's utterly ridiculous.
I'm done here.
Cheers!
