The two starship captains weren't shipped in. They were seen before the court martial proceedings in the M-11 Starbase Club. Apparently, this was the result of editing the episode.
That Starbase 11 wall chart - noe in slide form
- Thread starter ChallengerHK
- Start date
Did you forget all the talk of people dying?
Kirk: "Why kill innocent people?"
Finney: "Innocent? Officers and gentlemen, Captains all."
...
Kirk: "It's not too late. You can be helped, but if you kill those people ..."
Finney: "Why shouldn't I? They killed me, didn't they? It's a fair trade."
Kirk then reveals Jamie was aboard and Finney freaks out (more). The "captains all" comment would seem to specify the board, not the Starbase 11 population or anything else.
So your argument is that a dozen starships were present but none of those captains were willing to perform their duty?
If it leads to more absurdities to keep the unnecessary assumption, then the assumption is bad.
Oof . . . and in dress uniform for trial, even. That badly contradicts the Captain's Log that "the officers who will comprise my court-martial board are proceeding to Starbase 11".
Yes, that was written on one of his numerous drawings, but it wasn't carried over to the painting that Gene Roddenberry was sold on. Given that the question was, as you quoted, "do we have any evidence that this plan was held onto -- or even conveyed to the others involved in the production in a memorable way -- versus being given up at some point?", that's not much. As far as I know, no one else knew of this idea, and as you noted earlier it didn't even emerge for a long while.
Indeed, Jefferies's own recollection was that he didn't share that tidbit with anyone.
That said, if we're going to use the 17th idea and suppose from it that the Constellation is a refit, we would also need to stick an extra C on the end (given its easy availability) to match the modification lettering on that same page. Neither happened, because Jefferies didn't insist upon that idea, or (as he suggested) even share it.
So, as I suggested, I don't think we should get too hung up on that thought . . . its thinker certainly didn't.
I mean, do you seriously believe that Kirk would deliberately put an innocent like Jamie in immediate danger?! Or that Stone would allow it, for that matter, who explicitly said they would stay to hear the witness out instead of beaming off??
Finney was trying to endanger everybody clearly, but he was deranged. Whatever Kirk said to him, a deranged man, to try to negotiate with him, isn't evidence of anything factual, especially when there are other story elements which directly support a contrary assessment of the situation.
There was a situation that could not be allowed to continue certainly, but the behavior of the characters tells us that it is no immediate need for additional aid.
And anyway, how do you know there wasn't another ship standing by, aware of the situation, just in case things got out of hand? With all the personnel beamed off and a flag officer aboard you'd think there would at least be Starbase personnel intimately aware of what was going on.
Still no need to retcon the chart.
That's your argument, not mine.
Kirk's intent was to bring her aboard in the hopes that she would be able to calm Finney. That was before learning of the sabotage. Once he learned of this sabotage, he made note that she was there in the hopes that Finney would cut the crap, but instead became locked in combat.
Or that Stone would allow it, for that matter, who explicitly said they would stay to hear the witness out instead of beaming off??
Stone didn't know why Cogley departed. He wasn't told.
You may want to reconsider your attitude, e.g. use of the laugh emoticon. It isn't going well for you.
"With luck, I would be able to effect repairs before our orbit decayed completely."
Why rely on luck if there was a ship with tractor beam handy?
1. You haven't demonstrated that by your argumentation.
2. It's not a retcon. It's rejection of an invalid assumption.
The supposition is supported by the episode and I could give a rat's ass what fanwankery Okuda did in TOS-R.
I'm perfectly fine with the rejection of the Jein/Okuda "fanwankery", but you're still stuck with claiming the chart shows ship repair status at 82% "complete" for a ship where repairs expected to last a couple of days have not even begun.
Thus, your supposition doesn't make sense, no matter which registry you think represents the Intrepid.
Except that the episode doesn't say that the first meeting takes place immediately upon arrival and in fact takes place at night (Jamie: I was just so upset that night), so probably at the end of the workday, after repairs have begun (It would be Kirk's first priority to make sure those repairs were underway).
Most likely, the deposition meeting was usually a scandal-free formality that was scheduled around the more important repair work, since there wouldn't be any urgency to get it done, as long as it got done.
Other factors that support not-an-immediate meeting is notification of next of kin and Kirk's classmates knowing the score via the grapevine. Need time for those to occur after the Enterprise has arrived.
And of course one would expect a flag officer in charge of a repair base to be wearing red and not green/gold.
About what the chart is tracking: we have the Commodore looking up seemingly at the 1631 line, which is at 100%. Then he says to take the maintenance crews off the Intrepid and put them on the Enterprise. Kirk says the damage to the Enterprise is "considerable" so I think showing 82% of full readyness is a reasonable way of tracking condition.
It is noted in Kirk's log entry after that initial meeting that the situation is "full repairs in progress".
So Stone is both in charge of the repair base and also not relevant enough to report damages to on arrival.
Okeedokee.
That would be a wild stroke of luck for Jein, but in any case I don't think you can make that assessment.
If that were true then the chart isn't about repairs. It says "% COMPLETE".
Further, 20% damage? That's a rather high number for a "couple of days" of repair. It makes no sense, even in the context of having dockyard personnel and equipment available. The NX-01 minefield incident would have taken months at Jupiter station, but even the automated base took a day and a half. The Enterprise refit took months at Earth. Construction of ships seems to take months. Scotty was going to require weeks to repair the Enterprise in ST3 at Spacedock.
It's noted in the log entry before joining that meeting that a full report had already been made.
That meeting wasn't about the repairs, it was about the deposition and log entry extract (though Stone conducts some repair-related business while waiting on Kirk to finish.)
It would also mean that the remaining starships in the chart are even more damaged than the Enterprise. Perhaps there drive systems were offline, so they could not be counted on to aid USS Enterprise.
This episode isn't that long after "The Balance of Terror", and before "Errand of Mercy". Could several starships have tangled with the Romulans or Klingons in that time frame?
This episode isn't that long after "The Balance of Terror", and before "Errand of Mercy". Could several starships have tangled with the Romulans or Klingons in that time frame?
The commodore's eyeline is perfect. If the actor isn't following stage directions to look at the longest line I'll eat my hat. Anyone got a copy of the shooting script?
Jein talks about the "coincidence" of Intrepid lining up with the longest line, but he edited the starship name list to make that happen, his name choices deliberately are tailored to make the data points fit, and the "logic" of who to exclude is added later.
Past tense, but we see it being delivered, including the computer records from Spock which had not been provided or apparently even collected previously.
That statement might apply to (Unnamed) 1700, 1685, 1718, and 1697, and perhaps Hood 1703. However, if the repair status hypothesis were correct, we might expect a 9%/day increase in completion status for ships being actively worked upon, which might even put those in play. So, of the list of Constitutions . . .
NCC-1631 Intrepid
NCC-1664 Excalibur
NCC-1672 Exeter
NCC-1700
NCC-1701 Enterprise
NCC-1703 Hood
NCC-1709 Lexington
. . . even if we assume Intrepid 1631 left in a Vulcan huff after being bumped, that means there ought to have been at least three Constitutions available.
His eyes aren't even visible in the Trekcore HD capture.
he's already started to look down in the screencap. Watch the clip. he's looking up at the top of the chart then immediately makes the Intrepid request. The intent is clear.
@DSG2k You keep selling it but no one's buying it.
I'm just seeing if the 'repair status' assumption everyone made for years is rationally defensible. So far, it doesn't appear to be.
No eyes, no eye line. I'm sorry, but claiming he's looking at 1631's status is just wishful thinking. By the time he turns a bit and you can maybe, just maybe, see eyes, he seems to have eyes cut downward while his head remains high, which defeats your entire argument as much as the inability to see eyes.
Nonsense. It's the only thing that makes the presence of the chart necessary. Percy Rodriquez scans the chart and then delivers the line of dialog about switching maintenance to the Enterprise. If the dialog is not linked to the chart, then there is no story reason to have the chart there at all. (The fact that we don't see the chart in the Inquiry scene would seem to reinforce the idea that the chart is just there for that line of dialog.)
And while I doubt the TPTB considered it, it being a list of ships under repair does help plug that tractor beam plot hole you mentioned, because ships undergoing repair or maintenance would not be able to quickly come to the rescue (the ambulance that's getting its engine rebuilt, or, heck, just getting its oil changed, isn't going to be answering any 911 calls.
)I actually agree with this. When I watch this scene, I see actors on their marks waiting and can almost hear the director "Pan the camera. Pan the camera, And action."
I for one agree that it is repair status. It makes no sense within the context of the story otherwise. Enterprise needs repairs. Stone needs to divert his resources to accommodate.
The question of course is, if Intrepid is the same kind of ship as Enterprise, and is on the same mission, why should Enterprise be rushed and Intrepid allowed to wait for its last, few, fixes?
To me the inference is Intrepid may be a starship, but its mission isn’t as pressing as Enterprise’s.
Which would cast doubt on the notion that all “Star Ships” are on the same kind of five year mission.
The question of course is, if Intrepid is the same kind of ship as Enterprise, and is on the same mission, why should Enterprise be rushed and Intrepid allowed to wait for its last, few, fixes?
To me the inference is Intrepid may be a starship, but its mission isn’t as pressing as Enterprise’s.
Which would cast doubt on the notion that all “Star Ships” are on the same kind of five year mission.
Ugh.
Just a few more words, to set the record straight.
Everybody aboard learned of Finney's sabotage the moment Kirk learned of it. It had already been established that the intercom was open the whole time.
Stone refused to evacuate, even after learning of the sabotage and being aware that the orbit was decaying, in order to hear the witness out.
Kirk knew Cogley and Jamie were coming. After learning that the main energy circuits had been tapped out, Kirk could have ordered that no one else board the ship, or if they already had then that they be beamed back down immediately. Spock could have ordered that Jamie not be allowed to board or that she be beamed back down if she already had boarded. Stone could have done the same. Spock could have insisted that the court be evacuated, even over Stone's objections. But, no. Since Jamie and everyone else were allowed to remain aboard when everybody knew of the sabotage and the orbital decay, it is enough to infer that there was still a safety margin and that everyone could still be safely evacuated from the ship and the ship repaired, all in time. To believe that there was no safety margin within which to evacuate everybody, you'd have to believe that all of the characters were monsters.
While there was still a safety margin and time during which he might be able to repair the ship himself, Kirk wished to resolve the situation himself. Before he'd left the bridge, Kirk had said it was his problem. Kirk had everything to prove, for the sake of his career.
Where have I said how many Starship-class vessels I think were present, especially those that were operational?
From Kirk's encounter with fellow officers in the lounge, it was crystal clear that many officers had already made up their mind about Kirk. Indeed, the premise was that everybody thought there could be no error in the computer record. As long as that premise held up, Kirk appeared guilty as sin. It's not a question of willing. No doubt all who were nominally qualified to be seated were willing.
It tells us a lot about Stone that he would hear a witness out even while the orbit is decaying. It's no surprise he would wait for officers most suited to sit as judges in a proceeding that was of historic importance for Starfleet, and give all parties time to prepare, instead of rushing the hearing through.
If Starship captains really are the best of the best, then they'd voluntarily recuse themselves if they believed they'd prejudged Kirk.
Yeah, captain's log dialog is pretty clear regarding the intent [transcript]: "The officers who will comprise my court-martial board are proceeding to Starbase Eleven." I'm going with that and chalking up the continuity problem (IIRC, long since known and previously discussed on the BBS) as an editing error.
I think it comes done more to the fact that Intrepid is supposed to be there, undergoing maintenance or whatever, which Stone orders to be rescheduled. Her absence is planned.
On the other hand, the Enterprise's visit is unscheduled, which means she is not where she's supposed to be and not doing the thing she was supposed to be doing.
So it's about getting the one that should be Out There now, back Out There now.
