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Warp vs Genesis (TNG 7 x 19) What counts as bad science in Trek? And why nitpick?

Is this Darjeeling

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What bugs me is when people say “I don’t like Genesis because it’s bad science.” If that’s the standard, then you shouldn’t be watching Trek at all: between warp drives, technobabble, even the Q all break science just as hard. A lot in Trek has always been implausible. So, if warp (what makes Trek possible) breaks relativity just as hard as Genesis (TNG season 7, episode 19) breaks biology, why do some fans forgive one implausibility—and many others (for that matter lol)—but not the other? Again, we could argue about bad science in Trek all day :p. Curious what others think?
 
Warp bubbles, like Alcubierre's, are just a mathematical solution to Einstein’s relativity. They’re not proven, and even if they ever were, you couldn’t just pull it off as easily as Star Trek makes it sound. The amount of negative energy needed is unknown, and it’s also unknown if such energy even exists in those quantities. You’re not going to get there by tossing in some dilithium crystals or other Trek technobabble. Meanwhile, the Genesis episode is always treated as total science garbage. But if you strip away the exaggerations, the sloppy execution, and the nonsense about people transforming into spiders in a few hours, the core idea of partial 'de-evolution' like reactivating ancestral traits such as a tail or amphibian-style gills, is actually way more plausible. It would take insane technology, but it’s still more likely than building a warp drive.
So I don’t get why warp is considered legitimate speculation, while Genesis (season 7 episode 19) is written off as completely impossible.
 
Nothing about science fiction requires limiting oneself to absolute credibility. The goal is merely to sell a plausible enough illusion to engage the audience's willing suspension of disbelief, rather than an obviously absurd one that pulls them out of the story. There is a profound difference between basing something on real theory with a few liberties taken and just making up complete, ignorant nonsense. To a large extent, writing hard science fiction is about convincing your readers or viewers that you know what scientific principles you're taking liberties with, that you're tweaking them for necessary dramatic license rather than out of ignorance.

When Roddenberry developed ST, he made a point of consulting with scientists, engineers, and research think tanks, one of the first SFTV creators who'd even tried to do the research. He took liberties with their advice for the sake of dramatic license and budgetary necessity, but he sought their advice, which put him well ahead of the pack, and he actively promoted his show as grounded and realistic.

See, the nonsensical thing about saying warp drive is just fantasy is that most 1960s-70s TV shows didn't even acknowledge that the speed of light was a thing. They were so ignorant of the most basic science that they thought you could make an interstellar journey with ordinary rockets, or on a drifting Moon. Just acknowledging the need for an FTL drive, whether that drive was really practical or not, put the show far, far ahead of its predecessors and successors. Yes, warp drive was an accepted break from reality, as it has been in science fiction since John W. Campbell first used the word in 1930, but it's grounded in real Einsteinian theory and its specifics were worked out as plausibly at the fiction allowed (for instance, recognizing that only antimatter could power it and that a navigational deflector was needed). That's all you need for something to qualify as science fiction rather than fantasy -- making its details sound convincing enough that the knowledgeable audience is willing to suspend disbelief about the rest. (Hal Clement called hard SF a contest between the writer trying to sell an idea to the audience and the audience trying to catch the flaws.)

At first, I didn't read closely enough and thought you were talking about the Genesis Torpedo, which was the one thing in Star Trek that my father specifically singled out as too implausible for his suspension of disbelief. As for the TNG episode "Genesis," I don't think its fanciful approach to genetics is significantly more implausible than other transformation episodes like "Identity Crisis" or "Threshold" or "Affliction"/"Divergence." Ultimately they all boiled down to "Let's give Michael Westmore a chance to show off and maybe win another Best Makeup Emmy."

At least the premise of "Genesis" was grounded in the actual scientific concept of introns, even if it was applied fancifully, and even though I believe the version of the theory that Braga based the story on has since been discredited. Better to offer a dramatically embellished interpretation of a real scientific idea than to make up some kind of complete gibberish like tetryon particles or isolytic subspace whoozits. After all, using real science can be educational, even if it's embellished for the story. People who learn about a scientific concept from a work of fiction that depicts it in a dramatized way can always, if they're curious, look up real science texts about it and learn how it really works. But if you just make up technobabble nonsense, there's nothing to be learned.
 
Except its
Nothing about science fiction requires limiting oneself to absolute credibility. The goal is merely to sell a plausible enough illusion to engage the audience's willing suspension of disbelief, rather than an obviously absurd one that pulls them out of the story. There is a profound difference between basing something on real theory with a few liberties taken and just making up complete, ignorant nonsense. To a large extent, writing hard science fiction is about convincing your readers or viewers that you know what scientific principles you're taking liberties with, that you're tweaking them for necessary dramatic license rather than out of ignorance.

When Roddenberry developed ST, he made a point of consulting with scientists, engineers, and research think tanks, one of the first SFTV creators who'd even tried to do the research. He took liberties with their advice for the sake of dramatic license and budgetary necessity, but he sought their advice, which put him well ahead of the pack, and he actively promoted his show as grounded and realistic.

See, the nonsensical thing about saying warp drive is just fantasy is that most 1960s-70s TV shows didn't even acknowledge that the speed of light was a thing. They were so ignorant of the most basic science that they thought you could make an interstellar journey with ordinary rockets, or on a drifting Moon. Just acknowledging the need for an FTL drive, whether that drive was really practical or not, put the show far, far ahead of its predecessors and successors. Yes, warp drive was an accepted break from reality, as it has been in science fiction since John W. Campbell first used the word in 1930, but it's grounded in real Einsteinian theory and its specifics were worked out as plausibly at the fiction allowed (for instance, recognizing that only antimatter could power it and that a navigational deflector was needed). That's all you need for something to qualify as science fiction rather than fantasy -- making its details sound convincing enough that the knowledgeable audience is willing to suspend disbelief about the rest. (Hal Clement called hard SF a contest between the writer trying to sell an idea to the audience and the audience trying to catch the flaws.)

At first, I didn't read closely enough and thought you were talking about the Genesis Torpedo, which was the one thing in Star Trek that my father specifically singled out as too implausible for his suspension of disbelief. As for the TNG episode "Genesis," I don't think its fanciful approach to genetics is significantly more implausible than other transformation episodes like "Identity Crisis" or "Threshold" or "Affliction"/"Divergence." Ultimately they all boiled down to "Let's give Michael Westmore a chance to show off and maybe win another Best Makeup Emmy."

At least the premise of "Genesis" was grounded in the actual scientific concept of introns, even if it was applied fancifully, and even though I believe the version of the theory that Braga based the story on has since been discredited. Better to offer a dramatically embellished interpretation of a real scientific idea than to make up some kind of complete gibberish like tetryon particles or isolytic subspace whoozits. After all, using real science can be educational, even if it's embellished for the story. People who learn about a scientific concept from a work of fiction that depicts it in a dramatized way can always, if they're curious, look up real science texts about it and learn how it really works. But if you just make up technobabble nonsense, there's nothing to be learned.

Nothing about science fiction requires limiting oneself to absolute credibility. The goal is merely to sell a plausible enough illusion to engage the audience's willing suspension of disbelief, rather than an obviously absurd one that pulls them out of the story. There is a profound difference between basing something on real theory with a few liberties taken and just making up complete, ignorant nonsense. To a large extent, writing hard science fiction is about convincing your readers or viewers that you know what scientific principles you're taking liberties with, that you're tweaking them for necessary dramatic license rather than out of ignorance.

When Roddenberry developed ST, he made a point of consulting with scientists, engineers, and research think tanks, one of the first SFTV creators who'd even tried to do the research. He took liberties with their advice for the sake of dramatic license and budgetary necessity, but he sought their advice, which put him well ahead of the pack, and he actively promoted his show as grounded and realistic.

See, the nonsensical thing about saying warp drive is just fantasy is that most 1960s-70s TV shows didn't even acknowledge that the speed of light was a thing. They were so ignorant of the most basic science that they thought you could make an interstellar journey with ordinary rockets, or on a drifting Moon. Just acknowledging the need for an FTL drive, whether that drive was really practical or not, put the show far, far ahead of its predecessors and successors. Yes, warp drive was an accepted break from reality, as it has been in science fiction since John W. Campbell first used the word in 1930, but it's grounded in real Einsteinian theory and its specifics were worked out as plausibly at the fiction allowed (for instance, recognizing that only antimatter could power it and that a navigational deflector was needed). That's all you need for something to qualify as science fiction rather than fantasy -- making its details sound convincing enough that the knowledgeable audience is willing to suspend disbelief about the rest. (Hal Clement called hard SF a contest between the writer trying to sell an idea to the audience and the audience trying to catch the flaws.)

At first, I didn't read closely enough and thought you were talking about the Genesis Torpedo, which was the one thing in Star Trek that my father specifically singled out as too implausible for his suspension of disbelief. As for the TNG episode "Genesis," I don't think its fanciful approach to genetics is significantly more implausible than other transformation episodes like "Identity Crisis" or "Threshold" or "Affliction"/"Divergence." Ultimately they all boiled down to "Let's give Michael Westmore a chance to show off and maybe win another Best Makeup Emmy."

At least the premise of "Genesis" was grounded in the actual scientific concept of introns, even if it was applied fancifully, and even though I believe the version of the theory that Braga based the story on has since been discredited. Better to offer a dramatically embellished interpretation of a real scientific idea than to make up some kind of complete gibberish like tetryon particles or isolytic subspace whoozits. After all, using real science can be educational, even if it's embellished for the story. People who learn about a scientific concept from a work of fiction that depicts it in a dramatized way can always, if they're curious, look up real science texts about it and learn how it really works. But if you just make up technobabble nonsense, there's nothing to be learned.
I get what you’re saying, and I agree with you on the role of suspension of disbelief and how Trek stood out for trying to ground its concepts in real science. That’s exactly why my point stands: warp gets treated as respectable speculation while episodes like Genesis get dismissed as ‘garbage,’ even though they were also drawing (loosely) on real biology.

You actually said it yourself at the end. Genesis is fanciful but still rooted in a real idea, which makes it no more absurd than warp, or countless other Trek devices. My frustration is with the double standard: fans will forgive physics-stretching when it’s dressed in Einstein, but they’ll scoff at biology-stretching when it looks messy on screen.

Yeah, warp is fine as a dramatic liberty, and so is Genesis. But if we’re being consistent, both deserve to be seen as science fiction doing what science fiction does: taking liberties with real ideas, not just making up gibberish.

If warp counts as plausible because it borrows from Einstein while taking generous liberties, then Genesis deserves the same for borrowing from genetics. Dismissing one as "that's just bad science" while forgiving the other is just a double standard.
 
Please don’t post three times in a row. Wait for someone to respond first.

Thanks
I’ll respect that from now on. I just wanted to clarify my point since my first post didn’t come across clearly, so I replied to it with a more extensive explanation, and this was a genuine consideration too.
 
I get what you’re saying, and I agree with you on the role of suspension of disbelief and how Trek stood out for trying to ground its concepts in real science. That’s exactly why my point stands: warp gets treated as respectable speculation while episodes like Genesis get dismissed as ‘garbage,’ even though they were also drawing (loosely) on real biology.

You actually said it yourself at the end. Genesis is fanciful but still rooted in a real idea, which makes it no more absurd than warp, or countless other Trek devices. My frustration is with the double standard: fans will forgive physics-stretching when it’s dressed in Einstein, but they’ll scoff at biology-stretching when it looks messy on screen.

That's why I thought at first that you meant the Genesis Device from TWOK, since that is complete fantasy.

Still, I think the difference is the degree of liberty being taken. If warp drive could be achieved, it would probably operate reasonably similarly to how Trek depicts it. But introns or genetic infections or whatever can't actually transform people's bodies. Once the tissues are grown into place, changing the genetic code won't alter the gross structure; any changes that manifested would only be on a cellular level. So there's a far, far bigger leap from the basic concept to the way it's depicted.

That said, there are many things in Trek I have bigger problems with. I don't know why people would single this one out.
 
That's why I thought at first that you meant the Genesis Device from TWOK, since that is complete fantasy.

Still, I think the difference is the degree of liberty being taken. If warp drive could be achieved, it would probably operate reasonably similarly to how Trek depicts it. But introns or genetic infections or whatever can't actually transform people's bodies. Once the tissues are grown into place, changing the genetic code won't alter the gross structure; any changes that manifested would only be on a cellular level. So there's a far, far bigger leap from the basic concept to the way it's depicted.

That said, there are many things in Trek I have bigger problems with. I don't know why people would single this one out.
I wasn't talking about Genesis as it was written... Obviously, people turning into spiders in a few hours is utter nonsense. My point is that if you imagine 'insane technology' and scientific advancements that could force humans to express ancestral traits, like a tail or amphibian gills, that’s more plausible than warp drive in Trek. We already know atavisms happen. Humans are sometimes born with tails. Chickens can be engineered to grow teeth. Whales sometimes develop hind limbs. They're real cases of developmental programs still buried in the genome. With enough control over gene expression and tissue remodeling, you could in principle push an adult body to express some of that. It would be brutal, slow, and hard, but it’s not outside the realm of biology.

Warp drive, on the other hand, depends on Alcubierre’s metric. A purely mathematical solution in relativity that requires negative energy in quantities we don’t know how to produce, or if it even exists in usable form.
Once the bubble is moving faster than light, no signals can pass in or out, which means the crew couldn’t steer or stop it. The front of the bubble forms a horizon that blocks information, making navigation impossible. There’s also the fact that, you can’t even form the bubble locally without already having exotic matter spread out ahead of you. And on top of that, no one knows how to collapse a bubble without dumping catastrophic amounts of energy. That’s way more speculative than tweaking genes to re-awaken body plans that evolution already left in the code. And about Trek doing warp correctly... no, not really. The show’s warp core, dilithium crystals, and subspace patchwork are just technobabble. What Trek gets right is the broad idea that faster-than-light travel might involve bending spacetime instead of moving through it. The execution is fantasy, however.

So if you strip things to the core: controlled atavism, technically grounded but ridiculously hard; warp = kind of plausible and mathematically pretty but probably impossible.
 
We couldn't really have stories about a galactic civilizations if there was no faster-than-light transportation and time dilation works as we understand it today. There have been some science fiction stories about multigenerational ships taking thousands of years between star systems while millions of years pass on their home planet, but they tell a very different kind of story than Star Trek wanted to be.
 
Is the Spore Drive one of them?

Easily. The result of Bryan Fuller evidently not knowing the difference between a fringe theory and solid science.


Warp drive, on the other hand, depends on Alcubierre’s metric. A purely mathematical solution in relativity that requires negative energy in quantities we don’t know how to produce, or if it even exists in usable form.
Once the bubble is moving faster than light, no signals can pass in or out, which means the crew couldn’t steer or stop it. The front of the bubble forms a horizon that blocks information, making navigation impossible. There’s also the fact that, you can’t even form the bubble locally without already having exotic matter spread out ahead of you. And on top of that, no one knows how to collapse a bubble without dumping catastrophic amounts of energy.

Actually there's been decades of theoretical refinement of Alcubierre's initial idea, and theorists have found workarounds for a number of the warp metric's problems. They've found a way to do it with only locally negative energy (less than the surroundings, but still positive), they've reduced the energy density required, etc. So it's not impossible to believe that another few hundred or thousand years of scientific advancement could solve the other problems with the metric. (In my Arachne-Troubleshooter Universe, warp drive and wormholes are only possible thanks to incredibly advanced "programmable quark matter" created by higher intelligences millions of years ahead of us and handed down to younger civilizations.)

The thing that's nonsensical is to assume that a work set centuries in the future has to limit itself to the physics we understand today, that nobody in the intervening generations has learned anything new. That's not embracing credibility, it's throwing it out the window altogether. That would be like writing a present-day story where there was no Maxwell's equations, relativity, or quantum mechanics, so that there were no electronics or transistorized devices. Science fiction allows -- and requires -- speculating beyond what is known. That's the whole point of the genre. The key is simply to keep your conjectures consistent with what we know, and to make them sound plausible enough that the audience is willing to suspend disbelief and accept the illusion. Because this is an illusion, not a dissertation. Nobody watching a magic show believes the woman is really sawed in half; it just has to be faked convincingly enough that they enjoy playing along.


And about Trek doing warp correctly... no, not really. The show’s warp core, dilithium crystals, and subspace patchwork are just technobabble. What Trek gets right is the broad idea that faster-than-light travel might involve bending spacetime instead of moving through it. The execution is fantasy, however.

No, it's conjecture. It is an error of vocabulary to treat those as synonymous.

A warp core is a matter-antimatter reactor. It's obvious that matter-antimatter annihilation, the ultimate energy source in the universe, would be the only plausible power source for a warp drive, so I can't imagine what you think is implausible about it. The only implausible thing Trek has done with warp cores is sticking them in the middle of the engine rooms rather than way outside the ship so the crew would be insulated from their waste heat and radiation (which is probably what Jefferies intended by putting the engine nacelles on long pylons, a credible detail right there). Well, that and overusing the concept of a warp core breach (initially introduced plausibly as something that could only happen if multiple redundant safeguards simultaneously failed) to the point that cores blew up if you looked at them funny. But those are problems with the execution, not the concept.

Dilithium is speculative, yes, but it isn't impossible that future civilization could create or discover minerals we don't know of today. The TNG Technical Manual offers a pretty credible-sounding explanation for what dilithium is and how it works. It's imaginary, of course, but it's grounded in enough real science and mineralogy to be a plausible speculation.

The way Trek treats subspace is often fanciful, yes, but the concept of a "subspace" comes from real physics and mathematics; it's a lower-dimensional subset of a larger-dimensional space. M-theory suggests that our universe has 11 dimensions in all, most of them "curled up" too small to observe. It would be valid terminology to refer to either our 4 dimensions or the other 7 as a subspace of the total 11D space. In my first work of published Trek fiction, S.C.E.: Aftermath, that's exactly how I explained what subspace was.


So if you strip things to the core: controlled atavism, technically grounded but ridiculously hard; warp = kind of plausible and mathematically pretty but probably impossible.

Again: "Plausible" is all you need in science fiction. It's not pretending anything is real, it's just exploring an entertaining conjecture. The conjecture beyond what we know is the entire point. It's just a question of whether that conjecture is extrapolated from known science and logically reasoned, or just pulled out of thin air and slapped together randomly.

There's even a subgenre of science fiction where an author starts with one thing that's clearly impossible, then explores the logical consequences if it did exist with as much credibility and scientific accuracy as possible. For instance, David Brin's The Practice Effect takes place in a universe where entropy works backward and things get better the more they're used rather than wearing out. It's a nonsense idea, obviously, but he explores all the consequences in a logically worked-out way. It's a thought experiment: If this one impossibility were true but everything else about science still worked the same, how would it affect everything else? All science fiction is ultimately thought experiments. It's the genre of "What if?"
 
Science isn't the reason I don't like TNG's Genesis much. :)

Easily. The result of Bryan Fuller evidently not knowing the difference between a fringe theory and solid science.




Actually there's been decades of theoretical refinement of Alcubierre's initial idea, and theorists have found workarounds for a number of the warp metric's problems. They've found a way to do it with only locally negative energy (less than the surroundings, but still positive), they've reduced the energy density required, etc. So it's not impossible to believe that another few hundred or thousand years of scientific advancement could solve the other problems with the metric. (In my Arachne-Troubleshooter Universe, warp drive and wormholes are only possible thanks to incredibly advanced "programmable quark matter" created by higher intelligences millions of years ahead of us and handed down to younger civilizations.)

The thing that's nonsensical is to assume that a work set centuries in the future has to limit itself to the physics we understand today, that nobody in the intervening generations has learned anything new. That's not embracing credibility, it's throwing it out the window altogether. That would be like writing a present-day story where there was no Maxwell's equations, relativity, or quantum mechanics, so that there were no electronics or transistorized devices. Science fiction allows -- and requires -- speculating beyond what is known. That's the whole point of the genre. The key is simply to keep your conjectures consistent with what we know, and to make them sound plausible enough that the audience is willing to suspend disbelief and accept the illusion. Because this is an illusion, not a dissertation. Nobody watching a magic show believes the woman is really sawed in half; it just has to be faked convincingly enough that they enjoy playing along.




No, it's conjecture. It is an error of vocabulary to treat those as synonymous.

A warp core is a matter-antimatter reactor. It's obvious that matter-antimatter annihilation, the ultimate energy source in the universe, would be the only plausible power source for a warp drive, so I can't imagine what you think is implausible about it. The only implausible thing Trek has done with warp cores is sticking them in the middle of the engine rooms rather than way outside the ship so the crew would be insulated from their waste heat and radiation (which is probably what Jefferies intended by putting the engine nacelles on long pylons, a credible detail right there). Well, that and overusing the concept of a warp core breach (initially introduced plausibly as something that could only happen if multiple redundant safeguards simultaneously failed) to the point that cores blew up if you looked at them funny. But those are problems with the execution, not the concept.

Dilithium is speculative, yes, but it isn't impossible that future civilization could create or discover minerals we don't know of today. The TNG Technical Manual offers a pretty credible-sounding explanation for what dilithium is and how it works. It's imaginary, of course, but it's grounded in enough real science and mineralogy to be a plausible speculation.

The way Trek treats subspace is often fanciful, yes, but the concept of a "subspace" comes from real physics and mathematics; it's a lower-dimensional subset of a larger-dimensional space. M-theory suggests that our universe has 11 dimensions in all, most of them "curled up" too small to observe. It would be valid terminology to refer to either our 4 dimensions or the other 7 as a subspace of the total 11D space. In my first work of published Trek fiction, S.C.E.: Aftermath, that's exactly how I explained what subspace was.




Again: "Plausible" is all you need in science fiction. It's not pretending anything is real, it's just exploring an entertaining conjecture. The conjecture beyond what we know is the entire point. It's just a question of whether that conjecture is extrapolated from known science and logically reasoned, or just pulled out of thin air and slapped together randomly.

There's even a subgenre of science fiction where an author starts with one thing that's clearly impossible, then explores the logical consequences if it did exist with as much credibility and scientific accuracy as possible. For instance, David Brin's The Practice Effect takes place in a universe where entropy works backward and things get better the more they're used rather than wearing out. It's a nonsense idea, obviously, but he explores all the consequences in a logically worked-out way. It's a thought experiment: If this one impossibility were true but everything else about science still worked the same, how would it affect everything else? All science fiction is ultimately thought experiments. It's the genre of "What if?"
I’m not saying science fiction has to stop at today’s physics, or that Trek shouldn’t speculate. That’s the point of the genre, like you said. My issue is the double standard. When Trek throws out biology in Genesis, people tear it to shreds as garbage science. But when Trek throws out physics for warp, it gets treated as visionary and plausible.

Yes, Alcubierre’s metric has had decades of refinement, with ideas that reduce the energy requirements or work around some issues. But none of those papers have solved the fundamental roadblocks,we still don’t have a mechanism for producing exotic matter in usable quantities, we still have causality and horizon problems, and we still don’t know how you’d start or stop the bubble safely. So calling it kind of plausible is fair.

Calling it conjecture instead of fantasy is just semantics. I wasn’t saying Trek is elves and dragons, I was saying it leans on technobabble when it fills gaps that real physics can’t explain.

Yes, a warp core as a matter–antimatter reactor is fine. Matter–antimatter annihilation is real physics and, in principle, an energy source. That part isn’t the problem. The implausibility comes with how that energy is supposedly used to create and control a faster-than-light spacetime bubble. That’s not a solved problem. It’s just skipped over with jargon.

Dilithium, though, isn’t speculative. It’s not like antimatter or Alcubierre’s metric, which at least have a foundation in physics. Trek’s dilithium is a narrative crystal invented to explain why a reactor doesn’t blow up every time. The TNG Technical Manual explanation is clever worldbuilding, but it’s still made-up pseudo-physics, not a plausible speculation.

And subspace in Trek isn’t really connected to how the term is used in mathematics or M-theory. Trek’s subspace is just a convenient medium for FTL travel and communications, not a genuine extrapolation of higher-dimensional theory. Borrowing the vocabulary doesn’t make it scientifically grounded.

Sure, Trek dresses warp in better-sounding jargon than something like Genesis. But most of that dressing is technobabble, still. What Trek gets right is the broad idea that FTL might involve spacetime manipulation; the execution is still fantasy dressed in science-like terms. If the Genesis episode is garbage for breaking biology, then warp should be garbage too, the only difference is that physics technobabble gets a free pass.
 
I’m not saying science fiction has to stop at today’s physics, or that Trek shouldn’t speculate. That’s the point of the genre, like you said. My issue is the double standard. When Trek throws out biology in Genesis, people tear it to shreds as garbage science. But when Trek throws out physics for warp, it gets treated as visionary and plausible.

Honestly, I'm not convinced that the wonky science is the main reason people criticize "Genesis." (It would be clearer what you were talking about if you followed the proper format and put the episode title in quotation marks.) People are less forgiving of bad science in a bad episode than they are in a good one. Breaks from reality are acceptable in fiction if the result is worthwhile. As already mentioned, FTL drives have always been an acceptable break from reality in science fiction because they're necessary for telling stories on an interstellar scale.

And no, Star Trek does not "throw out" physics by using warp drive. It merely takes the amount of artistic license with physics that's necessary to make the stories work. Throwing out physics would be if people just used rockets or climbed really long ropes to get to distant stars. Requiring warp drive is acknowledging the physical reality that the speed of light exists, and that the only remotely plausible way of circumventing it would require some form of warping of spacetime. That's using physics in a way that serves the story.


Calling it conjecture instead of fantasy is just semantics.

No, it's a fundamental difference. Conjecture is a possibility we don't know to be true but can't rule out either. Naturally future science will discover things we don't know today, so an integral part of science fiction is conjecturing future discoveries or inventions that we can't rule out as impossible. But fantasy is something that we already know to be impossible, where the impossibility is the point of the exercise.



Yes, a warp core as a matter–antimatter reactor is fine. Matter–antimatter annihilation is real physics and, in principle, an energy source. That part isn’t the problem. The implausibility comes with how that energy is supposedly used to create and control a faster-than-light spacetime bubble. That’s not a solved problem. It’s just skipped over with jargon.

Congratulations, you've figured out how fiction works! It's not a dissertation, it's a story. If something isn't relevant to the story, explaining it is a waste of time. Just assume that future science has figured out solutions we can't imagine.

Gene Roddenberry called this out specifically in the TOS writers' bible (Third Revision, April 17, 1967, p. 5). "Tell your story about people, not about science and gadgetry. Joe Friday doesn't stop to explain the mechanics of his .38 before he uses it; Kildare never did a monologue about the theory of anesthetics; Matt Dillon never identities [sic] and discusses the breed of his horse before he rides off on it."


Dilithium, though, isn’t speculative. It’s not like antimatter or Alcubierre’s metric, which at least have a foundation in physics. Trek’s dilithium is a narrative crystal invented to explain why a reactor doesn’t blow up every time. The TNG Technical Manual explanation is clever worldbuilding, but it’s still made-up pseudo-physics, not a plausible speculation.

The problem is that you're choosing to set your standards so preposterously high that no work of science fiction could possibly clear the bar, except maybe the hardest of the hard like Robert L. Forward's stuff (and even he took the odd liberty here and there). If you refuse to count anything beyond what's known to exist today, that's not science fiction at all, just mundane fiction. Conjecture is the whole point. And the audience has to choose to play along with the illusion. The science is just there to make the illusion credible enough that it's easy to buy into. And different works of science fiction have always had different levels of credibility. Star Trek's credibility is low compared to the hard SF of a Bob Forward or Greg Egan, but high compared to most everything else on TV and film, particularly back in the days of TOS and TNG.
 
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There is sound in space. Up is a universal constant. Aliens are humans with bumpy heads. There's no realistic zero-G movement of ships, they move like fighter jets or battleships at sea. It's all very silly. Fantasy with it's own rules, dressed up in science fiction colours.

Genesis? Magic. Galaxy-destoying supernova? Magic. Wormhole godlike aliens? Magic. Q? Magic. It's as silly as all the the rest, though. Just suspend your disbelief and enjoy.
 
There is sound in space. Up is a universal constant. Aliens are humans with bumpy heads. There's no realistic zero-G movement of ships, they move like fighter jets or battleships at sea. It's all very silly. Fantasy with it's own rules, dressed up in science fiction colours.

Genesis? Magic. Galaxy-destoying supernova? Magic. Wormhole godlike aliens? Magic. Q? Magic. It's as silly as all the the rest, though. Just suspend your disbelief and enjoy.

It's true that there is, unfortunately, a lot of fanciful stuff in Trek. Roddenberry wanted it to be as realistic as he could make it, but even he put in multiple breaks from reality for the sake of budget, practicality, and dramatic license -- for instance, postulating Earth-parallel planets so he could pass off backlot sets and historical costumes as alien, giving lots of aliens psychic powers because they don't require expensive effects, and positing a magic universal translator to streamline interaction with aliens.

Compared to such extravagant breaks from reality, however, warp drive is one of the most scientifically grounded concepts in the show. As I said, even acknowledging that the speed of light exists and that you can't reach Sirius or Vega with an ordinary rocket put TOS, TAS, and even TNG way, way ahead of the science-literacy curve for 20th-century SFTV. Warp drive is a fiction rooted in scientific facts (that spacetime topology can be altered and that spacetime can expand or contract faster than light relative to itself). Earth-duplicate alien cultures are a fiction rooted in nothing real, beyond the metatextual need to keep the show within budget. So there's a difference in category. (I want to put psi powers in the latter category too, but at the time TOS was made, there were many who still took them seriously as a valid possibility.)
 
Nothing about science fiction requires limiting oneself to absolute credibility. The goal is merely to sell a plausible enough illusion to engage the audience's willing suspension of disbelief, rather than an obviously absurd one that pulls them out of the story. There is a profound difference between basing something on real theory with a few liberties taken and just making up complete, ignorant nonsense. To a large extent, writing hard science fiction is about convincing your readers or viewers that you know what scientific principles you're taking liberties with, that you're tweaking them for necessary dramatic license rather than out of ignorance.

^^this

I had started a post yesterday, but got sidetracked, and yours gets to the point far better. :)

When Roddenberry developed ST, he made a point of consulting with scientists, engineers, and research think tanks, one of the first SFTV creators who'd even tried to do the research. He took liberties with their advice for the sake of dramatic license and budgetary necessity, but he sought their advice, which put him well ahead of the pack, and he actively promoted his show as grounded and realistic.

^^this

Trek was always a blend, trying to be honest with real science and using made-up stuff that (a) felt convincing and (b) didn't trip over the real stuff. Now I can think of stories that trip over the real stuff to a point and they remain watchable, because the made-up stuff tripping isn't egregious. By season 7 TNG, or even season 5, stuff starts to feel less convincing, especially when previous seasons paid more attention to both the basics and the characters. "Disaster" is great, until the nanosecond you remember anything about Geordi, Beverly, and Data as characters, what traits they have, and their professions. The story makes up for some of it elsewhere, but Geordi and Beverly are fairly poorly treated. To go into further detail, taken from my draft:

And it's not just that, early TNG gave characters actual and established traits to make it all easier. Geordi with his VISOR had some unique functionality that was more readily adhered to until season 5, with episodes such as "Disaster" that would have saved a truckload of time had Geordi remembered that the cool-looking thing across his head could detect heat and numerous other types of radiation long before Crusher put her hand on just the right bulkhead at just the right time because the plot demanded it, forgetting that Geordi was there and had a perfect eyeline to that wall earlier. But no worries, "The Masterpiece Society" does remember he's got this gizmo on and the episode is used to great effect in that regard. While too late, please don't get me started on space doctor Beverly and her telling people to take a nice long deep breath and hold it all in before depressurizing the bay, since it's been known for much longer that - if you have to deal with depressurizing something - you exhale the cazzo out of your lungs first, not inhale. To compare, look up the glorious season one episode "The Naked Now". Okay, the episode is a BAD example of the fledgling show, but they at least got the basic difference between the rapid transfer of air from a dense space to a vacuum correct, thank Data for that. "Disaster" gets that wrong as well as Geordi of all characters WOULD know the difference, but here he doesn't and it's a sci-fi 101 issue. Honestly, it's bad when a maligned season 1 story gets the basics right but the now-established and allegedly GOAT season (5) screws up with the most basic stuff.🤦‍♂️
Now some pre-season 5 stories do make mistakes, but none cross my mind for being so egregiously out of character or ignoring their traits and professions.

When using real science at the core of a story, extrapolation and creative liberty is one thing, but stretching it too thin breaks it. While "Genesis" has enough to save it (IMHO), it does play a little too fast and loose with the genetic Treknobabble. Thankfully, the worst of this - as I recall - happened at the end. As a horror story, the episode is very watchable and downright creepy. Did real science need to explain it? Perhaps not, and might have been better if another draft tweaked the issue. But what made it work definitely kept some audiences hooked. It really is a balance combined with individual audience tastes.


See, the nonsensical thing about saying warp drive is just fantasy is that most 1960s-70s TV shows didn't even acknowledge that the speed of light was a thing. They were so ignorant of the most basic science that they thought you could make an interstellar journey with ordinary rockets, or on a drifting Moon. Just acknowledging the need for an FTL drive, whether that drive was really practical or not, put the show far, far ahead of its predecessors and successors. Yes, warp drive was an accepted break from reality, as it has been in science fiction since John W. Campbell first used the word in 1930, but it's grounded in real Einsteinian theory and its specifics were worked out as plausibly at the fiction allowed (for instance, recognizing that only antimatter could power it and that a navigational deflector was needed). That's all you need for something to qualify as science fiction rather than fantasy -- making its details sound convincing enough that the knowledgeable audience is willing to suspend disbelief about the rest. (Hal Clement called hard SF a contest between the writer trying to sell an idea to the audience and the audience trying to catch the flaws.)

^^this

Most audiences too were not aware, which helps. We can also look at stories like "Court Martial" and "Contagion" where it's fairly obvious to us, but it wasn't to many general audiences at the time of original airdate.

Ditto for teleportation, which is pure fantasy. Now maybe a scientific breakthrough will make it a reality. But the dialogue throws in enough rules and generally doesn't break them, and is needed for the sake of having a costly series. The fact some writers theorized ideas and gave some depth to the fictional technology instead of just showing "the pretty" on screen is what separates Trek from other sci-fi. And who knows, the ideas might be inspiration to scientists who will invent teleportation as easily as someone discovered a pretzel by pure chance while rolling up itty bitty strips of bread dough.


At first, I didn't read closely enough and thought you were talking about the Genesis Torpedo, which was the one thing in Star Trek that my father specifically singled out as too implausible for his suspension of disbelief. As for the TNG episode "Genesis," I don't think its fanciful approach to genetics is significantly more implausible than other transformation episodes like "Identity Crisis" or "Threshold" or "Affliction"/"Divergence." Ultimately they all boiled down to "Let's give Michael Westmore a chance to show off and maybe win another Best Makeup Emmy."

:)

Westmore was good. Real good. Even for very low-budget stuff in the 1970s, he could go a long way with what was available. "Land of the Lost" instantly comes to mind.

At least the premise of "Genesis" was grounded in the actual scientific concept of introns, even if it was applied fancifully, and even though I believe the version of the theory that Braga based the story on has since been discredited. Better to offer a dramatically embellished interpretation of a real scientific idea than to make up some kind of complete gibberish like tetryon particles or isolytic subspace whoozits. After all, using real science can be educational, even if it's embellished for the story. People who learn about a scientific concept from a work of fiction that depicts it in a dramatized way can always, if they're curious, look up real science texts about it and learn how it really works. But if you just make up technobabble nonsense, there's nothing to be learned.

Fair points, well stated. Especially for if it piques a viewer's interest, then it did its job and especially if there's enough real stuff behind the iffy. Doubly especially for the time in which the episode was scripted. I don't remember at the time how much was an extrapolation of a known theory or fact and how much was conjured up for the sake of gimmickry. I still find "Genesis" the season seven escapade far more rewatchable than season five's contrived "Disaster" any day. IMHO and YMMV, of course.
 
It's true that there is, unfortunately, a lot of fanciful stuff in Trek. Roddenberry wanted it to be as realistic as he could make it, but even he put in multiple breaks from reality for the sake of budget, practicality, and dramatic license -- for instance, postulating Earth-parallel planets so he could pass off backlot sets and historical costumes as alien, giving lots of aliens psychic powers because they don't require expensive effects, and positing a magic universal translator to streamline interaction with aliens.

Compared to such extravagant breaks from reality, however, warp drive is one of the most scientifically grounded concepts in the show. As I said, even acknowledging that the speed of light exists and that you can't reach Sirius or Vega with an ordinary rocket put TOS, TAS, and even TNG way, way ahead of the science-literacy curve for 20th-century SFTV. Warp drive is a fiction rooted in scientific facts (that spacetime topology can be altered and that spacetime can expand or contract faster than light relative to itself). Earth-duplicate alien cultures are a fiction rooted in nothing real, beyond the metatextual need to keep the show within budget. So there's a difference in category. (I want to put psi powers in the latter category too, but at the time TOS was made, there were many who still took them seriously as a valid possibility.)

^^this

It also reminds me of the second pilot, WNMHGB. The warp drive is knocked out due to trying to cross this galactic barrier, and this is one of the very few times Trek successfully sells the notion of being truly trapped out there and it's palpable. A ship losing its ability to travel faster than light is now stuck and with limited resources and confined in scope to keep the audience focused. A great blend of the fantasy and the reality where nothing trips over each other to pull one out of the story. It's great stuff.
 
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