Did Janeway Get Shorted in the Later Seasons?

[Orac Zen]

I agree my poor Tuvie got shorted.

Yours? Since when??

Seriously, numbers can be twisted to say anything and I won't deny that judging which character an episodes belonged to can be a subjective thing.

Indeed they can. Shatner-esque line counting (mythical or not, it's a convenient phrase ) is all very well but it doesn't address the point of the OP, which kimc has conveniently restated here:

I am however interested in people's perceptions - subjective or not.

It did seem that Janeway had less of substance to do as time went by. It did seem that Seven - and later the EMH - had more substantive roles in the series. Count all the lines you like but that was the impression that I and apparently some others gained. Then again I think the same is true of all the characters. The aforementioned Tuvok certainly; much to my dismay the Janeway / Tuvok friendship - one of my favourite things about the series from day one - disappeared almost entirely in later seasons. Chuckles I was less concerned about given I never found him even slightly interesting anyway, but it was disappointing to see these characters - with the exception of Chuckles, all of whom I liked from the start - treated so poorly.

Perceptions are very much an individual thing and I know not everyone agrees with me when I say it seemed Janeway was shunted to one side as the series progressed. However, it wasn't really the case, and certainly compared to some characters she remained as prominent as she ever was for the duration of the series.

Which brings me to this:

However, I think the only season they used her too much was 4, in order to hook the audience and keep the show on the air.

Agreed. Again, it's a matter of perception (I have better things to do than consult lists of line counts and try to make them "prove" something) but Seven did seem to feature heavily in season four. That's only logical; we had to get to know the character somehow. The fact it seemed to persist thereafter is more to do with the character and how interesting Jeri Ryan managed to make her (I've said it before and will again that Seven would have been a horrendous character if portrayed by a lesser actress).

Anyway, I think from season 4 forward, the show found its "Big Three," Janeway, Seven and the Doctor. Previously, the show kind of floundered along in seasons 2 and 3 after a strong season 1 IMHO. I am one of the few who can't stand the scenery - chewing Seska or the Caveman Klingon Kazon. Seska makes me want to vomit every time she is on screen.

I didn't find her that far over the top, but to each their own. What interests me is the notion of Voyager having a "big three". It's a good point and one I agree with. That, of course, contributed to the other characters seeming to fade into the background (with occasional moments of prominence, of course).

I clearly disagree with Uber Feminist Michelle Erica "I Hate Voyager/Janeway" Green and her reviews.

Join the club.

The only Star Trek series not to have a big three is DS9, probably the only series to showcase its entire regular and recurring cast.

Its producers also had the luxury of not having UPN breathing down their necks and dictating what was and was not done. So many of Voyager's problems (and much as I enjoy the show it had plenty of 'em) come back to the producers effectively having their hands tied by UPN. Most unfortunate.

 

[Captain Worf]

Wow, this thread is like a recreation of the debates I had with friends during Voyager's fourth and fifth seasons. I liked the show a lot back then but got tired of it seeming like it revolved around Seven.

Its producers also had the luxury of not having UPN breathing down their necks and dictating what was and was not done. So many of Voyager's problems (and much as I enjoy the show it had plenty of 'em) come back to the producers effectively having their hands tied by UPN. Most unfortunate.

Interesting. I was only 10 or 11 years old at the time of seasons 4 and 5 so I didn't follow the behind the scenes stuff. Was the show in danger of being canceled during season 3?

 

[Garth Rockett]

It did seem that Janeway had less of substance to do as time went by. It did seem that Seven - and later the EMH - had more substantive roles in the series. Count all the lines you like but that was the impression that I and apparently some others gained.

That was certainly my impression at the time. Regardless of how line counts and feature episodes actually break down statistically, how it seemed to me as a viewer was Janeway was the third-most featured character, behind Seven and the EMH.

I don't know that a more Janeway-centric approach might have helped the later seasons in my view, as I was never a huge Janeway fan. However, the lack of focus on Tuvok and Paris certainly hurt IMO. I've only recently started buying the DVD's (I'm up to S3 now) and my appreciation for Neelix has gone up on this rewatching, so I think I'll miss him also as I get to the later seasons.

 

[exodus]

Well, I guess the question is: If people wanted more interaction and stories that involved Tuvok, Neelix, Paris & Torres.... Why was veiwership dropping at a steady rate during the first 3 seasons when they were giving us that?

A character like Seven would have never been on the show if it wasn't for that reason & there wouldn't be this question of Janeway's role if fan support was responding positively to the dynamics of the first few years.

 

[kimc]

I agree my poor Tuvie got shorted.

Yours? Since when??

He's mine -get over it.

It did seem that Seven - and later the EMH - had more substantive roles in the series. Count all the lines you like but that was the impression that I and apparently some others gained.

Which could be attributed to the lack of character development for Janeway after Braga took over. It was obvious he did not know how to write for a female leader, imo. so her character became one-dimensional which may be why some view her as inconsistent.

Other characters suffered in similar manners. Tuvok used to present the "logical, alien viewpoint" and that character dimension went to Seven. Harry was the "whizkid on the bridge" but that character dimention went to Seven, etc.

Well, I guess the question is: If people wanted more interaction and stories that involved Tuvok, Neelix, Paris & Torres.... Why was veiwership dropping at a steady rate during the first 3 seasons when they were giving us that?

A character like Seven would have never been on the show if it wasn't for that reason & there wouldn't be this question of Janeway's role if fan support was responding positively to the dynamics of the first few years.

I personally think it's because the show wasn't sticking to its premise which was quite a good one. UPN was calling the shots and they weren't letting the creative team try anything new or risky. Also, with other sci fi shows out there taking chances the same success formula that worked for Trek before was becoming stale.

So UPN decided to spice things up by adding a "hot babe" to the show. Yes, this did work for a while and they're plain lucky they cast a babe who could also act. However, by late season six Seven had become just another part of the formula - with crotch shots.

For me it was the premise and the original characters that got me into the show and I hung on through it for those flashes of brilliance UPN sometimes let them get away with. I'm still enjoying Voyager to this day thanks to all the talented fanfiction writers out there who have taken the original premise and characters and run with it.

 

[teya]

Which could be attributed to the lack of character development for Janeway after Braga took over. It was obvious he did not know how to write for a female leader, imo. so her character became one-dimensional which may be why some view her as inconsistent.

Yet, oddly enough, Kate said in interviews that she preferred Braga's take on Janeway to Jeri Taylor's. To each her own, I suppose.

As for presenting line counts, I simply did that to back up my perception--which is also apparently shared by others--that Janeway did not fade into the background in the latter seasons. The statistician in me. So sue me.

 

[kimc]

Yet, oddly enough, Kate said in interviews that she preferred Braga's take on Janeway to Jeri Taylor's. To each her own, I

I enjoy Mulgrew's performance of Janeway but as a person she's not the "put it out there" type that actors like Beltran are. That's probably served her well over the years. If the interview was given during Voyager's run then of course she thought Braga was doing a good job.

This may or may not be her true opinion, who knows?

As for the line counts that was just Orac Zen picking on me yet again because she THINKS she can!

 

[teya]

Yet, oddly enough, Kate said in interviews that she preferred Braga's take on Janeway to Jeri Taylor's. To each her own, I

I enjoy Mulgrew's performance of Janeway but as a person she's not the "put it out there" type that actors like Beltran are. That's probably served her well over the years. If the interview was given during Voyager's run then of course she thought Braga was doing a good job.

This may or may not be her true opinion, who knows?

Well, I preferred the latter season Janeway to the early seasons, too, so if that's Kate's opinion, there's one thing we agree on. (There's at least one more this political season. ).

As for the line counts that was just Orac Zen picking on me yet again because she THINKS she can!

Since I was the one who posted them, I fail to see how she's picking on you.

But you can both rest assured I won't make that mistake again.

 

[CorporalClegg]

One thing I will agree on is Janeway was certainly "looser."

Whether that due to the writing, Kate being more comfortable with the role or simply her change in performance, or all of the above, I can't say; but, I do like it better.

In the early seasons, I sometimes thought she was as tightly wound as her hair.

 

[Orac Zen]

It did seem that Janeway had less of substance to do as time went by. It did seem that Seven - and later the EMH - had more substantive roles in the series. Count all the lines you like but that was the impression that I and apparently some others gained.

That was certainly my impression at the time. Regardless of how line counts and feature episodes actually break down statistically, how it seemed to me as a viewer was Janeway was the third-most featured character, behind Seven and the EMH.

Yep. This is one reason why I mentioned the whole line-counting thing. Perceptions aren't always easy to get rid of once they're formed.

He's mine -get over it.

Poor kim's delusional again.

Which could be attributed to the lack of character development for Janeway after Braga took over. It was obvious he did not know how to write for a female leader, imo. so her character became one-dimensional which may be why some view her as inconsistent.

Other characters suffered in similar manners. Tuvok used to present the "logical, alien viewpoint" and that character dimension went to Seven. Harry was the "whizkid on the bridge" but that character dimention went to Seven, etc.

Yeah, this works too. It was one thing to give Seven a lot of time when the character was first introduced, but it did seem - there's that word again - to persist long afterward. And various character traits did seem to be absorbed by her, at the expense of other characters.

As for the line counts that was just Orac Zen picking on me yet again because she THINKS she can!

More delusions. When have I ever picked on you??

Since I was the one who posted them, I fail to see how she's picking on you.

But you can both rest assured I won't make that mistake again.

What mistake would that be? You introduced the line counts to make a point. Others mentioned that perceptions sometimes outweigh such things. And I also wanted to be a bit light-hearted about it, given the numerous (silly, repetitive and at this distance, completely pointless) Kate vs. Jeri discussions we've seen around here that have become heated, unpleasant and annoying for those of us who like both actresses and the characters they played.

Or something like that, anyway.

I plan to rewatch the series (with the usual exceptions) in the near future. It'll be interesting to see how my own perceptions hold up and / or have changed since I last did that.

 

[NKemp3]

I'll put it this way.

I can recall many lines or episodes featuring Janeway that gave her allot too say & do.
I can't barely remember Tuvok or Neelix saying or doing much of anything beyond season 4.

Agreed, I don't thinks they call it "Totally Kate" for nothing.

Maybe she had more lines or as many lines. Maybe she had as much screen time. But her being the drive of the show, the main focus of the storylines did indeed drop with the introduction of Betty Sue aka Seven of Nine. She certainly got less character development during those final seasons. Of course the majority of the rest of the cast got treated even worst so Janeway's role looks great in comparison.

 

[NKemp3]

Well, I guess the question is: If people wanted more interaction and stories that involved Tuvok, Neelix, Paris & Torres.... Why was veiwership dropping at a steady rate during the first 3 seasons when they were giving us that?

A character like Seven would have never been on the show if it wasn't for that reason & there wouldn't be this question of Janeway's role if fan support was responding positively to the dynamics of the first few years.

And yet despite all the fanboy drooling over Seven of Nine that ended up leading to a lot of buzz for that character, the ratings of VOY continued to drop. Its first season ratings were better than its ratings for its final three or four years. Since you wanted to throw viewership numbers out there then you cannot ignore that fact.

 

[kimc]

When have I ever picked on you??

You know, they say memory is one of the first things to start going.

I plan to rewatch the series (with the usual exceptions) in the near future. It'll be interesting to see how my own perceptions hold up and / or have changed since I last did that.

Me too. Actually I had started but got distracted by the BSG 3 box set but once I've had my fill of that it will be interesting to not only see if the perceptions remain the same but if I'll be able to make it all the way through Season 7 again...

 

[exodus]

Well, I guess the question is: If people wanted more interaction and stories that involved Tuvok, Neelix, Paris & Torres.... Why was veiwership dropping at a steady rate during the first 3 seasons when they were giving us that?

A character like Seven would have never been on the show if it wasn't for that reason & there wouldn't be this question of Janeway's role if fan support was responding positively to the dynamics of the first few years.

And yet despite all the fanboy drooling over Seven of Nine that ended up leading to a lot of buzz for that character, the ratings of VOY continued to drop. Its first season ratings were better than its ratings for its final three or four years. Since you wanted to throw viewership numbers out there then you cannot ignore that fact.

Just like DS9's veiwership and all merchendising based on Trek, proving it's wasn't the shows dynamic but rather Trek's fan based on a whole that was declining.

However, plastering Seven of Nine's image on every magazine cover helped make her character a house hold name giving the show recognition to viewers outside the fanboy fan base. You didn't have to watch Trek but a major majority of men know the character of Seven of Nine.

 

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

Did Janeway Get Shorted in the Later Seasons?

No, she appeared to still be 5'8'' to me.

 

[teya]

Did Janeway Get Shorted in the Later Seasons?

No, she appeared to still be 5'8'' to me.

That's kind of funny, given that Kate confessed to being 5'3" at one convention (her bio says she's 5'5").

 

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

Did Janeway Get Shorted in the Later Seasons?

No, she appeared to still be 5'8'' to me.

That's kind of funny, given that Kate confessed to being 5'3" at one convention (her bio says she's 5'5").

Really? She seemed so much taller on the TV screen.

 

[teya]

No, she appeared to still be 5'8'' to me.

That's kind of funny, given that Kate confessed to being 5'3" at one convention (her bio says she's 5'5").

Really? She seemed so much taller on the TV screen.

Well, like all the women on Trek (with the sole exception of 6'0" Terry Farrell), Kate wore heels.

To compare heights, though... Jeri is 5'8" (actually, I think she's shorter, too, but she's certainly no shorter than 5'6").

 

[INACTIVESamusAranX]

That's kind of funny, given that Kate confessed to being 5'3" at one convention (her bio says she's 5'5").

Really? She seemed so much taller on the TV screen.

Well, like all the women on Trek (with the sole exception of 6'0" Terry Farrell), Kate wore heels.

To compare heights, though... Jeri is 5'8" (actually, I think she's shorter, too, but she's certainly no shorter than 5'6").

Huh...you learn something new everyday.

 

[Mrs Paris]

Really? She seemed so much taller on the TV screen.

Well, like all the women on Trek (with the sole exception of 6'0" Terry Farrell), Kate wore heels.

To compare heights, though... Jeri is 5'8" (actually, I think she's shorter, too, but she's certainly no shorter than 5'6").

Huh...you learn something new everyday.

also, ALL female uniforms were "padded"