Spoilers Foundation Adaptation Series on AppleTV+ (Discussion and Spoilers)
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I have been pleasantly surprised by season 3 so far, after all the reported turmoil (mid-production stop, showrunner leaving, budget cuts and production issues)
It has been very entertaining so far, but I wonder - without knowing where the story goes - if the inevitable seeming Mule confrontation will happen this season or only in a potential future one and whether foundation and empire are actually teaming up.
the series is kinda like a chess game across the millennia.
Can't wait to find out as to how it continues after the final scene in this weeks episode when Gaal's ship was boarded by Demezel.
I miss Salvor Hardin's character a lot tough, she was one of my favorite characters. Would love to see more Hari Seldon (in whatever form) and Alexander Siddig's character.
It has been very entertaining so far, but I wonder - without knowing where the story goes - if the inevitable seeming Mule confrontation will happen this season or only in a potential future one and whether foundation and empire are actually teaming up.
the series is kinda like a chess game across the millennia.
Can't wait to find out as to how it continues after the final scene in this weeks episode when Gaal's ship was boarded by Demezel.
I miss Salvor Hardin's character a lot tough, she was one of my favorite characters. Would love to see more Hari Seldon (in whatever form) and Alexander Siddig's character.
Be interesting see how they fit the character of Mis in given it was mainly in the search for the Second Foundation which they've brought in much earlier but in a different location and there's no post empire/sack & looted Trantor (then again I could be conflegrating parts of the second and third books - it's been quite a while since I read them).
Speaking of The Mule, I was introduced to the original trilogy by father and his favorite part The Mule and search for Second Foundation.
After watching episode 2 just now, it occurred to me to wonder that myself. So far, I've found the Mule very badly written, just going around blatantly announcing what his evil powers and schemes are, overexplaining everything and showing off with no subtlety -- when Asimov's Mule was all about deviousness and misdirection. It would make more sense of that if you're right.
This week's episode gave us some long awaited meet ups and an barely audible hint 
Brother Day's costume and get up was stonery... I'm unsure exactly as to what happened at the very end when he visits
the lack of the charismatic brother Dusk and Dawn was felt, but I guess they needed to get the non Gaal Demezel part room to breath as well.
Hoping we get more Dusk, Seldon and Alexander Siddig's doctor/professor.
Brother Day's costume and get up was stonery... I'm unsure exactly as to what happened at the very end when he visits
his concubine/lover. I thought she was murdered, was she a clone - and what's up with her life mate emepror shooting lady, part of the robot religion?
Hoping we get more Dusk, Seldon and Alexander Siddig's doctor/professor.
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Well, I'm all caught up now, and yes, it certainly seems that they're playing out Asimov's version of the Mule's story, with some modifications. Indeed, the story arc this season seems to be following Asimov more closely than either of the first two seasons. A lot of the stuff with Bayta and Magnifico seems practically verbatim. (I am coming to like this version of Bayta, who's my favorite character in the books, although I envisioned her as brunette. Asimov has a reputation for not writing women well, but I think Bayta was very impressive.)
One thing, though:
No, Demerzel said that she wiped Song's memory and sent her back home, as is normally done with Imperial concubines and would've been done to Song long before if Day hadn't insisted on keeping her. That's the whole reason Day went to Mycogen, so he could find her, in the mistaken belief that she loved him and would want him back. And he found she was just pretending to care for him out of fear and wants nothing to do with him now that she's back with her life partner.
One thing, though:
Episode 6 showed the person who's probably a decoy Mule talking in private about Gaal Dornick being like him, implying he's actually a Mentallic after all. Or has the actual Mule just programmed him to believe he's the Mule, to the point of putting his own dreams into the decoy's mind?
No, Demerzel said that she wiped Song's memory and sent her back home, as is normally done with Imperial concubines and would've been done to Song long before if Day hadn't insisted on keeping her. That's the whole reason Day went to Mycogen, so he could find her, in the mistaken belief that she loved him and would want him back. And he found she was just pretending to care for him out of fear and wants nothing to do with him now that she's back with her life partner.
So we think but she might actually had loved him. It’s a bit repetitive otherwise with the live story from season one.
I don't recall what you're referring to from season 1, but come on, she was a married woman (or the equivalent), possibly strictly lesbian by preference, who was required to submit to being a sex slave for an absolute dictator because he wanted her and she didn't have the power to refuse. Basically she was his rape victim and his prisoner. It's disingenuous in the extreme to think she could actually have loved him.
Also, note how they wrote his appeal to her to come back to him. He insisted "You loved me" -- but he never, ever said "I love you." Because he's not capable of love, only the narcissism and self-gratification of an autocrat. He wanted her back as a possession, for his own happiness, not hers.
Dusk going from caring to ruthless within seconds with that ferret... really believed in his last days he might have had an actual change of heart. Guess not.
Wonder if he'll keep his Foundation leader/lover at this side to torture her/assert victory over her before her/his/their end or if he really wants to protect her and is just working on his a final surprise/big bang with his secret project and this was just the emperor's cold streak.
Days hallucination-experience was a weird ride, but an interesting evolution of both Demezel and this Day's character with those flashbacks and the revelation that freedom always wins vs love.
At the end of the episode I'm no longer sure how his former concubine/lover feels or who's side she's on - with Emperor Day a bit or still only with her life partner/robot religion.
Why has the "robot-priest" what looks like a robot skull on his stick? Weird way of affection of their religious "god:ess"?
I found the Mule flashback lame, if it's just that family trauma that resulted in his powers manifesting it doesn't make him any more simpathetic or likeable. It's just a tragic story. Would have prefered his origins to remain more mysterious/not explained.
The present day stuff of the Mule felt drawn out. At least the annoying foundation "royal" leader or whatever is no more.
I'm intrigued about the Vault Harry Seldon (Hologram?!) talking with the Mule.
Mr. Mallow not bowing to his uncle or the Mule and escaping without his seriously injured Ms. Mallow is an interesting development. Doubt we've seen the last of her (and I hope not).
I just feel there's more to Ms. Mallow and the Magnifico guy and how/why they connect(ed).
the Magnifco-Music fella "conveniently" is absent/AWOL since last weeks episode and I hope he's not just secretely the manipulating Mule with "the Mule" being his decoy - maybe it's the Mule's sibling from the flashbacks who he gave away?
As for Gaal's part time lover escaping makes me go hmmm. I seriously wonder if he isn't a triple agent (1st and 2nd foundation and now the mule) basically if he hasn't been infected and (unknowingly turned) by the Mule already.
Anway looking forward to next week.
I think this season is gonna end with Gaal vs the Mule confrontation we've often seen in the visions, somehow then Dusk's secret thing influences things and results in Gaal floating in space. Elsewhere Demezel maybe regaining her freedom becasue of that secret Dusk thing altering her programming, but nor before she created a final and possibly modified Dawn, Day and Dusk each (the love part).
Wonder if he'll keep his Foundation leader/lover at this side to torture her/assert victory over her before her/his/their end or if he really wants to protect her and is just working on his a final surprise/big bang with his secret project and this was just the emperor's cold streak.
Days hallucination-experience was a weird ride, but an interesting evolution of both Demezel and this Day's character with those flashbacks and the revelation that freedom always wins vs love.
At the end of the episode I'm no longer sure how his former concubine/lover feels or who's side she's on - with Emperor Day a bit or still only with her life partner/robot religion.
Why has the "robot-priest" what looks like a robot skull on his stick? Weird way of affection of their religious "god:ess"?
I found the Mule flashback lame, if it's just that family trauma that resulted in his powers manifesting it doesn't make him any more simpathetic or likeable. It's just a tragic story. Would have prefered his origins to remain more mysterious/not explained.
The present day stuff of the Mule felt drawn out. At least the annoying foundation "royal" leader or whatever is no more.
I'm intrigued about the Vault Harry Seldon (Hologram?!) talking with the Mule.
Mr. Mallow not bowing to his uncle or the Mule and escaping without his seriously injured Ms. Mallow is an interesting development. Doubt we've seen the last of her (and I hope not).
I just feel there's more to Ms. Mallow and the Magnifico guy and how/why they connect(ed).
the Magnifco-Music fella "conveniently" is absent/AWOL since last weeks episode and I hope he's not just secretely the manipulating Mule with "the Mule" being his decoy - maybe it's the Mule's sibling from the flashbacks who he gave away?
As for Gaal's part time lover escaping makes me go hmmm. I seriously wonder if he isn't a triple agent (1st and 2nd foundation and now the mule) basically if he hasn't been infected and (unknowingly turned) by the Mule already.
Anway looking forward to next week.
I think this season is gonna end with Gaal vs the Mule confrontation we've often seen in the visions, somehow then Dusk's secret thing influences things and results in Gaal floating in space. Elsewhere Demezel maybe regaining her freedom becasue of that secret Dusk thing altering her programming, but nor before she created a final and possibly modified Dawn, Day and Dusk each (the love part).
Based on Dr. Seldon's reaction, I don't think it's strictly factual. I'm not sure if the Mule himself knows that, though.
It was pretty obvious in the dinner table scene that Dusk was only being nice to the ferret to win Ambassador Quent's approval, given that he was mean to it until she objected.
Aside from that, though, that was a remarkably rich and well-written scene, with so many things going on, so many shifts of tone.
Still, they didn't have to show the ferret's corpse after he killed it. The squeal was enough. I wish TV makers would learn that showing graphic violence isn't adult or smart or sophisticated, it's just crass and gratuitous.
Dusk and Day have the same basic psychology -- they want to be loved, respectively by the ambassador and Song, but are incapable of love themselves and are "not raised to be kind," as I think Dawn said earlier in the season. Dusk wants Quent to be with him, maybe he even cares about her insofar as he's capable of it, but he's still basically a sociopath and a narcissist, so he's not going to be nice to Day's pets if he doesn't get anything out of it.
And we learn that Demerzel actually was Daneel in an earlier life. I'd wondered if they were just borrowing the name Demerzel for a distinct robot character, but no, she really is Daneel.
Now I'm thinking that when Foundation ends, the producers could jump way, way back in the timeline and do a Lije Baley/Daneel Olivaw prequel series. Maybe they could even keep Laura Birn as Daneel, though it seems more likely that Daneel changed appearance upon adopting the Demerzel identity.
Anyway, giving someone a potent hallucinogen seems like a really inefficient form of interrogation. How can you trust anything he says to be real, if he's even coherent enough to speak?
She was his sex slave, with no choice in the matter. A rape victim cannot be called a lover. And no, she doesn't care about him. She passionately hates him for enslaving a holy robot -- we saw that quite clearly. (Although it was Cleon I who enslaved Demerzel, and the current Cleons aren't responsible for that; still, they're all part of the same institution, beneficiaries of her enslavement, so I can't blame Song for feeling that way.)
It seems to be the skull of an actual robot, and perhaps even retains some slight functionality, since Sunmaster-18 said it would scream Day's fate. (That was Blake Ritson, by the way, Brainiac from Krypton. I thought his voice sounded familiar.)
You mean Mayor Indbur?
If they're following the books, then there's absolutely more to Bayta and Magnifico's story.
So have you read the books, or are you just speculating?
Han Pritcher escaped from probable torture and execution at the Mule's hands. Why would that make you think he was turned by the Mule?
Yeap, the squeal would have been enough to convey the same message.
Thanks, must have missed that during my watch.
I am not disagreeing with anything you said, still there was a moment that felt like hesitation on what was about to happen, maybe regret or even a dash of sympathy when their robot-stick leader showed up.
Had to look up a picture since the name didn't ring a bell, but yes, exactly that guy.
so my hunch about those two and some of their scene and story oddities has somekind of merits. I don't wanna know more for now. I am totally just speculating. Haven't read or listened to the books. Don't know anything about the Foundation series other than lots of people find Asimov's works and particular this series an epic sci-fi masterpiece for the (cl)eons - pun intended
5D chess or whatever by the Mule. Maybe he doesn't know it yet that he's under the Mule's influence - back when they first met, didn't he have the black or bloodshot eyes or whatnot. Maybe it takes longer for the Mule to control another mentallic or whatever they are called.
I'm not sure where the show is heading but i feel they are treading water at the moment, especially with the Cleon storyline. While in the first 2 seasons they were directly connected to the Foundation and Seldon's plan it feels now they are much more disconnected and the writers of the show don't know what to do with them as they have little story purpose at this stage, so they throw things at the wall to see what sticks.
Given how this season is developing i believe that some events will carry on to the next season ( i hope there will be one, it seems the show is in slight trouble and a 4th season is not guaranteed) mainly because i think there may be some important story elements still to be revealed and the season is too far gone with a complete resolution taking too much time for this season. The season finale might be a banger though
Given how this season is developing i believe that some events will carry on to the next season ( i hope there will be one, it seems the show is in slight trouble and a 4th season is not guaranteed) mainly because i think there may be some important story elements still to be revealed and the season is too far gone with a complete resolution taking too much time for this season. The season finale might be a banger though
So far they've been following the books moderately closely with the Mule plot, so I have a fair idea where it's probably heading.
As for the Cleons, it doesn't feel to me like they're treading water, it feels like they're accelerating toward the final collapse of the dynasty.
Except we've been told clearly that the Seldon Plan predicts the fall of the Empire, and surely the way the show would dramatize that is by showing the fall of "Empire," i.e. the Cleonic Dynasty. Their story purpose is to be a microcosm for the Empire.
Clone Wars slang turning into real world slang was not on my bingo card.
I don't know that Asimov regretted the ending to Foundation and Earth. He just couldn't figure out what would come after that. Probably for the best.
Personally, I think Gaia/Galaxia is a bit of a narrative dead-end, and I wish Asimov had explored further the Foundation/Second Foundation conflict that drives the plot of Foundation's Edge... because the First Foundation was never supposed to know the Second Foundation even existed until (presumably) the point where the Second Foundation supplanted the First Foundation as the ruling power in the galaxy. The First Foundation builds the empire, the Second Foundation usurps them. The Second Foundation believes it's a benign force in the galaxy, guiding humanity, but the power to control minds and shape the future is the ultimate power, and, to quote Lord Acton, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." The paternalism (separately) of the Second Foundation and Daneel mark them, in my eyes, as the villains of the overall saga.
