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DC Cinematic Universe ( The James Gunn era)

Post-Crisis Superman killed Zod and his two companions in order to prevent them from conquering Earth, but that resulted in a deep moral crisis for Superman to the point where he basically exiled himself to space until he found his moral center again. And things like that are possible in serialized story-telling. It does not work in a movie when the act of killing happens three minutes before the credits roll.
 
Post-Crisis Superman killed Zod and his two companions in order to prevent them from conquering Earth, but that resulted in a deep moral crisis for Superman to the point where he basically exiled himself to space until he found his moral center again. And things like that are possible in serialized story-telling. It does not work in a movie when the act of killing happens three minutes before the credits roll.
Not to mention, before that self-exile, he basically suffered a psychotic break from the moral trauma of the act.

I’d just as soon Superman never be portrayed as killing, but if you’re gonna do it, this was the way. Treat it as an event with enormous repercussions. Make it a character and story point, not just the shock-value flourish of a director with distinctly nihilistic tendencies.
 
Post-Crisis Superman killed Zod and his two companions in order to prevent them from conquering Earth
Don't you hate it when movies are consistent with the comics?
Superman continued killing in BvS and ZSJL.
Who did he kill in BvS other than Doomsday? The guy in Africa? ( And the film kind of highlights his refusal to kill Lex. )

He killed no one in ZSJL.
 
I don't think that Superman is against killing in the same way Batman is. I just don't think it served any purpose in the story other than a juvenile attempt to make Superman look edgy by people who don't understand Superman beyond him being a male power fantasy.

Superman is entirely against killing. He even gets upset when he lets someone die by accident. Even in the Byrne comic when he does "kill" Phantom Zone villains, there are consequences. It has been a part of his character for almost his entire existence. Even in the movie, we see him upset over the action, but that is only in the moment and we don't see it again.
 
I don't think that Superman is against killing in the same way Batman is.

I'm not sure where that perception comes from. Historically, they and their contemporary comics characters have generally been pretty consistently on the same page about it. In the early, pulp-inspired comics, they were both somewhat lethal, but then got toned down to be more kid-friendly in the early 1940s and were depicted as never using lethal force. In the comics, they've both been very consistently against killing ever since, with rare exceptions like that Byrne Phantom Zone story. It's only in screen adaptations that they've been more prone to lethal force, or to "I don't have to save you' copouts.
 
Further to Christopher's point, Hollywood in general seems more prone to choosing the lethal option. Most of the Trek films, for example, end with the heroes causing the villain's death. Why this should be I don't really know, other than a surmise it's born of similar logic to sex so often being used as a shorthand for intimate relationships. It's an easy way to narrative catharsis, the villain getting what they deserve, the romantic tension resolved. Problem is, at least in my opinion, it's too often not a satisfying approach, because it isn't properly earned. Or, in the case of Superman killing, goes so strongly against the popular perception of the character.

And I agree with Awesome Possum that everything happens in a story because the teller wants it to. The trick is not making the artifice obvious, and thus not undermining your character, emotional, thematic intent. It needs to feel like a natural development, with build-up and consequences, and that's really hard to do, especially if it's heavy, dark stuff like the "awful choice" trope that seems so prevalent at the moment. You do it wrong, it just feels like you're being grim for the sake of it, a trap that, for me, so many keep falling into, including Zack Snyder.

I can only hope James Gunn can avoid it.
 
Superman is entirely against killing. He even gets upset when he lets someone die by accident. Even in the Byrne comic when he does "kill" Phantom Zone villains, there are consequences. It has been a part of his character for almost his entire existence. Even in the movie, we see him upset over the action, but that is only in the moment and we don't see it again.
I got into the comics in the early 90s and he'd occasionally kill, but there was always a weight to it. The biggest probably being Doomsday where he has to kill him because it's the only way to stop him and kills Supes in the process. I also felt that he's willing to kill if given no other option and he's going to do everything he can before it gets to that, but it has happened occasionally. He's not really defined by it in the same way Batman is.
 
I feel like even Batman’s code against killing may be a bit overstated. I don’t read many Batman comics, but one I did read not long ago was the “War of Jokes and Riddles” arc, at the end of which Batman tries to kill the Riddler, and is prevented from doing so only by the intervention of the Joker (of all people). I’m sure it’s hardly typical — it’s treated as a BFD in the story, and the secret guilt of it has weighed heavily on Bruce ever since — but it does suggest he isn’t incapable of it under the right circumstances.
 
I didn’t (and still don’t) have any objections to Superman killing Zod in MoS, though if a different outcome had happened I certainly wouldn’t have been disappointed. Essentially, I chalked up a number of criticisms from others regarding Superman/Clark’s behaviour and choices to the fact Cavil’s Superman has far less training/experience than any other movie Superman—and he was raised by parents who were not the paragons of virtue depicted elsewhere. As such, among other things, his decision to kill Zod is consistent with the background given him. I viewed it as a rookie facing incredible challenges making a choice he probably wouldn’t make with more training and/or experience. Reeve has years with Jor-El at the fortress, Routh is basically an extension of Reeve, so also experienced, and Corenswet is in his third year. Cavil is essentially on his second or third day.

I know my view will never persuade anyone who dislikes what Snyder did, but I don’t think one needs to share Snyder’s perspective on why Superman killed Zod (it’s not at all persuasive) to find an explanation for the choice in-story. As to the decision to create the scenario in the first place, there’s certainly room for debate, but it didn’t seem unbelievable in the moment, to me, given the rookie status of this Superman.

It would have been quite out of place in the current movie, especially as Superman is not a rookie. If Corenswet’s version had killed anyone, the whole framework would have had to be considerably different and far more options would have had to have been explored.
 
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Don't you hate it when movies are consistent with the comics?

Some hate it when it does not fit a character history that never existed, meaning the idea Superman never killed, or if he did, its some modern take on the character, which is patently false.

Who did he kill in BvS other than Doomsday? The guy in Africa? ( And the film kind of highlights his refusal to kill Lex. )

Exactly.

He killed no one in ZSJL.

True.

In Man of Steel, it was quite clear Superman had to make a decision on the spot, or else Zod would've incinerated that family, and his reaction after killing him was not one of relief or satisfaction. He was anguished, yet some continue to lie about the scene.
 
I didn’t (and still don’t) have any objections to Superman killing Zod in MoS, though if a different outcome had happened I certainly wouldn’t have been disappointed. Essentially, I chalked up a number of criticisms from others regarding Superman/Clark’s behaviour and choices to the fact Cavil’s Superman has far less training/experience than any other movie Superman—and he was raised by parents who were not the paragons of virtue depicted elsewhere. As such, among other things, his decision to kill Zod is consistent with the background given him. I viewed it as a rookie facing incredible challenges making a choice he probably wouldn’t make with more training and/or experience. Reeve has years with Jor-El at the fortress, Routh is basically an extension of Reeve, so also experienced, and Corenswet is in his third year. Cavil is essentially on his second or third day.

I know my view will never persuade anyone who dislikes what Snyder did, but I don’t think one needs to share Snyder’s perspective on why Superman killed Zod (it’s not at all persuasive) to find an explanation for the choice in-story. As to the decision to create the scenario in the first place, there’s certainly room for debate, but it didn’t seem unbelievable in the moment, to me, given the rookie status of this Superman.
It wasn't unbelievable at all.

It was unnecessary.

It undermined the character, and lost a good part of the audience from that point onward.

Yes, it was entirely a writer's choice.

Anyway, it's over. Forever.
 
Further to Christopher's point, Hollywood in general seems more prone to choosing the lethal option. Most of the Trek films, for example, end with the heroes causing the villain's death. Why this should be I don't really know, other than a surmise it's born of similar logic to sex so often being used as a shorthand for intimate relationships. It's an easy way to narrative catharsis, the villain getting what they deserve, the romantic tension resolved. Problem is, at least in my opinion, it's too often not a satisfying approach, because it isn't properly earned. Or, in the case of Superman killing, goes so strongly against the popular perception of the character.

Yes, I've never been a fan of the Hollywood insistence that the villain needs to die at the end of the film. (Although it's not just Hollywood. I'm a fan of Japanese tokusatsu shows, but one part I'm not a fan of is the usual formula that every monster or villain gets killed by the hero/es.) The problem is that when superhero comics are adapted to movies, the usual practice is to alter them to fit a conventional movie formula, and your typical action movie formulas are generally about personal survival or revenge rather than selfless rescue of others, so you get things like Batman '89 where the Joker is retconned into the killer of Bruce's parents so that it becomes a personal revenge story, or the 2005 Fantastic Four movie where the climactic battle is purely about the FF trying to save their own lives rather than saving the world (and they even risk destroying the entire world to protect themselves, which is what villains do, not heroes). And of course, the conventional movie formula demands that the hero kill the villain or at least fail or decline to save them from dying some other way.


And I agree with Awesome Possum that everything happens in a story because the teller wants it to. The trick is not making the artifice obvious, and thus not undermining your character, emotional, thematic intent. It needs to feel like a natural development, with build-up and consequences, and that's really hard to do, especially if it's heavy, dark stuff like the "awful choice" trope that seems so prevalent at the moment. You do it wrong, it just feels like you're being grim for the sake of it, a trap that, for me, so many keep falling into, including Zack Snyder.

There was a ton of stuff in Man of Steel that wasn't earned by the narrative but was just tacked on because it was standard in a Superman story. Like, there was zero reason for Zod to land his doomsday device in Metropolis instead of anywhere else on the Earth's surface, because Clark had never even been to Metropolis at that point and it had no particular significance to him. And then there's the bit where Jenny sees Superman arrive and save Lois Lane after being completely absent during the previous 15-20 minutes of the city collapsing all around her, and Jenny looks at him adoringly and says "He saved us!" -- when the more likely reaction after all that would be "WHERE THE F--- HAVE YOU BEEN THIS WHOLE TIME WHEN WE NEEDED YOU, YOU $%*&%#????!!!"



I got into the comics in the early 90s and he'd occasionally kill, but there was always a weight to it. The biggest probably being Doomsday where he has to kill him because it's the only way to stop him and kills Supes in the process. I also felt that he's willing to kill if given no other option and he's going to do everything he can before it gets to that, but it has happened occasionally. He's not really defined by it in the same way Batman is.

If so, that's a change from the pre-Crisis Superman, who was just as committed to never killing as most superheroes were. Back then, heroes refusing to kill was the rule, not the exception.


I feel like even Batman’s code against killing may be a bit overstated. I don’t read many Batman comics, but one I did read not long ago was the “War of Jokes and Riddles” arc, at the end of which Batman tries to kill the Riddler, and is prevented from doing so only by the intervention of the Joker (of all people). I’m sure it’s hardly typical — it’s treated as a BFD in the story, and the secret guilt of it has weighed heavily on Bruce ever since — but it does suggest he isn’t incapable of it under the right circumstances.

I think modern comics writers often try too hard to make characters "edgy." I remember a controversial story from the late '80s, I think, that ended with Batman locking a villain in an underground cell that nobody else knew about and just walking away, implicitly leaving him to starve to death. I think maybe some other writer later retconned that he changed his mind and came back, but I don't recall for sure.


I remember reading a column on the Law and the Multiverse blog, which explored legal issues in comics and superhero movies/TV, that pointed out that there's a very good reason for superheroes to have a policy against killing. If a member of the police or the military kills someone in carrying out their duties, they have the weight of the state to support the legality of their actions (assuming it was done legally and out of necessity, and unfortunately often when it wasn't). But a private citizen acting as a vigilante has no such protection, so a superhero who killed would leave themselves open to prosecution or wrongful death lawsuits, and would probably lose whatever informal support or benign neglect they were afforded by the police and federal authorities. So even aside from moral considerations, it would simply be extremely unwise for a superhero who wasn't an official state actor to use lethal force if there were any other alternative.
 
Many people find "And then the killer went to trial and was sentenced to prison for a long time" narratively unsatisfying for one reason or another.

It may be declining belief in the justice system.

But it's not new. Westerns were the spine of the American film industry for generations. Stories were resolved by gunfire. Often, the "stand up and cheer" turning point was the heretofore gunshy protagonist strapping on a gun belt and confronting the villain in what was portrayed as an inevitable showdown.
 
I think modern comics writers often try too hard to make characters "edgy."
I’m not sure I’d disagree as a general proposition (though it’s less prevalent now than it was a decade or three ago, IMO), but I don’t think it applies to this particular story. It’s written by someone I would consider the most thoughtful, artful, and psychologically insightful writer in comics, and he’s not one to go for superficial “edge” (though I’m sure his vocal detractors would dispute that assertion).
 
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