Did Janeway Get Shorted in the Later Seasons?

[kimc]

I believe this supports my contention that Janeway may have had a lot of lines ("Fire phasers!") but the storylines were fewer. As to the quality of a few of those storylines (Spirit Folk ) that's another issue altogether!

Many of her "a lot of lines" were doing things like giving advice. (In Latent Image, for example, she's certainly not the star, but her philosophical conversations go far beyond "Coffee. Black.")

This is true. This is why I didn't include episodes like that in my Janeway list.

 

[teya]

I believe this supports my contention that Janeway may have had a lot of lines ("Fire phasers!") but the storylines were fewer. As to the quality of a few of those storylines (Spirit Folk ) that's another issue altogether!

Many of her "a lot of lines" were doing things like giving advice. (In Latent Image, for example, she's certainly not the star, but her philosophical conversations go far beyond "Coffee. Black.")

This is true. This is why I didn't include episodes like that in my Janeway list.

That philosophical advice and support Janeway handed out in "Latent Image" is very germane to her character. I agree that it goes well beyond "Coffee, black."

 

[Kegek]

That maybe how you feel, kimc but so far the majority that have replied don't agree.

I don't think the majority even addressed kimc's concern in this case, I certainly didn't. What they have said is that Janeway wasn't pushed into the sidelines. All kimc's statistics aim to prove is that Janeway had a marginally less important role in the show than Seven; both of whom have been fairly widely agreed to be focused on in the show.

 

[exodus]

That maybe how you feel, kimc but so far the majority that have replied don't agree.

I don't think the majority even addressed kimc's concern in this case, I certainly didn't. What they have said is that Janeway wasn't pushed into the sidelines. All kimc's statistics aim to prove is that Janeway had a marginally less important role in the show than Seven; both of whom have been fairly widely agreed to be focused on in the show.

Maaaaan, where you been? Kimc & I already covered this.


Frankly the answer I'm looking for that hasn't been addressed is my last question: Why is this Janeway vs. Seven even still an issue? Why can't we acknowledge both brought something worthy to the show and put this issue to bed once and for all?

 

[Kegek]

Maaaaan, where you been? Kimc & I already covered this.

Pray tell me where you qualified that your statement concerning the majority was misleading; I must have missed it.

 

[exodus]

Maaaaan, where you been? Kimc & I already covered this.

Pray tell me where you qualified that your statement concerning the majority was misleading; I must have missed it.

That's because I said no such thing.

 

[teya]

All kimc's statistics aim to prove is that Janeway had a marginally less important role in the show than Seven; both of whom have been fairly widely agreed to be focused on in the show.

Her statistics may *aim* to prove that, but I don't think they do--particularly when she doesn't apply the standards she uses to discern a Janeway episode and a Seven episode evenly.

Janeway was still the captain, and still the star of the show. Her character set the tenor for the show--more than I thought Sisko did on DS9.

 

[Kegek]

Her statistics may *aim* to prove that, but I don't think they do--particularly when she doesn't apply the standards she uses to discern a Janeway episode and a Seven episode evenly.

True. Likewise yours aim for the reverse. My opinion is that it's ultimately a matter of small degrees. Both Janeway and Seven were very prominent, and if one is more prominent than the other, it's by a thin margin. Too thin to be of any real importance, IMHO.

Janeway was still the captain, and still the star of the show. Her character set the tenor for the show--more than I thought Sisko did on DS9.

Oh, absolutely. DS9 was the one Trek show where the lead really could and did take a back seat.

 

[teya]

Her statistics may *aim* to prove that, but I don't think they do--particularly when she doesn't apply the standards she uses to discern a Janeway episode and a Seven episode evenly.

True. Likewise yours aim for the reverse.

Actually, all I'm aiming to do is refute the conventional wisdom that the show was stolen from Kate, leaving her character with as little to do as Chakotay and Tuvok.

I've never denied, nor would I, that the focus was on Janeway, Seven and the EMH.

 

[Akiraprise]

My opinion is that it's ultimately a matter of small degrees. Both Janeway and Seven were very prominent, and if one is more prominent than the other, it's by a thin margin. Too thin to be of any real importance, IMHO.

I agree. This is what this argument will really boil down to. Both characters were featured almost equal. It just seems like Seven was featured a lot more because she wasn't around in the first three seasons and they focused on her quite a bit in the last four.

I can live with both of them being the two leading co-stars. Did Seven steal some of Janeway's thunder? Yup. But, both characters were awesome in my book so I didn't mind. They both became the leads and had so much interaction between the two, even if Seven was the focus of an episode Janeway was often right there with her.

 

[Kegek]

I've never denied, nor would I, that the focus was on Janeway, Seven and the EMH.

I didn't say you did. I said you aimed for the reverse of what kimc was claiming, saying that Janeway had a slightly larger role than she suggests. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

Anyway, the important thing is that they drastically curtailed Neelix's role on the series. Can we agree on that?

 

[exodus]

Anyway, the important thing is that they drastically curtailed Neelix's role on the series. Can we agree on that?

I know I can, especially being one of the few that really liked him.


How can you hate anyone that wants to throw you a party for no good reason?

 

[teya]

Anyway, the important thing is that they drastically curtailed Neelix's role on the series. Can we agree on that?

I was happier to see Ensign Eager take a back seat.

And Chakotay had already been emasculated by the end of season 3, so any further fading into the background was appreciated.

 

[kimc]

I've never denied, nor would I, that the focus was on Janeway, Seven and the EMH.

I didn't say you did. I said you aimed for the reverse of what kimc was claiming, saying that Janeway had a slightly larger role than she suggests. Apologies if that wasn't clear.

Anyway, the important thing is that they drastically curtailed Neelix's role on the series. Can we agree on that?

Okay people. I think you're all missing the really important thing which is that I finally started a thread that did not die a quick death. W00t!

Seriously, numbers can be twisted to say anything and I won't deny that judging which character an episodes belonged to can be a subjective thing. I am however interested in people's perceptions - subjective or not.

As for Neelix I think the episode "Jetrel" proved that Neelix could be an interesting character.

 

[Kegek]

As for Neelix I think the episode "Jetrel" proved that Neelix could be an interesting character.

This is true. It's also virtually unlike any Neelix material done from S4 on. Aside from "Mortal Coil", I suppose. Plus, let's not forget "Fair Trade"...

I was happier to see Ensign Eager take a back seat.

And Chakotay had already been emasculated by the end of season 3, so any further fading into the background was appreciated.

Agreed. Say what you will about Neelix, but he actually had a personality, so he was hardly as mahogany as these gentlemen.

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
Neelix is, and always has been, one of my favorite Star Trek characters.

I never understood all the hate.

Of course, it might be because he reminds me so much of… well, me!

I’m generally loud and overly jovial. People generally tend to find me quite obnoxious … but they still love me anyhow.

 

[exodus]

^
Neelix is, and always has been, one of my favorite Star Trek characters.

I never understood all the hate.

Of course, it might be because he reminds me so much of… well, me!

I’m generally loud and overly jovial. People generally tend to find me quite obnoxious … but they still love me anyhow.

I'm not completely sure if everybody understands the deeper complexity of the character.

He was supposted to be annoyingly over exuberant. Several of the Voyager crew said so, the EMH, Tuvok, Be'Lanna, etc. However, his joy was actually a desperate cry to be loved, needed and to never be alone again. "Fair Trade" and "Once Upon A Time" showed how very desperate he was that he would go too extremes to fill that need. His smile was just a mask to hide his sorrow. It's also why it was so important for him to make Tuvok accept him and why he was jealous when Kes gave anyone but him attention.

 

[CorporalClegg]

^
Shrink much?

 

[exodus]

^
Shrink much?

Well, like you I "get" Neelix. A part of me identifies with him as well.

 

[Saxman1]

I am all the way up to the 7th season of VOY on DVD, having gone throught the series in order. I think that despite what I said in the past, the show got better with Seven. However, I think the only season they used her too much was 4, in order to hook the audience and keep the show on the air. Yeah, despite being totally hetero, I think Seven's costume was an idiotic ratings ploy, but hey, they wanted to keep the show going.

Anyway, I think from season 4 forward, the show found its "Big Three," Janeway, Seven and the Doctor. Previously, the show kind of floundered along in seasons 2 and 3 after a strong season 1 IMHO. I am one of the few who can't stand the scenery - chewing Seska or the Caveman Klingon Kazon. Seska makes me want to vomit every time she is on screen.

Janeway to me is pretty much the central axis around which all the action turns. She's clearly in control. With the focus on the big three, I think she became more important, not less. I clearly disagree with Uber Feminist Michelle Erica "I Hate Voyager/Janeway" Green and her reviews.

The only Star Trek series not to have a big three is DS9, probably the only series to showcase its entire regular and recurring cast.