Vulcans in command

[FPAlpha]

Hey,

something that popped into my head just now.

What's everybody's take on Vulcan's being in command over non-Vulcans?

The reason why i'm asking is that genuine empathy is very vital once you assume command over a group of people. I'm a manager, so i learned that a genuine heart to heart with a member of my team sometimes solves problems far more efficiently than being the boss and just giving out orders. It's also important that the empathy comes from a real place because humans ( and i assume all other species) will "feel" if it's just an act and if so this will do more damage than good.

How would Vulcans approach this? I mean empathy is not alien to them but they do try to suppress emotions and be as logical as possible but what if a heart to heart with someone is far better than a logical step by step approach to solving a problem? Would a Vulcan captain be able to drop his logic shields enough to show genuine empathy? Would they need to go through special training for this?

I'm curious what you all think.

 

[MarcKle1964]

Perhaps a friendly Vulcan who doesn't have a stick inserted inside him where it shouldn't be? SNW and ENT taught us that not all Vulcans are friendly, ethical or progressive like Spock.

One who has lived with humans like T'Pol who doesn't start twitching at the thought of lengthy future time with humans?

One who was rescued by human-ish folk like Bajorans and has learned emotions aren't bad, m'kay?

Surely there's a Vulcan captain who won't be a strident martinet and who encourages his crew to meditate to learn to regulate emotions?

The conflict/drama potential for the writers... starting with the search for candidates. (Imagines 'Kobayashi Maru' shenanigans to see how they do with things like exposure to odors lactose intolerant human produce while in elevators turbolifts or breath sounds or the human 24 hour schedule - just how long is a Vulcan day? Can they deal with not enough sleep?)

 

[FredH]

I’d think it’s all a matter of needing to adapt to the needs of the crew. Try flipping it: imagine a human serving on a Vulcan ship. They’ll have to adjust to working with mostly Vulcans, learn to “curb their enthusiasms”, so to speak, and adopt a certain amount of Vulcan shipboard and interpersonal etiquette. (And use a lot of deodorant.) In the same way, a decent Vulcan captain of a non-Vulcan crew will have to somewhat adapt to or work around the “crew culture” they’re in charge of. They don’t have to start cracking jokes, but they do have to learn a certain amount of “emotional intelligence”.

 

[Nyotarules]

By the 24th century there must have been training in Starfleet for Humans or Vulcans who wanted to serve on human ships and vice versa. USS Hera was mainly a Vulcan crew with a human captain (Geordi's mother). USS Saratoga looked like a very diverse crew with a Vulcan captain (Sisko's previous ship, DS9 S1E1E2).
So my take is, it was not an issue in the Trek universe.
The TNG crew should have been more diverse in the first place, you are sending out your flagship of the UFP, the USS Enterprise and its mainly 99% humans? Really?

 

[Oddish]

In "Resolutions", Tuvok handled being in command of Voyager quite well. Had circumstances required him to remain thus, I think he would have had a decent chance at getting Voyager home.

 

[at Quark's]

Not without frictions, though. (See Harry's 'conflict' with Tuvok). Such frictions might have escalated sooner or later.

 

[DonIago]

Not without frictions, though. (See Harry's 'conflict' with Tuvok). Such frictions might have escalated sooner or later.

Was that because Tuvok was Vulcan, or because he made a decision Harry didn't agree with?

 

[at Quark's]

Was that because Tuvok was Vulcan, or because he made a decision Harry didn't agree with?

The latter, but I do think part of the reason Tuvok made that decision was that he was Vulcan and approached the issue by a strictly logical angle ('by the Captain's orders'), etc.

I'd need to rewatch the episode to know for sure, though.

 

[DonIago]

The latter, but I do think part of the reason Tuvok made that decision was that he was Vulcan and approached the issue by a strictly logical angle ('by the Captain's orders'), etc.

I'd need to rewatch the episode to know for sure, though.

In other words, you'd say as a Vulcan he'd be more inclined to make a logical decision than a non-Vulcan?

I'm not sure I agree with that, but it's not a big deal.

 

[XCV330]

Logic suggests that Vulcans in officer training programs would be taught to have sensitivity to lead humans and non-humans with various cultural and species needs. If memory serves, T'Pol had to learn these qualities on the fly due to the rushed nature of the NX-01 flight, and the indisputable fact that humans were not ready. One would be more concerned with the morale implications of having offensive Tellarites or overly aggressive Andorians in a position of oversight over persons who may be biologically superior to them.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

I think ideally they'd be paired with a first officer who would balance their weaknesses and support their strengths. A Vulcan captain and a Betazoid XO could make a great team.

 

[Oddish]

Not without frictions, though. (See Harry's 'conflict' with Tuvok). Such frictions might have escalated sooner or later.

First of all, Harry was insubordinate. Tuvok handled him exactly as he should have. And as an aside, it's too bad we didn't get more of that Harry. It would have created a far more interesting character. And capable of growth.

Second, Tuvok was right. Janeway's final instruction to her crew in general and Tuvok in particular was to steer clear of the Vidiians. She and Tuvok understood that the lives of 150 crew took precedence over the lives of two. And while going back for Janeway certainly demonstrated the crew's regard for her, honoring her last request would have done the same.

Ironically, I think Tuvok's only mistake was continuing to wear his gold uniform, even though a red one befitted his actual status. It's almost like he wasn't really expecting that he'd be remaining in command...

 

[at Quark's]

First of all, Harry was insubordinate.

Second, Tuvok was right. Janeway's final instruction to her crew in general and Tuvok in particular was to steer clear of the Vidiians. She and Tuvok understood that the lives of 150 crew took precedence over the lives of two. And while going back for Janeway certainly demonstrated the crew's regard for her, honoring her last request would have done the same.

Not saying Harry wasn't. Also not saying Tuvok was wrong.

However, I don't think it would be too hard to dreg up instances where a Starfleet commanding officer risked the lives of many on some (logically speaking) ill-advised mission, just to save a (few) lost crewmember(s) (though I'll add, usually with the support of the senior officers). In humans, bonds of loyalty sometimes override 'logical' decisions; possibly less so in Vulcan officers. Those differences might create the kind of frictions I spoke of.

 

[Oddish]

Was that because Tuvok was Vulcan, or because he made a decision Harry didn't agree with?

The latter. Harry had never had any issue with Tuvok in the past. And in any case, Harry was really out of character here... he was acting more like an angsty middle schooler than a professional Starfleet officer.

In other words, you'd say as a Vulcan he'd be more inclined to make a logical decision than a non-Vulcan?

Seems obvious. The Vulcan people learned the hard way what their emotions, left to run wild, can do. Surak, who taught them to embrace logic, is practically their messiah.

I think ideally they'd be paired with a first officer who would balance their weaknesses and support their strengths. A Vulcan captain and a Betazoid XO could make a great team.

Janeway and Tuvok would as well. Chakotay didn't really have the strength to counterbalance her wild side.

Not saying Harry wasn't. Also not saying Tuvok was wrong.

However, I don't think it would be too hard to dreg up instances where a Starfleet commanding officer risked the lives of many on some (logically speaking) ill-advised mission, just to save a (few) lost crewmember(s) (though I'll add, usually with the support of the senior officers). In humans, bonds of loyalty sometimes override 'logical' decisions; possibly less so in Vulcan officers. Those differences might create the kind of frictions I spoke of.

Very true. I think Star Trek has shown more instances where the needs of the few outweighed the needs of the many than instances of the more logical sort. It's an irony of sorts that Troi's "kill Geordi" commander test required that she do what most Star Trek captains did not.

 

[FredH]

Not saying Harry wasn't. Also not saying Tuvok was wrong.

However, I don't think it would be too hard to dreg up instances where a Starfleet commanding officer risked the lives of many on some (logically speaking) ill-advised mission, just to save a (few) lost crewmember(s) (though I'll add, usually with the support of the senior officers). In humans, bonds of loyalty sometimes override 'logical' decisions; possibly less so in Vulcan officers. Those differences might create the kind of frictions I spoke of.

Sure, but whether said CO manages to get away with it seems to depend on who it is. I can’t recall any instance where Kirk made this play but it went wrong; but when Sulu did it to try to save Kirk and McCoy from Rura Penthe,

Spoiler

not only did it not succeed, it got at least one crewmember killed — and yet so far as we know, Sulu suffered no repercussions for this.

 

[DonIago]

I think Star Trek has shown more instances where the needs of the few outweighed the needs of the many than instances of the more logical sort. It's an irony of sorts that Troi's "kill Geordi" commander test required that she do what most Star Trek captains did not.

"Journey's End"? Insurrection?

 

[Oddish]

Exactly. The needs of 600 were put ahead of the needs of billions.

 

[DonIago]

Not by Starfleet though, but by Our Heroes acting in defiance of Starfleet (well, not so much in "Journey's End"). And I think it's debatable whether they have the moral high ground in INS, much as the film tries to paint them as the good guys for what they do.

 

[kkt]

Wait, is there really a canonical source that Vulcans don't sweat, or that their sweat doesn't have a distinct odor?