~ The Enterprise-C's sacrifice at Narendra III.
General Trek Questions and Observations
- Thread starter The Old Mixer
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Wolf 359.
Starfleet was more or less complacent, militarily, for a while before this. Even after Q forced the Borg encounter a year earlier with the Enterprise, it was still not enough to get Starfleet ready. Admiral Hanson told Picard that a lot of people still didnt take the Borg threat seriously.
Then Wolf 359 happens... and Starfleet lost easily. Starfleet now started to change their ship designs to being more powerful and with better defensive capabilities. They designed the Defiant, the first dedicated warship by Starfleet that we know of.
If Wolf 359 never happened, the Dominion War would likely have turned out even worse for the Federation... with a likely scenario of losing. Wolf 359 made Starfleet change their ship designs and tactics to be better prepared for that conflict, in addition to the second Borg attack months before the Dominion War occured.
Starfleet was more or less complacent, militarily, for a while before this. Even after Q forced the Borg encounter a year earlier with the Enterprise, it was still not enough to get Starfleet ready. Admiral Hanson told Picard that a lot of people still didnt take the Borg threat seriously.
Then Wolf 359 happens... and Starfleet lost easily. Starfleet now started to change their ship designs to being more powerful and with better defensive capabilities. They designed the Defiant, the first dedicated warship by Starfleet that we know of.
If Wolf 359 never happened, the Dominion War would likely have turned out even worse for the Federation... with a likely scenario of losing. Wolf 359 made Starfleet change their ship designs and tactics to be better prepared for that conflict, in addition to the second Borg attack months before the Dominion War occured.
Section 31's actions in infecting the Dominion leadership would have (probably) still have happened, they still would have been dying. And the only thing that would have saved the Founders was surrender. The Dominion might have grabbed more territory yes, but they still would of had no choice but to surrender.
Good points.
However, by the time the infection of the Great Link was noticeable, it was partway into season 7... almost a year and a half into the war. The war would have been lost LONG before the disease really took hold.
If Starfleet had not had the mindset of tactics and shipbuilding and ship design already in place by the time the war started, the Dominion would have likely won very early in the war. Likely before the minefield was taken down, and most certainly before the Romulans came into the fight. (Even when the Romulans came aboard, it was months before Starfleet decided it was time to go INTO Dominion territory and go on the offensive instead of staying on the defensive.)
You don't win wars by fighting defensively the entire time.
It's likely the Dominion could have won the war or at least had the Federation on the ropes before Section 31 could implement the bio-weapon.
Except the Founder disease infected them in "BROKEN LINK", since it was Odo being examined at Starfleet Medical (presumably during "HOMEFRONT"/"PARADISE LOST", since we know of no other time he was on Earth to be examined by Starfleet Medical) was how he got it to begin with. The disease took time to get to the point it did.
So the war would have been lost before the disease ran its course, and by then it would be too late... Federation worlds and territory and lives would be lost.
So the war would have been lost before the disease ran its course, and by then it would be too late... Federation worlds and territory and lives would be lost.
I think this beats out the Borg or the Dominion War. Picard had to erase an entire timeline to make sure this came about.
That last sentence is true, but Q might know.
I don't think it would be forgotten, but i'm not sure it was ever quite known just HOW important it actually was. Narendra III wouldn't be remembered in the same breath as something like Wolf 359, but it still is a fairly major event and I do believe that the Federation and Klingons both recognize it as a turning point in their relations.
Starfleet was absolutely complacent prior to Wolf 359. They had the luxury of being able to be so. They were so technologically dominant that even with several wars going on, their aging Miranda's and Excelsior's could get the job done, and their fancy exploration ships were practically battleships compared to what anyone else had. The Tzenkethi, Talarians, and Cardassians were all not particularly big issues. The Cardassians were perhaps to the worst threat of them all, and even then they're entirely a regional threat. The Federation just tends to be extremely war averse, and quite frankly the area they were fighting over just wasn't worth it.
The Klingons were allied, and I suspect some within the Federation probably thought they could use the KDF as something of a surrogate military force if need be. The Romulans were just... doing their standard Romulan thing and turtling up. I've always suspected the Romulans were nowhere near the threat they appeared to be, and realistically were probably only mildly more powerful than the Cardassians.
Not to mention, people often forget the Khitomer Accords when talking about Pre-Wolf 359 Starfleet. We tend to forget that... despite the disruptions in ST6 they happened. The major powers largely disarmed, or at least, they were supposed to. Since we're in an observations thread... I have some observations on that. This is speculation, but it's speculation based entirely on observation...
The Khitomer Accords were an arms limitation/disarmament treaty.
"Are we talking about mothballing the Starfleet?"
"I'm sure out scientific and exploration programs will remain unaffected."
The three powers handled this differently.
The Federation, for the most part, honored it as they tend to do. They shifted away from a more militaristic stance. Their newer vessels were constructed as exploration ships. They happened to be quite powerful in their own right, but they weren't really designed for war. Starfleet went a bit heavy on the "optics" of it all... they didn't have "Heavy Cruisers" anymore, they had "Exploration Cruisers". They had "Escorts". They redesigned their uniforms from military-style jackets to whatever the hell they were wearing in early TNG. Phasers no longer looked like guns, they were "tools" now. Starfleet really wanted the galaxy to know they were committed to the Khitomer Accords.
The Klingons... took a different approach. In earlier periods, we knew of the "Klingon Imperial Fleet". By TNG, it's now the "Klingon Defense Force". Beyond just a name change, I think it's important to look at how the KDF is organized. It seems that in earlier eras, the Imperial Fleet was more of true, unified naval force. By TNG, the KDF is made up of a more feudal-style force where the military assets appear to be owned directly by the Great Houses. In that... they may have somewhat skirted the line of legality with the Accords. The Klingons still have an unashamed military fleet, but... they don't. The Klingon Empire has essentially no military. The Klingon Great Houses have personal militaries, that will act in the name of the Empire when necessary or requested. The Klingons essentially privatized their military to skirt around some limitations of the Accords. The Klingon Empire had to disarm. The Accords didn't really say anything about civilian groups building fleets.
The Romulans... just... largely ignored it and turtled up in their space. There really wasn't much anyone could do about it, and the Romulans by and large weren't bothering anyone, so it seemed like both the Klingons and Federation just left well enough alone. Neither could PROVE that the Romulans were ignoring the treaty, and they probably weren't letting inspectors into their space so... that was that.
I do also think the Accords may somewhat explain why Starfleet keeps around so many older ships like the Miranda's and Excelsiors. Without speculating on the specifics, I do think the Accords would have had some sort of fleet number stipulations, especially on new construction. However, I think pre-Accords vessels could be "grandfathered" in, so the longer powers can keep their pre-Accords vessels operational, the better, because they're basically "free" ships for their fleet.
People are already forgetting Pearl Harbor, only to be read about by historians. In a couple generations, it’d be barely spoken about. The Federation would have gone through a lot of changes as the 25th and 26 centuries progressed on and into the Temporal Wars era when the E-C would just be a footnote in the vastness of the local interstellar history. Even Wolf 359 would be forgotten as well
Yes and no.
Sure, the general population is going to kind of forget about just about anything. I agree, Wolf 359 will be forgotten to people as well, although "forgotten" is a strong word. These events will just lose their emotional connection and simply be historical events. Honestly, in the real world I don't think you even need to go as far back as Pearl Harbor. Even 9/11 doesn't quite conjure up the same feelings it once did.
History will remember, but yes, people will move on.
You are too optimistic about Pearl Harbor.
Love Fahrenheit, but Bradbury didn't have to create several new languages.
He had been developing languages before he started writing stories.Languages were his thing. So it was probably hard to resist.
Me, probably the lirpa. I'm not particularly strong and not skilled in blade fighting, so maybe a short distance weapon would give me a little bit of a chance.
There wasn't, and there should not be. Commas are not used when the number is a year.I don’t remember there being a comma in the title.
I trust Major Kira's advice on a good field weapon for a beginner:
Cardassian Phase-Disruptor Rifle. "Solid and simple. You can drag it through the mud and it will still fire."
(Return to Grace)
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