"Your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough to be true?"
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Abiogenesis and life on Earth - thoughts and pet theories?
- Thread starter Asbo Zaprudder
- Start date
Arguing probability, especially in the case of life appearing in a given universe at a given time is futile. We can state that the probability of a coin toss will land heads up is 50%, but even that, in and of itself, is not a rationally complete statement. Without knowing and understanding the physical make-up of the coin, the carelessness of the toss, the landing surface and the nature of air and gravity, and more, all we can really say about the probability of a coin toss coming up heads is probably 50%, because the coin only has two sides and both sides are identical in every way that matters to our coin toss. A weighted coin, a face with more air resistance on one side or the other, a practiced hand that can flip a coin a predetermined number of times before it hits the landing surface, etc. all are factors that can change the statistical outcome. It may take thousands, millions, billions, of tosses before the slanted data reveals its unexpected pattern, but my point is, there has to be a basic physical model upon which to reasonably state anything about our universe's probability of an event occurring. Neither the single standard model, nor the many worlds model knows enough about our universe to base such statements upon.
What we can say is that we have one concrete example of a universe and that universe has life within it.
We can reasonably say, given any universe that is fundamentally the same as this one, life could occur. We can only surmise that the one data point we do have is more likely a typical (not even an average), but a typical universe with a typical outcome of life occurring. However, even that needs to be stated with conditions, understanding that we don't have more than one data point upon which we are making this statement.
Perhaps, the difference between a single stand-alone universe and one universe among many is the many other universes. What if there is an interaction between universes that has an effect upon each universe that doesn't exist for a stand-alone universe? If a multi-verse was phenomenonally interconnected, wouldn't the the whole set of universes then qualify as one universe? Perhaps it means the universe is far more vast than imagined. But, if there is an interconnecting of universes that essentially joins them all into one set of universes, that is pretty much the definition of The Universe.
Then, what is the nature of that interaction that affects each member universe that is missing from the stand-alone universe? Maybe it's the other way? Maybe there is something that a stand-alone universe may have, some force, some attribute, that is nullified by a collection of universes, sort of like charged particles. Charge can cancel out or it can multiply in the presence of other charged particles. Maybe a "creation" force (just as a wild example) exists in any one universe, but put multiple universes together in a multi-verse, and each universe's "creation" force is countered by the "creation" force of the others. While a stand-alone universe might have the possibility to create life, the multi-verse will be forever dead across all universes.
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Just a little spillage from the Nature of the Universe thread. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
I once had a dream in which I met the Goddess. In Greek mythology, she would have been Persephone or Selene. She promised to show me the secrets of the universe and she showed me to a curtain behind which was the truth of all the universe. I watched as she drew the curtain opened and, not only was there nothing behind it, but somehow, there wasn't a curtain, the Goddess disappeared in such a way as to have never existed, even I was never and no more, until I woke up. The truth is, non‐existence is forever, but it was over instantly.
-Will
What we can say is that we have one concrete example of a universe and that universe has life within it.
We can reasonably say, given any universe that is fundamentally the same as this one, life could occur. We can only surmise that the one data point we do have is more likely a typical (not even an average), but a typical universe with a typical outcome of life occurring. However, even that needs to be stated with conditions, understanding that we don't have more than one data point upon which we are making this statement.
Perhaps, the difference between a single stand-alone universe and one universe among many is the many other universes. What if there is an interaction between universes that has an effect upon each universe that doesn't exist for a stand-alone universe? If a multi-verse was phenomenonally interconnected, wouldn't the the whole set of universes then qualify as one universe? Perhaps it means the universe is far more vast than imagined. But, if there is an interconnecting of universes that essentially joins them all into one set of universes, that is pretty much the definition of The Universe.
Then, what is the nature of that interaction that affects each member universe that is missing from the stand-alone universe? Maybe it's the other way? Maybe there is something that a stand-alone universe may have, some force, some attribute, that is nullified by a collection of universes, sort of like charged particles. Charge can cancel out or it can multiply in the presence of other charged particles. Maybe a "creation" force (just as a wild example) exists in any one universe, but put multiple universes together in a multi-verse, and each universe's "creation" force is countered by the "creation" force of the others. While a stand-alone universe might have the possibility to create life, the multi-verse will be forever dead across all universes.
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Just a little spillage from the Nature of the Universe thread. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
I once had a dream in which I met the Goddess. In Greek mythology, she would have been Persephone or Selene. She promised to show me the secrets of the universe and she showed me to a curtain behind which was the truth of all the universe. I watched as she drew the curtain opened and, not only was there nothing behind it, but somehow, there wasn't a curtain, the Goddess disappeared in such a way as to have never existed, even I was never and no more, until I woke up. The truth is, non‐existence is forever, but it was over instantly.
-Will
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https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/nasas-curiosity-rover-detects-largest-organic-molecules-found-on-mars/
The AI Overview: "Decane, undecane, and dodecane are alkanes, a class of hydrocarbons consisting only of carbon and hydrogen atoms. They have straight-chain structures with 10, 11, and 12 carbon atoms respectively."
This is an interesting find, however, caution should come with this discovery as these simple protein molecules can be created by common geological activities, as well as by biological events.
The most interesting thing for me is, I read somewhere that these found chains were formed around the same time as the first signs of life started on Earth. This may be a grain of sand added to the pansperma side of the scales. On the other hand, if the first organic proteins formed when they did because the whole solar system was cooling and becoming more hospitable to life, it would also make sense that we would see a near parallel timeline for early life. Just, in Mars's case, that supportive environment may not have lasted as long as it did on Earth.
-Will
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/16/science/astronomy-exoplanets-habitable-k218b.html
Evidence from 120 lightyears away. In terms of evolutionary time, what we can see is only 120 years old. That's practically yesterday. If the life signs are real, a warm ocean with an abundance of algae producing DMS.
From Wikipedia:
"DMS is oxidized in the marine atmosphere to various sulfur-containing compounds, such as sulfur dioxide, dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO), dimethyl sulfone, methanesulfonic acid and sulfuric acid.[9] Among these compounds, sulfuric acid has the potential to create new aerosols which act as cloud condensation nuclei. It usually results in the formation of sulfate particles in the troposphere. Through this interaction with cloud formation, the massive production of atmospheric DMS over the oceans may have a significant impact on the Earth's climate.[10][11] The CLAW hypothesis suggests that in this manner DMS may play a role in planetary homeostasis.[12]"
If there was the evolution of life to the point of high-tech industrialization, what would that do to the concentrations of DMS and other atmospheric compounds from algae and other organic organisms? If this visible feature of a large planet (high gravity?) Did actually indicate life, what signs of civilization (advanced intelligence) might we expect to find?
-Will
Evidence from 120 lightyears away. In terms of evolutionary time, what we can see is only 120 years old. That's practically yesterday. If the life signs are real, a warm ocean with an abundance of algae producing DMS.
From Wikipedia:
"DMS is oxidized in the marine atmosphere to various sulfur-containing compounds, such as sulfur dioxide, dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO), dimethyl sulfone, methanesulfonic acid and sulfuric acid.[9] Among these compounds, sulfuric acid has the potential to create new aerosols which act as cloud condensation nuclei. It usually results in the formation of sulfate particles in the troposphere. Through this interaction with cloud formation, the massive production of atmospheric DMS over the oceans may have a significant impact on the Earth's climate.[10][11] The CLAW hypothesis suggests that in this manner DMS may play a role in planetary homeostasis.[12]"
If there was the evolution of life to the point of high-tech industrialization, what would that do to the concentrations of DMS and other atmospheric compounds from algae and other organic organisms? If this visible feature of a large planet (high gravity?) Did actually indicate life, what signs of civilization (advanced intelligence) might we expect to find?
-Will
Besides narrow-spectrum radio, microwave and coherent light communication, the usual signs of advanced alien civilisations are expected to be IR excess:
arxiv.org
arxiv.org
or pollution, such as lanthanide and actinide elements dumped in a star:
en.wikipedia.org
or chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) and similar compounds could be detected in planetary atmospheres:
Detectability of Chlorofluorocarbons in the Atmospheres of Habitable M-dwarf Planets
and then, of course, there are stars that exhibit anomalous transits such as Tabby's star, several of which seem to be distributed in the same area of the Galaxy:
A Data-Driven Search For Mid-Infrared Excesses Among Five Million Main-Sequence FGK Stars
Stellar infrared excesses can indicate various phenomena of interest, from protoplanetary disks to debris disks, or (more speculatively) techno-signatures along the lines of Dyson spheres. In this paper, we conduct a large search for such excesses, designed as a data-driven contextual anomaly...
arxiv.org
Project Hephaistos - II. Dyson sphere candidates from Gaia DR3, 2MASS, and WISE
The search for extraterrestrial intelligence is currently being pursued using multiple techniques and in different wavelength bands. Dyson spheres, megastructures that could be constructed by advanced civilizations to harness the radiation energy of their host stars, represent a potential...
arxiv.org
or pollution, such as lanthanide and actinide elements dumped in a star:
Przybylski's Star - Wikipedia
or chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) and similar compounds could be detected in planetary atmospheres:
Detectability of Chlorofluorocarbons in the Atmospheres of Habitable M-dwarf Planets
and then, of course, there are stars that exhibit anomalous transits such as Tabby's star, several of which seem to be distributed in the same area of the Galaxy:
A concentric ring structure for an object transiting Tabby's star?
Doesn't mean it's unnatural, although it would be gigantic.
arxiv.org
Doesn't mean it's unnatural, although it would be gigantic.
Shadow Imaging of Transiting Objects
We consider the problem of inferring the shape of a transiting object's silhouette from its light curve alone, without assuming a physical model for the object. We model the object as a grid of pixels which transits the star; each pixel has an opacity, ranging from transparent to opaque, which...
arxiv.org
The dimming of a star can be caused by all sorts of phenomenon. I understand that the periodic dimming of a star is often used to conclude the presence of an orbiting planet. If a star had a dense ring of dust orbiting it, say an asteroid belt, much like our own star, if that orbiting ring of dust were to wobble cyclically on its orbiting axis, as spinning objects often do, we distant observers would see a regular dimming that would be much longer in its dimming of the star than the passage of a planet. We might even see a pair of dimming events if the wobble were visible only at the ends of the tilt. That is, if the wobble took 100 years to reach its maximum tilt in direction A before heading back in direction B towards its minimum tilt, then we might see a dimming event in years 80 as the ring neared its maximum tilt, then again in year 120, as the ring reached its max and returned, heading again, towards the minimum tilt 80 years later. Every 160 years, we would see two dimming events 40 years apart.
-Will
-Will
Rapid precession such as you describe would not happen for a non-solid object such as a ring composed of small particles. It would settle into the equatorial plane of the star due to collisions and gravitational quadrupole tidal effects.
The saltwater would suggest your thoughts of a collision with Earth or an ejection from Earth due to a collision, is a strong possibility.
or from our planet. Will carbon dating or some other more accurate test, reveal how old the samples are? If they came from Earth, they won't be any older than Earth's earliest life. If they came from some other source, such as an outside source that could have seeded Earth's life, they may be much older than Earth itself.
Personally, I find the idea that these samples traveled any distance before reaching our solar system, highly unlikely. To have come from another star system would have taken a great deal of time at a time when there wasn't that much time for life to have had the time to develop it's building blocks elsewhere, and experience a catastrophic event that sent samples of it hurtling off into space to eventually find a cool enough Earth to build upon.
On the other hand, if enough of these building blocks dispersed into space that a single sample or more found Earth, they would likely have found many more bodies to land on. Mars and Saturn's moons included. Mimas wobbles in an unusual way, so maybe a collision with a large, life's building blocks carrying asteroid. Lapetus has a unique orbit that could indicate its origins are from outside our solar system. Maybe it is the extra-solar source of life in our system.
-Will
Speaking of old things did you see this thread I posted?
Dinosaur embryo found in China
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-59748281 How very cool?
www.trekbbs.com
https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/saturn-makes-waves-in-its-own-rings
no time now, taking off from Indonesia to Hong Kong. But more speculations will follow.
-Will
The waves are small scale and relatively rapidly damped. Saturn's rings (which are not actual rings, of course) are in its equatorial plane and the effect mentioned is not precession as you were previously describing it. Neither would Saturn be nearly large enough to produce the observed transits. Outside sci-fi movies with overimaginative CGI, all the particle ring-like systems for which we have direct optical imaging (four in our solar system) lie in the equatorial plane of their parent bodies, whatever the axial inclination of the latter. If a large enough satellite existed outside the equatorial plane, it would not disrupt the ring system as though it were composed of an actual solid ring and invoke precession. Tidal ripples would be created and that is what the link mentions, although in that case, the proposed cause is the inhomogenous nature of Saturn's core.
As an aside: solid symmetric rings or shells cannot stably orbit a body occupying their centre of mass without a station-keeping control mechanism as was soon pointed to Larry Niven after Ringworld was published. A solid ring or shell orbiting around a gravitating body as a satellite can be stable.
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One of the problems of the RNA world hypothesis that bothers me is that it seems implausible that all versions of this “RNA life “ would be gone now. Maybe we’d have to look truly deep underground and find it still in functional in the earths crust. Maybe Allan Hills meteorite had examples of RNA life and that’s why it was judged too small to be bacteria, even Martian
We also don't know of any intermediate forms between prokaryotes and eukaryotes. The only examples that have been put forward have been subsequently discovered to be eukaryotes that lost certain features such as mitochondria or other organelles. Evolution sometimes preserves throwbacks, but usually they get outcompeted and die out. A more recent hypothesis bypasses RNA world entirely and has membranes, metabolism, DNA-based genetics and protein synthesis all starting simultaneously. I remember reading about it in New Scientist, but the details were pretty sketchy and I didn't have access to the original paper. If that idea were correct, I'd expect prokaryotic life would occur anywhere in the Universe where conditions are favourable.
Could there possibly be some environmental event that could cause an acceleration of mutations, like giant CMEs
or,
Giant radioactive meteors
or,
Giant nuclear fallout from an alien nuclear power plant meltdown
-Will
or,
Giant radioactive meteors
or,
Giant nuclear fallout from an alien nuclear power plant meltdown
-Will
I'd add magnetic pole reversal. Don't want too much ionising radiation, but a little might speed things along.
So, what I'm imagining is a short epoch where genetic mutations occurred more rapidly than normal, new transitional species arose and, as the epoch ended, the returning hospitable environment produced more advanced evolutionary mutations that out-competed the waning epoch mutations. That transitional mutation was relatively short lived and it's evolutionary progeny much more successful. This would have the effect of leaving a missing link in the fossil records because the short epoch mutations weren't successful enough to leave a large footprint of their presence. It's really a wonder there aren't more gaps in the evolutionary records.
-Will
-Will
That last picture Very Stargate-ish
Every 26 seconds earth has a heartbeat 
www.discovermagazine.com
The Earth Is Pulsating Every 26 Seconds, and Seismologists Don't Agree Why
Like clockwork, seismometers across multiple continents have detected a mysterious pulse since at least the early 1960s.
www.discovermagazine.com