Why was the USS Enterprise F decommissioned so early?

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Would be pretty dull just watching dots of light shooting at each other. There are simply times where physics and entertainment clash and, if we’re talking TV, entertainment should win every single time.

Babylon 5 made it exciting & fun to watch w/o having to give up realism in combat distances.

Spoiler: Babylon 5 - Battle of Gorash VII

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We can have entertainment while being logical within the Universe we're viewing/portraying.

Thin points upholding important things.

You mean the "Thin Pylons" on the TOS Connie?

Agreed.

I'm glad we can come to an agreement on something.

Change for the sake of change.

I think it's change for the improvement of the show.
Being as logical as possible, while being within the bounds of the Fictional Universe we're portraying/viewing.

This is true.

I'm glad we concur on this specific aspect of the show.

In Star Trek? Not very.

Then it shouldn't be a problem, I've calculated that so far, there are 16x distinct form of FTL Methods of Travel portrayed on screen so far.

So...if I'm Starfleet who just lost multiple captains and crews I would never consider promoting them and distributing them across the fleet to support training of new personnel to take on a new threat.

But what would happen to the show? Do we lose Jonathon Frakes?
Is Riker forced off the "FlagShip of the Federation"?

StarFleet is quite large as a organization, there must be other First Officers you can promote?

So...not a punishment.

Sort of, he lost his "Flag-Officer" Rank.
His pay probably went back down.
His status went down.

Exactly. So rocks are not an issue.

Only in the fact that they fly in people's faces during battle scenes and can get people killed.

Since the beginning things have exploded: from the second pilot of TOS

That doesn't make it better.

 

[BillJ]

We can have entertainment while being logical within the Universe we're viewing/portraying.

Or, we can just have fun with Trek. Because that is what we’re supposed to do with it. Because it is entertainment.

Trek is what it is. A science fiction franchise that’s framework is heavily influenced by a 1960’s view of the future.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Or, we can just have fun with Trek. Because that is what we’re supposed to do with it. Because it is entertainment.

Trek is what it is. A science fiction franchise that’s framework is heavily influenced by a 1960’s view of the future.

I believe we can "Have Fun" & "Be Logical" at the same time.

It's all about how you direct things and what kind of action happens.

 

[fireproof78]

You mean the "Thin Pylons" on the TOS Connie?

Among others. Thin contact points are very common. *glares at the J*

Then it shouldn't be a problem, I've calculated that so far, there are 16x distinct form of FTL Methods of Travel portrayed on screen so far.

And that's why rocks are not a problem.

But what would happen to the show? Do we lose Jonathon Frakes?
Is Riker forced off the "FlagShip of the Federation"?

StarFleet is quite large as a organization, there must be other First Officers you can promote?

Logically, yes. Get him on to his own damn ship, and build a task force that can deal with the Borg. You literally just lost 11 ships worth officers and trained personnel. You cannot afford to concentrate that experience on one ship. You lose thousands of hours of experience not spread out to teach your personnel how to deal with that specific threat you just almost lost to.

Sort of, he lost his "Flag-Officer" Rank.
His pay probably went back down.
His status went down.

It really didn't. He was still "Jim Kirk, experienced commander" and demanded upon in the following film. It's absurd. He lost his flag rank status, one that he complains about constantly, doesn't actual use to better the Fleet, and mopes about.

Only in the fact that they fly in people's faces during battle scenes and can get people killed.

Being as logical as possible, while being within the bounds of the Fictional Universe we're portraying/viewing

That doesn't make it better.

That's the fictional universe as portrayed. People die, and consoles explode. There from the beginning.

 

[BillJ]

Among others. Thin contact points are very common. *glares at the J*

Which, to me, just points to futuristic technology and materials. The later shows really ruined that angle of TOS.

 

[fireproof78]

Which, to me, just points to futuristic technology and materials. The later shows really ruined that angle of TOS.

Yes, a common response. But, suspension of disbelief is easily ruined

 

[BillJ]

Yes, a common response. But, suspension of disbelief is easily ruined

Not for me. Which is why I’ve largely gravitated back to TOS.

Just little things where greater creativity would have went a long way in later series.

 

[fireproof78]

Not for me. Which is why I’ve largely gravitated back to TOS.

In TOS it's fine. It works for the world, just like exploding consoles. But, if we want to be "logical" then TOS requires more suspension of disbelief than other shows.

But, that's not really the case. I love TOS for that reason because it's so fun. It's not all logical and that's the best part.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Among others. Thin contact points are very common. *glares at the J*

That one is more of a optical illusion issue.
When the TrekYards guys looked at it in detail in a 3D CAD / Modeling program and compared it with properly sized StarShip Models.
It's as thick as an entire StarShip.
It's just relative size compared to the vessel, it looks thin.

And that's why rocks are not a problem.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on it.
The fact that "Captain Rachel Garret" was killed by it shows how much of a problem it was.

Logically, yes. Get him on to his own damn ship, and build a task force that can deal with the Borg.

Shelby did contribute to building a Task Force, that's why the second encounter with "The Borg" over Earth wasn't such a one-sided affair like the Battle of Wolf 359.

You literally just lost 11 ships worth officers and trained personnel. You cannot afford to concentrate that experience on one ship. You lose thousands of hours of experience not spread out to teach your personnel how to deal with that specific threat you just almost lost to.

What was there to learn from the few survivors of the Battle of Wolf 359?

It was a one-sided curb stomp where "1x Borg Assimilation Cube" pretty much wiped out the entire "Task Force".
39/40 StarFleet Ships destroyed.
11,000 StarFleet Officers Killed/Assimilated.

The only thing we learned was the StarFleet was WOEFULLY under-prepared for a new Alien Threat that had Technological Superiority and couldn't be reasoned with.

It really didn't. He was still "Jim Kirk, experienced commander" and demanded upon in the following film. It's absurd. He lost his flag rank status, one that he complains about constantly, doesn't actual use to better the Fleet, and mopes about.

I guess he misses the Captain's seat that much.
He never wanted to be promoted to a "Flag Officer".

That's the fictional universe as portrayed. People die, and consoles explode. There from the beginning.

I have no issues with people getting killed, but to be killed by the Computer Console you're using in the middle of a crisis situation is silly.

I would have other ways of killing the same officer that is more logical.

e.g. (Boarding Party starting a Fire-Fight that gets the same officers killed).

 

[BillJ]

In TOS it's fine. It works for the world, just like exploding consoles. But, if we want to be "logical" then TOS requires more suspension of disbelief than other shows.

How so? Since pretty much every other Trek show is built on the bones of TOS.

 

[fireproof78]

It's just relative size compared to the vessel, it looks thin.

And it looks bad to me. It's not logical, and violates suspension of disbelief.

See how silly that sounds over something small?

We're going to have to agree to disagree on it.

See above. My suspension riding on rocks or no rocks seems rather nitpicky.

Shelby did contribute to building a Task Force, that's why the second encounter with "The Borg" over Earth wasn't such a one-sided affair like the Battle of Wolf 359.

That's not sufficient. You need all the information gathered. Data from the various officers, and people working to train for the next encounter. That means, you take officers from the scene, debrief with them, gather data, and train up the next group.

What was there to learn from the few survivors of the Battle of Wolf 359?

It was a one-sided curb stomp where "1x Borg Assimilation Cube" pretty much wiped out the entire "Task Force".
39/40 StarFleet Ships destroyed.
11,000 StarFleet Officers Killed/Assimilated.

The only thing we learned was the StarFleet was WOEFULLY under-prepared for a new Alien Threat that had Technological Superiority and couldn't be reasoned with.

So, the answer is that you keep the people who did successfully defeat it all together and not share their knowledge, or have them training on other ships in preparation? Yes, keep all that knowledge in one place and surely nothing bad will ever happen to it.

That...makes no sense.

I guess he misses the Captain's seat that much.
He never wanted to be promoted to a "Flag Officer".

Then he shouldn't have accepted it. It's nonsense. He gripes and moans and doesn't do his damn job and gets people killed all because he has to be in command. That's not logical.

e.g. (Boarding Party starting a Fire-Fight that gets the same officers killed).

So, you'd rather watch a boarding party get resisted easily and defeated over and again, over some rocks?

Alright, well, the line is weird for various people I guess.

Still doesn't answer the question about the Enterprise E.

 

[fireproof78]

How so? Since pretty much every other Trek show is built on the bones of TOS.

I'm applying Kamen Rider's sense of logical (or my perception of it) that makes TOS untenable. Consoles explode? Yup there goes the suspension of disbelief. Bridge on the top? Stupid. Magic alien beings? Completely nonsensical.

It's proceeding to my conclusion based upon the premise postulated that STAR TREK be more "logical." Well, TOS fails at that for me.

 

[BillJ]

It's proceeding to my conclusion based upon the premise postulated that STAR TREK be more "logical." Well, TOS fails at that for me.

Oh, they all fail on that count. TOS is just more entertaining doing it.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh, they all fail on that count. TOS is just more entertaining doing it.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

And it looks bad to me. It's not logical, and violates suspension of disbelief.

But you wouldn't be the first Trek fan who complained about "Thin Warp Nacelle Pylons".

See how silly that sounds over something small?

I can see how you see it as silly, but many modern engineering designs have shown that relatively thin struts can hold things up, despite tremendous forces acting upon them.

Just look at the actual pylons connecting the engines on a modern Airliner.
Those are "Relatively Thin", yet they hold up VERY Large & Heavy engines onto the wings.

See above. My suspension riding on rocks or no rocks seems rather nitpicky.

Okay, but I'm complaining about a basic safety issue for a device that you use everyday.

How would you feel if your Tablet or your Monitor exploded in your face and nearly killed you?

You didn't nearly die or die due to enemy fire or home invaders.

But it was your personal machines that nearly got you killed.

See how silly & dangerous that would feel to the end user?

We've had massive product recalls IRL like the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 just because of Battery Fire issues.

You would think that the UFP/StarFleet would value their officers lives more and not make tech that is harmful to their own officers.

That's not sufficient. You need all the information gathered. Data from the various officers, and people working to train for the next encounter. That means, you take officers from the scene, debrief with them, gather data, and train up the next group.

Who's to say that didn't happen?
There was significant time off for the Enterprise-D after they stopped the Borg over Earth the first time around.
They could've de-briefed every officer on the Enterprise-D during that time.

So, the answer is that you keep the people who did successfully defeat it all together and not share their knowledge, or have them training on other ships in preparation? Yes, keep all that knowledge in one place and surely nothing bad will ever happen to it.

Who's to say that they didn't share the knowledge? I'm sure plenty of StarFleet upper management debriefed all the crew on what went on during the mission.
They most likely have full logs of everything that went on.

That...makes no sense.

That the upper level management AKA (Main Cast) within Star Trek stay together?
I'm sure they cycled out plenty of lower deckers through-out the show.

Then he shouldn't have accepted it. It's nonsense. He gripes and moans and doesn't do his damn job and gets people killed all because he has to be in command. That's not logical.

Well, it happened. Jim Kirk didn't realize how much he hated doing a "Desk Job" as being part of the Flag Officer.
He missed the action of being on the bridge of a StarShip.

So, you'd rather watch a boarding party get resisted easily and defeated over and again, over some rocks?

The boarding party wasn't easily resisted, you watched the same scenes as I did.
I'd rather watch scenes that make logical sense as to how people die, vs silly things killing our protagonists like rocks from explding panels.

Alright, well, the line is weird for various people I guess.

Apparently you would rather see StarFleet Officers die because their computer panels killed them over something the Antagonists does directly to them.

Still doesn't answer the question about the Enterprise E.

What about it?

 

[BillJ]

But it was your personal machines that nearly got you killed.

Life is sometimes humorous this way. How many folks have mindlessly stuck a fork in a toaster?

You would think that the UFP/StarFleet would value their officers lives more and not make tech that is harmful to their own officers.

You’re overthinking this. They just want something on screen that looks interesting.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Life is sometimes humorous this way. How many folks have mindlessly stuck a fork in a toaster?

Not many that I know of, most people aren't that stupid.

You’re overthinking this. They just want something on screen that looks interesting.

That is such a "Easily Solvable Problem" w/o violating basic logic.

 

[BillJ]

That is such a "Easily Solvable Problem" w/o violating basic logic.

Within time and on budget? These decisions are often based on what is feasible with the resources available.

 

[Nerys Myk]

You’re overthinking this. They just want something on screen that looks interesting.

Yep. These things are designed by SFX people working for a TV show not Starfleet.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Within time and on budget? These decisions are often based on what is feasible with the resources available.

I'm sure we can figure something out.