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Author Habits That Annoy You

Look at, say, the 1970s Planet of the Apes TV series (the live-action one). Superficially, it might seem like a continuation of the PotA movie series, in that it uses the same makeup designs and some of the same backstory concepts and character names. But it changes enough of the details that it's clearly its own separate reality that just borrows ideas from the movies and puts them together in its own way. There have been attempts to reconcile it and plug it into the movie timeline, but it's really its own distinct thing.

Don't get me started on all the folks on-line who seem convinced that the new APES movies are literally a prequel to the original films, just because of a few nostalgic Easter Eggs, despite the fact that the two chronologies are in no way compatible.

Because this weird modern obsession with "canon" demands that every iteration of some venerable property fit into some sort of seamless "timeline."

Which was certainly not the case with Tarzan, Zorro, Sinbad, Godzilla, Dark Shadows, etc when I was growing up.
 
Which was certainly not the case with Tarzan,
No way the "Me Tarzan" version fits in with the multilingual Lord Greystoke version.:p
I recall one of ERB's novels has Tarzan meeting an actor who plays Tarzan in the movies. Google tells me it's Tarzan and the Lion Man. In it John Clayton tries out for the role of Tarzan and is rejected because he doesn't fit the character. :lol:
 
At the very least, let things that claim to be in the same continuity line up. Those that don't make that claim can deviate from the original however they want.
That is probably the most sensible thing that anybody has said on the subject of canon.

Of course, there is always going to be what TVTropes calls "Early Installment Weirdness." It exists in the Holmes canon. It exists in ST. It exists in Oz, even if we restrict canon to Baum's own writings. It exists in ADF's Humanx Commonwealth. Hell, it even exists (with 15 bulleted citations on TVTropes!) in Mister Rogers' Neighborhood.

But if it claims to be in continuity, it should make the effort to be in continuity.
 
True. Franchises that have figured out how things are going to be should stick with what they've decided once they've done so. Change the kids' names after the pilot, but not in the middle of the fifth season, without any (good) explanation (such as "no nicknames, I'm grown up now") or anybody noticing. (Unless it's an established rule of a weird show that things change without warning, reason, or notice.)
 
True. Franchises that have figured out how things are going to be should stick with what they've decided once they've done so. Change the kids' names after the pilot, but not in the middle of the fifth season, without any (good) explanation (such as "no nicknames, I'm grown up now") or anybody noticing. (Unless it's an established rule of a weird show that things change without warning, reason, or notice.)
SORAS (Soap opera rapid aging syndrome) is a thing and not restricted to Soaps.
 
Because this weird modern obsession with "canon" demands that every iteration of some venerable property fit into some sort of seamless "timeline."

Which was certainly not the case with Tarzan, Zorro, Sinbad, Godzilla, Dark Shadows, etc when I was growing up.

I used to assume that Kenneth Johnson's Alien Nation TV series was a continuation of the feature film it was based on, because it actually included clips from the movie in its pilot. But when I did my rewatch a couple of years back, I realized it was a separate continuity from the movie, contradicting a number of its plot details and even slightly tweaking the character names. But that was nothing compared to how much the series contradicted itself as it went on. In the pilot movie, it was a big shocking secret that the alien slaves who'd been liberated when their ship crashed on Earth had been ruled on the ship by Overseers, whose existence they'd forgotten because the slaves had all been drugged into docility aboard the ship. But as the series went on, the Overseers were treated as common knowledge and there were flashbacks to the slaves and Overseers interacting openly aboard the ship. Then it was retconned that the US government had known about the Overseers from the start but couldn't prosecute them for crimes committed in space. But then the revival TV movies a few years later established that the Overseers had been tried and convicted after the crash. The movies also changed the chronology of the series and decanonized the cliffhanger finale. And one of the movies established that humans needed months of training to safely have sex with the Newcomers, though an early episode had shown Newcomer prostitutes servicing human clients.

I'm sure I've seen other TV series that altered their own continuity that much as they went, but I'm hard-pressed to think of one.




At the very least, let things that claim to be in the same continuity line up. Those that don't make that claim can deviate from the original however they want.

Easy to say, harder to achieve. Nobody knows in advance how things might change in the future, how things might turn out not to work very well and need to be changed. And even the most continuity-conscious creators can forget and overlook things despite their best efforts, especially in a large, complicated continuity. (Heck, I once accidentally changed an alien species's name between the first and second story in a series, and neither I nor my editors caught the error.)

Ultimately, it all comes down to willing suspension of disbelief. Pretending that the continuity is consistent even when it isn't is no different from pretending that the actors you recognize are really their characters. It's all about whether you choose to play along with the pretense.
 
Is it something we're ever called to do outside of fiction? How does this skill benefit us in the real world?

I suppose undercover cops or actors convincing themselves they are the people they're pretending to be enable their performance to be better (and in the cops' cases, maintain their cover and preserve their lives). Someone who is talking down a person in crisis sometimes has to act like they agree with that person to get them to put down the weapon or get down off the ledge. A parent playing make-believe with their child goes along with the child's decisions about where the story goes, silly though it may be.
 
Uh oh, a Canon Conversation. And here I had innocently checked in on Author Habits that Annoy You just to anonymously post some ungenerous things about 40 year old tie in novels.

Here's the main thing I'm curious about regarding canon: At the risk of derailing the conversation further, can anyone give me an example of a time where they were reading/watching a great ST novel/show (or other entertainment property expansive enough to potentially have canon issues) that they were enjoying as books or as shows in and of themselves but had their experience ruined by the discovery of a canon discontinuity? In my experience, if I'm absorbed in a great show (and especially a novel) that show or novel (temporarily) becomes the canon, the universe. All conflicts are sort of crowded out by good storytelling and only come back to me later, in retrospect. Said otherwise, reconciling potentially conflicting accounts never really occurs to me while I am in the middle of an otherwise engrossing experience. Have others had a different experience?
 
I guess it would depend upon how seriously you take the work as a reflection of a world grounded in reality, speculative or otherwise, as opposed to a world where anything can and does happen without the need to justify it; how significant the error is in proportion to how much the original fact was portrayed/emphasized (how many times it was said to be x, as opposed to y), how easy it is to find a work-around that explains a single offhand comment, among other factors.

Sometimes something takes you out of a story purely arbitrarily - on a different day, under different circumstances, a different mood, etc, knowing what you know about the franchise, you might have overlooked or ignored the thing which seems so glaringly obvious to you in this moment. You might decide to overlook it later, despite being aware of it. Alternately, you might now decide to be annoyed by the discrepancy you've noted and dismissed earlier.

It may be a function of how much you like or don't like something, sometimes; if you're already annoyed by something other than inconsistencies, your canon-sensors will be set to red alert. If you really love a show, you'll be enjoying it too much to notice the uncloaked ships on your tail.
 
Here's the main thing I'm curious about regarding canon: At the risk of derailing the conversation further, can anyone give me an example of a time where they were reading/watching a great ST novel/show (or other entertainment property expansive enough to potentially have canon issues) that they were enjoying as books or as shows in and of themselves but had their experience ruined by the discovery of a canon discontinuity? In my experience, if I'm absorbed in a great show (and especially a novel) that show or novel (temporarily) becomes the canon, the universe. All conflicts are sort of crowded out by good storytelling and only come back to me later, in retrospect. Said otherwise, reconciling potentially conflicting accounts never really occurs to me while I am in the middle of an otherwise engrossing experience. Have others had a different experience?

As a rule, my default mindset is "I hope this story is compatible with the rest of my personal continuity," because I like the creative exercise of fitting things together in a continuity. But if it turns out not to be compatible, I just shift gears and approach it as its own individual thing. I realized long ago that the question of consistency and the question of quality or enjoyability are two distinct considerations. Whether or not something fits the continuity is not a matter of its worth as a story, merely of which category to file it under.

I realized that because I'd been tending to mentally edit or rewrite books I liked in order to shoehorn them into continuity, but it got to the point that I had to edit them so much that I was doing an injustice to what their writers had chosen to create -- that their quality was a function of what they were as individual stories, not whether they fit with other stories. So I decided to stop trying to force them to fit and just let them be themselves, whether they fit or not. Enjoy each book on its own terms first, and only worry about continuity in those instances where there's no conflict.
 
Because this weird modern obsession with "canon" demands that every iteration of some venerable property fit into some sort of seamless "timeline."

kirk-young-minds-fresh-ideas.gif


;)
 
I've never understood the series versions of The Odd Couple or M*A*S*H to be in continuity with the movies, or the stage plays.
I never said they were. And in fact, I was making the point that they weren't. At most, they took the basic setup of the movies and then went off in their own directions.
(And note that Neil Simon has written several versions of The Odd Couple, including ethnic-specific and gender-flipped versions).
Yes. In 1985 he wrote a female version with Florence and Olive instead of Felix and Oscar. Instead of poker. the ladies got together with their friends for Trivial Pursuit. And the cuckoo Pigeon sisters became the Costazuela brothers. And in 2002, Simon wrote Oscar and Felix: A New Look at the Odd Couple, that updated the early 1960s references of the original. So now instead of a suicide telegram, Felix sent a suicide email. Stuff like that. I don't think it was terribly successful, since Nathan Lane and Matthew Broderick starred in a revival of the original version just a few years after that.
And really, M*A*S*H greatly improved as it left much of the original supporting cast behind, and evolved into an ensemble series. I found Potter, BJ, and Winchester far more interesting than Henry, Trapper John, and Frank, and of the characters who were there for the entire run, I found the fully evolved, realistic versions far more interesting than the original caricatured ones.
I personally like the original, Larry Gelbart-run years of M*A*S*H a lot better. I think it was a much better show when it was largely humorous with occasional dramatic moments, rather than the much more self-serious and dramatic show it became. The drama had more impact that way, IMO. And I find all of the replacement characters less interesting than the originals. YMMV.
 
And it’s not like the new shows are the only ones guilty of it.

Spock in TOS said the Eugenics War was the last world war in the 90s. But then TNG added a WW3 in the 21st century.

Ron Moore intentionally contradicted TNG Reunion in Redemption by saying women can’t serve on the Klingon High Council. He confirmed it was intentional as it served the story better
 
Yeah, I tend to look at things with what I tend to think of as the Xena mindset (I call it that primarily because I settled on the philosophy while watching Xena). You can play fast and loose with when and what happened in the past (whenever 'the past' is for your characters), especially if you avoid putting numbers on how long ago things were, so long as you keep an emotional consistency to the characters involved.

It's not a hard and fast rule, since some things are going to be more heavy on claims of continuity than others (to go back to Xena, you'd often see historical figures or events that end up in close proximity when they were nowhere near one another in reality), but it's effectively my baseline.

Even in acknowledging that I tend to be trivia minded enough to recognize that X, Y, and Z event don't necessarily line up right in the established timeline or something, I usually don't care. I will grant I didn't used to - I remember being like thirteen and getting in a tizzy over events on Enterprise not lining up JUST. SO. with things, but as I've gotten older... I've seen a LOT of things far more worth getting angry about, and handwaving away inconsistencies in fiction is SO much easier than losing my mind over them.
 
I've been making a habit of going back and reading some of the excellent novels from the 1990s and early 2000s. And while the shows were on, the books were bottle episodes and wildly out of sync with later show canon or the later litverse. Who cares? They're fun stories. Headcanon: This is an adventure that happened in a quantom filiment universe blah blah. Whatever.

Obviously you'd like series like the Litverse to follow some continuity between themselves, but already we've seen recent novels set in new series get contradicted by on-screen stories. So what. Was it a good story? Did I enjoy it? Great.

To go back on topic a bit... In the novels that follow a strong continuity, I do find the "catch up" parts of novels tiresome. I understand why they're there and probably editor mandated, and I've taken to speed reading over them and hoping a salient bit of plot detail for the novel I'm reading isn't buried in the middle. For franchise novels it can often be something that pads the books but kills the pace.
 
Spock in TOS said the Eugenics War was the last world war in the 90s. But then TNG added a WW3 in the 21st century.

Not added so much as moved. In 1987, it was no longer viable to predict that a group of eugenic superhumans would take over most of the world in 1992, so Roddenberry retconned the Third World War to a safer distance. Note that TNG never acknowledged the Eugenics Wars in any way; they weren't referenced again until "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" in DS9's fifth season.

Then again, not every work of fiction uses the same logic. The aforementioned Alien Nation movie was released in 1988 and set in 1991, and it set the date of the aliens' arrival on Earth three years earlier as just 12 days after the movie was released in theaters. (Although it was originally meant as a summer movie but got postponed due to reshoots. The movie that took its summer slot was a little film called Die Hard.) The TV series premiered in September '89 and put the date of the aliens' arrival around November or December '90, with the show set in '95. The revival movies started coming out in '95 and retconned the series present to '99, with the arrival reset at '92, already in the movies' past.


It's not a hard and fast rule, since some things are going to be more heavy on claims of continuity than others (to go back to Xena, you'd often see historical figures or events that end up in close proximity when they were nowhere near one another in reality), but it's effectively my baseline.

In the combined Hercules/Xena universe, everyone from Helen of Troy to Julius Caesar to Vlad the Impaler lived at the same time, a span of nearly 3000 years. And that's not even getting into the episode where a modern TV news crew followed Xena and Gabrielle around with cameras and these "Ancient Greek" characters took it in stride. I don't think Herc/Xena is the best analogy to use, since it was gleefully unconcerned with realism, basically embracing the same fast-and-loose approach to reality as the original myths it was based on. I see what you're saying, but that franchise is toward the extreme end of the spectrum.


I've been making a habit of going back and reading some of the excellent novels from the 1990s and early 2000s. And while the shows were on, the books were bottle episodes and wildly out of sync with later show canon or the later litverse. Who cares? They're fun stories. Headcanon: This is an adventure that happened in a quantom filiment universe blah blah. Whatever.

I've never needed to believe that a story was an "alternate timeline" in order to enjoy it as a story. It's just a different creative interpretation of a work of fiction, that's all. You choose to pretend it's real while you're reading or watching it, then when you're done, you just let it be a story. So it doesn't need to be connected to anything else to feel real.

Granted, since I like (but don't need) continuity, I have been open to the idea of Trek novels/comics being alternate timelines. But I find that in most cases, that doesn't actually work to explain the inconsistencies, because tie-ins' contradictions with canon are often in areas that couldn't be accounted for by alternate timelines, like entire species or planets being physically different, or the laws of physics working differently, or the chronological assumptions being different so that TOS happens 60 years earlier, or just the overall feel of the universe and characters as depicted in the story being too different. The percentage of books whose inconsistencies can be validly rationalized as timeline differences is quite low. It just doesn't work as a catchall excuse, not if you approach it remotely plausibly.


To go back on topic a bit... In the novels that follow a strong continuity, I do find the "catch up" parts of novels tiresome. I understand why they're there and probably editor mandated, and I've taken to speed reading over them and hoping a salient bit of plot detail for the novel I'm reading isn't buried in the middle. For franchise novels it can often be something that pads the books but kills the pace.

As I often say, there are better and worse ways to handle recap exposition. I always try to keep recaps concise, with no more detail than necessary for the current story, and sometimes with bits and pieces of the background information spread out over more than one scene rather than in a single big infodump. And I try to come at them from a fresh angle -- say, I relate the events of an episode from a different perspective, offering a different interpretation of it or adding new parts of the story and its context that the viewers didn't see before. Or I focus less on the facts of what happened than on the emotions of the person reflecting on it, what they think and feel and wonder about it after the fact. That way, even people familiar with the previous story can get something new and hopefully interesting from the recap.

And no, they aren't editorially mandated. No editor has ever told me I was required to recap an episode, let alone that I had to do it in a certain way. If, say, I neglected to provide sufficient backstory for a plot point to be clear to the reader, the editor would alert me to the issue, but it would be up to me to decide how to fix it.
 
In the combined Hercules/Xena universe, everyone from Helen of Troy to Julius Caesar to Vlad the Impaler lived at the same time, a span of nearly 3000 years. And that's not even getting into the episode where a modern TV news crew followed Xena and Gabrielle around with cameras and these "Ancient Greek" characters took it in stride. I don't think Herc/Xena is the best analogy to use, since it was gleefully unconcerned with realism, basically embracing the same fast-and-loose approach to reality as the original myths it was based on. I see what you're saying, but that franchise is toward the extreme end of the spectrum.
As was Jack of All Trades, the Bruce Campbell series from the same producers. It took place in 1801, but it positively reveled in historical inaccuracies, to the point of having historical figures appear on the show decades after they'd died in real life. As long as the comedy worked, Sam Raimi and Rob Tapert obviously didn't care about the facts.
 
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