Spirits, ghosts, and that kind of stuff

[CorporalCaptain]

This is what I love about the premise of Ghostbusters. Ghosts exist in that universe, but the protagonists are scientists who study them and develop technology to detect and contain them. There's no claim of an intrinsic separation between the natural and supernatural; it's all one reality that science can learn to understand and address. [...]

Also, of course, what you believe about reality should have nothing to do with what you consider acceptable in a work of fiction. I don't believe the paranormal exists in reality, but it exists in the Ghostbusters universe, and that franchise gets it right that science is a process that can expand to encompass its existence, rather than a rigid dogma that can't learn new things.

All of this.

 

[Christopher]

I have the opposite problem—it feels like more often than not, most television series (that I’ve seen) tend to present the supernatural as either possibly real or actually real, even when they are (nominally) non-fantasy shows. As someone who doesn’t believe in such, I personally find this pietistic at best and dishonest at worst, though I recognize that others have different views.

What annoys me is the commonplace trope where the heroes spend the whole episode exposing the apparently supernatural or alien phenomenon as a hoax, but then at the end there's a little tease suggesting that maybe it's real after all. MacGyver (the original) did this repeatedly. Bigfoot was a hoax -- or was he? UFOs were a hoax -- or are they? I hate the wishy-washiness of it -- if you want to debunk pseudoscience, or if you want to treat it as real within your story, then commit to it! Take a clear stand and stick with it, instead of trying to have it both ways so as not to offend anyone.

 

[FredH]

What annoys me is the commonplace trope where the heroes spend the whole episode exposing the apparently supernatural or alien phenomenon as a hoax, but then at the end there's a little tease suggesting that maybe it's real after all. MacGyver (the original) did this repeatedly. Bigfoot was a hoax -- or was he? UFOs were a hoax -- or are they? I hate the wishy-washiness of it -- if you want to debunk pseudoscience, or if you want to treat it as real within your story, then commit to it! Take a clear stand and stick with it, instead of trying to have it both ways so as not to offend anyone.

Sure, for the most part. (This was the constant formula on Project Blue Book, back in the day.). Once in a long while it can be funny, but once it became a trope already, that was way too much.

 

[FredH]

NuBSG also did this. Although the ending was controversial, I think it was well established, both in story and because the original BSG was a religious story, that there was always the possibility of a religious element to the story.

From various hints, I always assumed that the “God” (which hates to be called that) in nuBSG was a primordial post-Cylon evolved superentity, incomprehensible to us for now but ultimately explainable (if unexplained), rather than a literal supernatural God. (With the returned you-know-who being reconstructed as an agent after the destructive scanning of the original.). But of course that’s an interpretation.

 

[Christopher]

Sure, for the most part. (This was the constant formula on Project Blue Book, back in the day.).

Do you mean Jack Webb's Project UFO, which was a dramatization of Project Blue Book investigations? As I recall, they typically covered 2-3 cases per episode, and the standard formula was that at least one was debunked as a hoax while one was left ambiguous. But that's not quite the same as the kind of formula I'm talking about, where the episode is about one specific thing that's proven to be a hoax, but then there's just this brief moment before the final freeze-frame that either hints or confirms that it was real all along. (Like the episode of The Greatest American Hero where Ralph tries to prove a plesiosaur cryptid is responsible for the Bermuda Triangle disappearances, and it turns out to be pirates hijacking boats, but in the end, the heroes sail away and don't see the cheesy rubber monster head rising up and mugging into the camera.)

 

[FredH]

Do you mean Jack Webb's Project UFO, which was a dramatization of Project Blue Book investigations? As I recall, they typically covered 2-3 cases per episode, and the standard formula was that at least one was debunked as a hoax while one was left ambiguous. But that's not quite the same as the kind of formula I'm talking about, where the episode is about one specific thing that's proven to be a hoax, but then there's just this brief moment before the final freeze-frame that either hints or confirms that it was real all along. (Like the episode of The Greatest American Hero where Ralph tries to prove a plesiosaur cryptid is responsible for the Bermuda Triangle disappearances, and it turns out to be pirates hijacking boats, but in the end, the heroes sail away and don't see the cheesy rubber monster head rising up and mugging into the camera.)

Yeah, sorry, that’s the title — haven’t watched it in forty-something years, after all. Though my possibly-distorted memory is that just about every episode ended with a shot of the actual UFO showing up just before the credits, after the investigators had already left — ie the same thing you describe the GAH episode as doing.

 

[Christopher]

Though my possibly-distorted memory is that just about every episode ended with a shot of the actual UFO showing up just before the credits, after the investigators had already left — ie the same thing you describe the GAH episode as doing.

They used VFX to simulate all the described encounters, including the ones that turned out to be hoaxes. And as I said, the difference was that they covered 2-3 cases per episode, so having one of them debunked and another ambiguous/plausible was a different format than being wishy-washy about a single claim.

Also, the ambiguity was built into the premise -- it was a show about UFO investigators, after all, so it had to stay an open question to justify the investigations continuing. A show like MacGyver, by contrast, should've had the freedom to come out and take a decisive stand that something was a hoax, without being cagey about it. It particularly annoyed me when MacGyver did that, because it was normally a show that celebrated science and rationality.

 

[FredH]

A show like MacGyver, by contrast, should've had the freedom to come out and take a decisive stand that something was a hoax, without being cagey about it. It particularly annoyed me when MacGyver did that, because it was normally a show that celebrated science and rationality.

It’s still funny to me that one of the few well-known American shows to take a consistent stand about the supernatural being fake is a cartoon with a talking dog.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

Clive Revill passed away yesterday. He was in the adaptation of Richard Matheson's 'Hell House'. Much like 'Ghostbusters', Richard Matheson tried to offer a scientific explanation for the hauntings/paranormal events in Hell House, with Clive Revill's character leading the team tasked with discovering the proof of an afterlife.

 

[Set Harth]

Clive Revill passed away yesterday. He was in the adaptation of Richard Matheson's 'Hell House'. Much like 'Ghostbusters', Richard Matheson tried to offer a scientific explanation for the hauntings/paranormal events in Hell House, with Clive Revill's character leading the team tasked with discovering the proof of an afterlife.

Supposedly he actually died over two weeks ago on March 11.

 

[Awesome Possum]

NuBSG also did this. Although the ending was controversial, I think it was well established, both in story and because the original BSG was a religious story, that there was always the possibility of a religious element to the story.

It's one of the things I loved about it, its never fully explained and you might not be able to explain it.

I was always kicking around a story that would try to explore it more and use some imagery from the original series but ultimately be left a mystery that humans and cylons were incapable of comprehending. To the point that it would verge on cosmic horror.

 

[FredH]

All of this.

Though regarding Ghostbusters, seems to me that if science can examine, explain and manipulate the “supernatural” in that universe, then by definition it isn’t actually supernatural in that universe — just scientifically explainable phenomena that previously hadn’t been understood. (I see it this way in the real world, too: I don’t believe in ghosts, but if it turns out they exist, then they are lifeforms, or a previously unknown stage of the life cycle.)

 

[FredH]

Supposedly he actually died over two weeks ago on March 11.

Very sorry to hear it; RIP.

 

[Christopher]

Though regarding Ghostbusters, seems to me that if science can examine, explain and manipulate the “supernatural” in that universe, then by definition it isn’t actually supernatural in that universe — just scientifically explainable phenomena that previously hadn’t been understood. (I see it this way in the real world, too: I don’t believe in ghosts, but if it turns out they exist, then they are lifeforms, or a previously unknown stage of the life cycle.)

Yes, exactly. That's why I dislike the word "supernatural." Anything that exists is part of nature.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Though regarding Ghostbusters, seems to me that if science can examine, explain and manipulate the “supernatural” in that universe, then by definition it isn’t actually supernatural in that universe — just scientifically explainable phenomena that previously hadn’t been understood. (I see it this way in the real world, too: I don’t believe in ghosts, but if it turns out they exist, then they are lifeforms, or a previously unknown stage of the life cycle.)

Exactly!

Yes, exactly. That's why I dislike the word "supernatural." Anything that exists is part of nature.

This, too.

 

[FredH]

Yes, exactly. That's why I dislike the word "supernatural." Anything that exists is part of nature.

100%.

 

[MarcKle1964]

Weird moans are ghosts farking

Dr Crusher knows that sound...

(my favorite bad episode of TNG)

 

[JD]

Sure, for the most part. (This was the constant formula on Project Blue Book, back in the day.). Once in a long while it can be funny, but once it became a trope already, that was way too much.

Do you mean Jack Webb's Project UFO, which was a dramatization of Project Blue Book investigations? As I recall, they typically covered 2-3 cases per episode, and the standard formula was that at least one was debunked as a hoax while one was left ambiguous. But that's not quite the same as the kind of formula I'm talking about, where the episode is about one specific thing that's proven to be a hoax, but then there's just this brief moment before the final freeze-frame that either hints or confirms that it was real all along. (Like the episode of The Greatest American Hero where Ralph tries to prove a plesiosaur cryptid is responsible for the Bermuda Triangle disappearances, and it turns out to be pirates hijacking boats, but in the end, the heroes sail away and don't see the cheesy rubber monster head rising up and mugging into the camera.)

There also was a show called Project Blue Book that ran on History from 2019 to 2020.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Blue_Book_(TV_series)

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

What annoys me is the commonplace trope where the heroes spend the whole episode exposing the apparently supernatural or alien phenomenon as a hoax, but then at the end there's a little tease suggesting that maybe it's real after all. MacGyver (the original) did this repeatedly. Bigfoot was a hoax -- or was he? UFOs were a hoax -- or are they? I hate the wishy-washiness of it -- if you want to debunk pseudoscience, or if you want to treat it as real within your story, then commit to it! Take a clear stand and stick with it, instead of trying to have it both ways so as not to offend anyone.

Having watched all of that during the 80s / 90s on reruns I have to say totally agree with you. BTW I really appreciated your comments about Ghostbusters earlier. Really well said.

Sure, for the most part. (This was the constant formula on Project Blue Book, back in the day.). Once in a long while it can be funny, but once it became a trope already, that was way too much.

OMG I remember that show, and that bit pissed me off so much but I kept watching

 

[FredH]

OMG I remember that show, and that bit pissed me off so much but I kept watching

Heh. Though apparently I was misremembering slightly, per Christopher above (haven’t seen it since it aired).