Spoilers STAR TREK: SECTION 31 - Grading & Discussion

[I am not Spock]

experimentation in a series which is nearly 60 years old is good. Showing perspectives outside Starfleet and the Federation is a good idea.

This particular experiment just didn't work. This means they will probably stop experimenting now, and go back to doing memberberries and fan service from now on.

I want experimentation, it just needs to be better executed

 

[cooleddie74]

And this experimentation was just a complete tire fire. There's trying something different, and then there's whatever this film was.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I await the review by Leonard Pinth Garnell.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

Kurtzman’s willingness to expand and differentiate these Trek projects is admirable. And he has shown good judgement in picking the right people for specific projects. Mike MacMahan for Lower Decks. The Hageman brothers for Prodigy. Henry Alonso Myers for Strange New Worlds. And of course there’s a segment of fans of Picard S3 that will never admit that Terry Matalas would not have gotten the job if Kurtzman didn’t hire him.

In this instance he did not show that good judgement for those hiring those for the Section 31 movie. As much as Olatunde Osunsanmi and Craig Sweeny have proven to be talent for other projects, they were clearly wrong for this kind of film.

 

[James Cole]

I'm about 5-7 pages behind, but just saw that S31 is holding a 1.9 on Letterboxd. NEM holds a 2.7, TFF a 2.6, and INS a 2.8.

 

[Quantum21]

A few days later...

Looking at this grading and some others online, it's almost right down the middle, in fact it's picked up some ground here.

The idea this is a STV or Generations style disaster doesn't hold much water, and is just so much hyped up silliness.

So we can agree reactions are "mixed" but a lot of people also enjoyed it.

Furthermore reports are it's doing well on Paramount +, so there's a lot of hysterics over nothing.

Isn't that the definition of Trekkies?

 

[Citiprime]

A few days later...

Looking at this grading and some others online, it's almost right down the middle, in fact it's picked up some ground here.

 

[Cr0sis21]

A few days later...

Looking at this grading and some others online, it's almost right down the middle, in fact it's picked up some ground here.

The idea this is a STV or Generations style disaster doesn't hold much water, and is just so much hyped up silliness.

So we can agree reactions are "mixed" but a lot of people also enjoyed it.

Furthermore reports are it's doing well on Paramount +, so there's a lot of hysterics over nothing.

Isn't that the definition of Trekkies?

No, it was pretty awful with few redeeming traits.
Some thoughts:
There's plenty negative to say about Berman, but Berman really believe in following Roddenberry's utopian vision.
Kurtzman, by contrast, flat-out says "Star Trek's utopia can't exist without something like Section 31 doing the dirty work."
No. No no no no no.
Fuck. No.
The whole point of S31 is that they were antithetical to everything Star Trek. They are villains. Nowhere was this more obvious than in the DS9 finale, where the Dominion War is ended not because S31 wiped out the Founders, but because Odo offered them the cure.
Kurtzman does not understand Star Trek. At all. Not if he can't grasp that most basic concept of it.

I'm so fucking tired of galaxy-destroying threats. Remember when it was enough to just threaten Earth?

I was glad the stupid mech guy was killed off. Not only was he completely out of place in Trek, he was out of place in a fucking spy group.
The microbe person made more sense, and was an interesting concept, but the execution was dog shit.

Why are we portraying S31 as Mission: Impossible? Are we pretending actual SF Intelligence doesn't exist?
Georgiou's last appearance was great character stuff, and they mostly erased development so we can get "badass Space Hitler" back. Except we shouldn't be rooting for Space Hitler or Space SS (Section 31). An organization that Threatens to wipe someone's mind isn't the one you should root for.

The idea of putting Fuzz into a Vulcan body is stupid. A clandestine black ops organization is going to draw attention to itself with a laughing Vulcan?!?
Not to mention that I hate the overly complex FX for the Chameloid. It was done a LOT better in TUC.

I hated that they were trying to give the Deltan some weird sex-power thing. It actually made me glad they killed her off so quick, before that "idea" could be explored further.

The phase-cloak thing annoyed me. Totally undercuts and contradicts two well- liked TNG episodes. Normally I'm not quite so pedantic about that, but they did it for, what, a forgettable fight scene? Ugh.

Finally, why bother putting it in the Lost Era, if you don’t make use of it? Nothing identifies this movie as taking place in that era, besides the token and underused Rachel Garrett.
One of the most important things I was taught in my creative writing classes was, have a reason for where and when your story takes place. My book, for instance, took place in West Virginia in 1997, and my professors grilled me about why it was there, and then, as opposed to contemporary to where and when I live.
I have a feeling if those same questions were asked of these writers, they wouldn't have a good answer.

 

[Quantum21]

No one pays attention to fan reviews on Rotten Tomatoes. There other other places it's rated as well.

 

[Quantum21]

No, it was pretty awful with few redeeming traits.
Some thoughts:
There's plenty negative to say about Berman, but Berman really believe in following Roddenberry's utopian vision.
Kurtzman, by contrast, flat-out says "Star Trek's utopia can't exist without something like Section 31 doing the dirty work."
No. No no no no no.
Fuck. No.
The whole point of S31 is that they were antithetical to everything Star Trek. They are villains. Nowhere was this more obvious than in the DS9 finale, where the Dominion War is ended not because S31 wiped out the Founders, but because Odo offered them the cure.
Kurtzman does not understand Star Trek. At all. Not if he can't grasp that most basic concept of it.

I'm so fucking tired of galaxy-destroying threats. Remember when it was enough to just threaten Earth?

I was glad the stupid mech guy was killed off. Not only was he completely out of place in Trek, he was out of place in a fucking spy group.
The microbe person made more sense, and was an interesting concept, but the execution was dog shit.

Why are we portraying S31 as Mission: Impossible? Are we pretending actual SF Intelligence doesn't exist?
Georgiou's last appearance was great character stuff, and they mostly erased development so we can get "badass Space Hitler" back. Except we shouldn't be rooting for Space Hitler or Space SS (Section 31). I don't know where they're headed, but an organization that Threatens to wipe someone's mind isn't the one you should root for.

The idea of putting Fuzz into a Vulcan body is stupid. A clandestine black ops organization is going to draw attention to itself with a laughing Vulcan?!?
Not to mention that I hate the overly complex FX for the Chameloid. It was done a LOT better in TUC.

I hated that they were trying to give the Deltan some weird sex-power thing. It actually made me glad they killed her off so quick, before that "idea" could be explored further.

The phase-cloak thing annoyed me. Totally undercuts and contradicts two well- liked TNG episodes. Normally I'm not quite so pedantic about that, but they did it for, what, a forgettable fight scene? Ugh.

Finally, why bother putting it in the Lost Era, if you don’t make use of it? Nothing identifies this movie as taking place in that era, besides the token and underused Rachel Garrett.
One of the most important things I was taught in my creative writing classes was, have a reason for where and when your story takes place. My book, for instance, took place in West Virginia in 1997, and my professors grilled me about why it was there, and then, as opposed to contemporary to where and when I live.
I have a feeling if those same questions were asked of these writers, they wouldn't have a good answer.

Actually, the idea that the Federation can't exist without Sec31 is stated in DS9. The machinations involving Starfleet allying with Sec31 during this series and Picard, bears this out as accurate. Writing...

So you declare it so?

 

[HotRod]

Kurtzman, by contrast, flat-out says "Star Trek's utopia can't exist without something like Section 31 doing the dirty work."

I was unaware of Kurtzman being in charge of the franchise back in 1998.

 

[Michael]

Looking at this grading […] it's almost right down the middle, in fact it's picked up some ground here.

Huh? Are we looking at the same poll? As others have pointed out, this is apparently the worst rated Trek production ever in the history of this board. Doesn’t mean you can’t like it, but let’s not pretend the poll is showing something different.

I hated that they were trying to give the Deltan some weird sex-power thing

This confuses me. Isn’t that the exact same concept they had for Ilia in The Motion Picture?

Totally undercuts and contradicts two well- liked TNG episodes.

Which ones? And how?

 

[Cr0sis21]

Actually, the idea that the Federation can't exist without Sec31 is stated in DS9. The machinations involving Starfleet allying with Sec31 during this series and Picard, bears this out as accurate. Writing...

So you declare it so?

That's quite the mental gymnastics you're performing there.
The point of S31 was for them to be villains. You are not supposed to root for them. You're supposed to root them out.
If you actually watch DS9, it's consistently shown they do more harm than good.
And if you still think that's not the case, Ira Behr himself is vehemently opposed to how Section 31 is being used, for exactly that reason.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Huh? Are we looking at the same poll? As others have pointed out, this is apparently the worst rated Trek production ever in the history of this board. Doesn’t mean you can’t like it, but let’s not pretend the poll is showing something different.


This confuses me. Isn’t that the exact same concept they had for Ilia in The Motion Picture?


Which ones? And how?

The concept for Ilia, as stated by Roddenberry and insinuated with lines like "My oath of celibacy is on record", is that actual sex with Deltans can be and often is overwhelming to non-Deltans.

And the episodes I'm referring to are "The Next Phase" and "The Pegasus", both of which posit that phase tech is new, experimental, dangerous,and not widely known. Yet here it is being used by multiple people for combat 100 years prior?

 

[Michael]

The concept for Ilia, as stated by Roddenberry and insinuated with lines like "My oath of celibacy is on record", is that actual sex with Deltans can be and often is overwhelming to non-Deltans.

That’s not how I remember it. Deltans are made to swear that oath because of their strong sexual attraction. Apparently Roddenberry’s novelization explains it with their pheromones and and sub-conscious telepathy (as per Memory Alpha). So all of that would seem to be entirely consistent with the way Melle is portrayed in Section 31.

And the episodes I'm referring to are "The Next Phase" and "The Pegasus", both of which posit that phase tech is new, experimental, dangerous,and not widely known. Yet here it is being used by multiple people for combat 100 years prior?

Okay. But both those instances from The Next Generation concern technology that also cloaks a person or ship, not merely brings them out of phase so that they can walk through walls. The technologies would seem related, but certainly not the same. And thus I can’t really see how that aspect from the movie would in any way undermine those episodes.

 

[Citiprime]

Kurtzman, by contrast, flat-out says "Star Trek's utopia can't exist without something like Section 31 doing the dirty work."

Like a lot of things with the Paramount+ era, the depiction is contradictory and muddled.

In interviews for “Section 31,” Kurtzman has put forward that view as being part of the them for this movie. That Section 31 performs the necessary evils for the Federation.

BUT… There’s enough to indicate they put the Federation and galaxy in harm’s way as much as they help it. For example, DSC season 2 shows them almost starting the machine apocalypse through Control.

I was unaware of Kurtzman being in charge of the franchise back in 1998.

This version of Section 31 has nothing in common with DS9’s, which is a villainous organization, and this movie doesn’t even want to muddle the picture on the actions of the group or give the audience pause about the “heroes” of the piece. They want everyone to end up giggling in a bar.

Beyond that, even DS9 doesn’t really accept the idea that Section 31 is necessary. Bashir is disgusted by Ross’s complicity with Sloan, and the betrayal of the Federation’s values. But at least DS9 made that argument interesting and difficult, and not a moment to cut to characters making quips.

If it had been up to Sloan and Section 31, every single Changeling and Odo would have died. There would have been no one to turn off the Dominion War and every single Cardassian on Cardassia Prime would have probably been slaughtered by the Jem’Hadar.

The peace we get at the end comes directly from the characters going against Section 31, getting the cure for Odo, and having faith and trust in moving beyond war and death. They’re willing to take a chance on Odo and peace, rather than Section 31’s “kill ‘em all” plan.

 

[Cr0sis21]

That’s not how I remember it. Deltans are made to swear that oath because of their strong sexual attraction. Apparently Roddenberry’s novelization explains it with their pheromones and and sub-conscious telepathy (as per Memory Alpha). So all of that would seem to be entirely consistent with the way Melle is portrayed in Section 31.


Okay. But both those instances from The Next Generation concern technology that also cloaks a person or ship, not merely brings them out of phase so that they can walk through walls. The technologies would seem related, but certainly not the same. And thus I can’t really see how that aspect from the movie would in any way undermine those episodes.

The phasing is supposed to be the hard part, though. The reason I say it undermines them is because A) It makes the crews dealing with it woefully inept, and B) It takes the tension away because it's not really new technology.
And like I said, I'm not usually so pedantic about it, but all of it was in service of an (at best) middling fight scene that it added very little to. And was never mentioned or used again.

 

[Michael]

The phasing is supposed to be the hard part, though. The reason I say it undermines them is because A) It makes the crews dealing with it woefully inept, and B) It takes the tension away because it's not really new technology.
And like I said, I'm not usually so pedantic about it, but all of it was in service of an (at best) middling fight scene that it added very little to. And was never mentioned or used again.

I might even agree with you if they’d depicted it differently, but it seemed like it was some experimental black market technology that’s prone to malfunction (which indeed it does in the movie, when Georgiou gets stuck in the wall). Plus it seems to have the limitation of only working on people, not larger ships. Taking all of that into account what we see much later (timeline-wise) in The Next Generation still feels like a new technology.

 

[HotRod]

That's quite the mental gymnastics you're performing there.
The point of S31 was for them to be villains. You are not supposed to root for them. You're supposed to root them out.
If you actually watch DS9, it's consistently shown they do more harm than good.
And if you still think that's not the case, Ira Behr himself is vehemently opposed to how Section 31 is being used, for exactly that reason.

Yeah, but none of this contradicts tbe fact it was a DS9 creation that pretty much beat you over the head with the notion that Section 31 has always been there, working in the shadows, protecting Federation interest.

The concept for Ilia, as stated by Roddenberry and insinuated with lines like "My oath of celibacy is on record", is that actual sex with Deltans can be and often is overwhelming to non-Deltans.

Still not canonical. They were pretty much free to do anything as long as it involved sex.

Yet here it is being used by multiple people for combat 100 years prior?

46 years.

 

[Trekker4747]

Finally, why bother putting it in The Lost Era, if you don’t make use of it?

Alex Kurtzman grins up proudly at the Lost Era like Kirk on a mountain side, "Because it's there!"