What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?
- Thread starter Amasov
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I've had the same thought myself, but combined with unreliable early warp engines that had a tendency to accidentally create time warps, depositing 22nd Century colonists hundreds or even thousands of years into the past. The colonists would land, settle and develop over the many centuries, eventually shrugging off their origins and becoming well established "alien" cultures (albeit human looking) by the time of TOS.
Idea that DS9 was a B5 rip does seem to have some merit on the birth of the Federation ahem Interstellar Alliance. Too many coincidences. Once could be a fluke, twice could be coincidence, three+ is a trend...
Both on stations instead of ships on periphery of Human explored space led by a Commander.
Babylon = Babel
Mesudan = Vorlon
Kosh = Kollos
Earth Alliance = United Earth
Valen = Surak
Minbari Religious = Vulcan
Minbari Warrior = Romulan
That it kept going even after launch to the inclusion of a smaller ship crewed by the station personnel
White Star -> Defiant
Shadow War -> Dominion War
Interstellar Alliance -> United Federation of Planets
One or two, maybe.... but the ranks, etc?
I could buy it was pitched as a birth of the Federation prequel and it was subconsciously carried forward on a similar 'spacey thing.' But then it kept adding up is either a wink-wink homage or deliberate nose tweaking depending how cynical one wants to be, but way too many to be coincidental past a certain point.
fuller list:
- Both set on a space station.
- Both stations name+number
- Both stations are located next to a wormhole-like structure: Prophet Wormhole vs Jumpgate
- Both stations get significant weapons/defense upgrades leading up to the start of a major conflict.
- Both space stations integrate human and alien technology
- Both CO start as commanders, not captains
- Both series CO promoted or replaced by a captain
- Both shows CO have major plot points around their fathers
- Both CO becomes religious figure for alien race
- Both CO disappear at the end of series.
- Both series after aliens penetrate human defenses to Earth (Earth-Minbari War, Borg attack)
- Both show CO are veterans of that action
- Both CO like baseball
- Both CO have a freighter captain girlfriend [before Sheridan replaced Sinclair]
- Both CO conceive a child by end of series
- Both CO have dead Ex drama (Sisko's wife killed by Borg -> Sheridan's wife taken by Shadows)
- Both Space Stations become strategically important during major war (Dominion/Shadow)
- Both have female XO (Kira/Ivanova)
- Both female XO have dead fathers as a plot point as background development/plot point
- Both have idealistic young doctor (Bashir/Franklin)
- Both have a hard-nosed security chief (Odo/Garibaldi)
- Both with love arc: Unrequited to fulfilled: Odo, Kira -> Garibaldi to Ex
- Major alien race in plot of main characters/arcs is religious (Bajoran vs Minbari)
- Minbari religious are friendly to protagonists. [Vulcans are obviously friendly. Bajorans quickly are]
- Minbari warriors are antagonist from the beginning [Romulans do become allies against Dominion]
- Bajoran Orbs -> Minbari Triluminary
- Bajor occupation by Cardassia -> Narn occupation by Centauri
- Both Bajor and Narn see their former occupier return in series as part of plot arc by Bad Guys.
- Villain revanchist alien main character/species: Dukhat/Cardassian -> Londo/Centauri
- Dominion -> Shadows both use revanchist alien as pawns
- Both villains arc lead to the ruin of their species and homeworld.
- Both use engineered servant warrior minions (Jem'Hadar vs the biomechanical one showed in B5 season 1 that was dropped but later replaced by Drakh)
- Defiant -> White Star. Both small ships boasting advanced technology punching above their size
- Layton -> Hague. Both mentors/superiors of CO. Played by the same actor!
- Layton Coup -> Hague rebellion.
- Bajoran Circle -> Night Watch
- Cardassian coup to join Dominion -> Night Watch join Earth to Shadows
- Both shows deal with terrorism early on. DS9 had the Circle and the Maquis; B5 had Home Guard and Free Mars.
- Both stations have a terrorist attack/attempted attack in early seasons
- Coincdental names? Shakar -> G’Kar, Leeta -> Lyta Alexander, Kai -> Satai, Dukat -> Dukhat,
- Prophets -> Vorlons. Both energy beings and both can take the form and/or inhabit bodies of cast
- Both desire or attempted to engineer worship -> Prophets by Bajor and mentor relationship of Vorlon with Minbari (revealed as tool against Shadows) as well as apppearing angelic out of encounter suits
- Section 31 -> Psi Corps
- Order vs Chaos: Founders/Vorlons
- Both shows end their war by having their main antagonist convinced to leave/surrender instead of final military defeat
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The Motion Picture should be recognized for a really important moment in Spock's story arc, his halting the Kolinahr ritual to help the Enterprise face V'ger. While it was V'ger's intelligence that called to him, the subtext is that his human side needed him to go back to be among humans and explore his less logical side. And he needed to see his old friends.
The hooping cough is strong.
I think there was a new scene in the Editor's Cut version that showed Spock crying, confirming this.
Though I believe that Spock only completed this cycle after sharing his katra with McCoy (aka. the emotional side of the trio). In the last movies he's quite more laid-back and overall "human".
Spock crying on the bio-bed and Kirk asking, "Not for us?" I remember seeing that in the original theatrical release back in '79. Was there another scene of that on Vulcan?
You're mixing your scenes. The bio bed is when Spock explains to Kirk that Spock should have known and that Vejur is a machine, a machine that is barren and cold with no meaning.
There was a scene on the bridge that was cut (possibly because Wise thought, as you seem to, that they were too similar). Kirk asks Spock a question and Spock turns around with tears on his face.
Kirk: Not for us?
Spock: No Captain. Not for us. For Vejur. I weep for Vejur as I would for a brother.
When fans saw this scene on the ABC television broadcast they flipped out. Why was this not in the movie?!?
Nimoy had a similar reaction when he saw that it had gotten the chop at the premier. His opinion of the film softened somewhat when the Director's Edition re-included it. Forget the Spock walk. THIS was his BIG scene!
AH - You're absolutely right! I remember that now.
Strange - Now that you say it, I remember seeing that scene in the theaters too but as I have conclusively proven beyond the shadow of any doubt, memory recall is an imperfect process - especially mine.
Strange - Now that you say it, I remember seeing that scene in the theaters too but as I have conclusively proven beyond the shadow of any doubt, memory recall is an imperfect process - especially mine.
@Uxi So are you saying B5 was ripping off DS9 and Trek in general?
Only addressing a few of these; the numbering and order will differ from your list because I'm grouping them:
JMS previously pitched B5 to Paramount; they rejected it, but he's accused them of ripping off elements of his B5 pitch when making DS9. While the shows have a lot in common, the development processes for both are pretty well-documented, and at least in general I doubt either was ripping off the other, and I'm not really sure what either show would gain by doing so.
The shows definitely have things in common, and I think JMS would be lying if he said Trek in general wasn't a big influence, but I think most of the things you're observing are coincidences. As far as DS9 and B5, I suspect most of the writers were probably too focused on their own show to even bother watching the other, much less crib ideas from it.
Only addressing a few of these; the numbering and order will differ from your list because I'm grouping them:
Bear in mind Babylon 5's premiere telefilm aired just a month after DS9; both had been in development for years. These and other elements were well in place too early for any to likely influence the other, including B5's original female XO Takashima.
JMS previously pitched B5 to Paramount; they rejected it, but he's accused them of ripping off elements of his B5 pitch when making DS9. While the shows have a lot in common, the development processes for both are pretty well-documented, and at least in general I doubt either was ripping off the other, and I'm not really sure what either show would gain by doing so.
These are a handful of examples of things B5 did first by a year or more.
Funny thing is I've seen B5 fans (and I think even JMS?) point to the Defiant as a rip-off of the White Star despite the Defiant appearing a full year before the White Star. I'm reasonably confident both shows just reached a point where they needed a ship with some teeth to tell the stories they wanted to tell.
The shows definitely have things in common, and I think JMS would be lying if he said Trek in general wasn't a big influence, but I think most of the things you're observing are coincidences. As far as DS9 and B5, I suspect most of the writers were probably too focused on their own show to even bother watching the other, much less crib ideas from it.
This.
I'm currently re-watching DS9 and watching B5 for the first time side-by-side. I didn't read the list you have because I'm trying to avoid spoilers, but I'll respond after I finish B5. I just finished Season 2 of DS9 and am more than half-way through Season 1 of B5.
At the pace I'm going (four episodes in a "good" week?) and given there are 286 episodes between the two of them, it's going to take me well over a year to finish all of it. Probably really more like two, since I have a life, take breaks here and there, and have to balance a ton of things.
So, two years from now, I'll respond to these posts in full. This thread will still be going then, so all I'll have to do is just dig your posts back up.
The other way around. More prominent once DS9 went into arc mode vs the more typical syndicated Trek of S1 and S2. FWIW, I was far more a fan of B5 through season 4 at which point I began to like DS9 much more. Partly that was due to the premature rush to rap up due to the PTEN thing.
Though if it was pitched as a Star Trek prequel some of the concepts would have been adapted that way. IOW: Minbari are adaptations of Vulcans and specifically the split of their forebear into Vulcan and Romulan (which was would have been a result of Babel / Babylon - or with JMS initial plan apparently have to have Babylon destroyed by the Warrior Caste instead of the Shadows retcon).
Then Paramount gets the pitch and rejects it and either the suits 'adapt' that pitch story/1st season bible into DS9 unwittingly.
Let's translate what that hypothetical pitch might have been:
Babel station is created as the last best hope of mankind after the Earth-Vulcan War nearly destroyed it. Rather than what we know from Trek later on from Enterprise, we didn't know these details yet and can presume and JMS may or may not have nodded to the Duane concepts (Rihannsu, etc) , and let's say the Romulans hadn't fully separated yet. The Vulcan Warrior Caste conducts the war and defeats the Earth Fleet but the Religious Caste detects something (probably not Surak at this point but let's go with it when they capture Sinclair at the Battle of the Line). The war ends.
The idea of creating the Babel Station to avoid a future war over a misunderstanding. We can presume Babel 1, 2, 3 are destroyed and Babel 4 disappears. Babel 5 is created with Vulcan funds. The Medusan ambassador Kollos arrives and is poisoned by a shape shifting Vulcan Warrior Caste. Shadows spark a war using the Centauri (who are either a human colony but divergent politically or look close enough to be human - given the reference of Cochrane in TOS as not being human or fully human perhaps a human from Alpha CentaurI? - but perhaps with fancy fan hairdos at this point in the timeline) as agents of chaos.
etc etc
Fast forward to everything else we know from the original treatment (before replacement of Sinclair by Sheridan, etc) and the Warrior Caste split from the Vulcans Gray Council and restart the war with Earth (this is the one referenced in Balance of Terror), attack and destroy Babel 5, the crew steals Babel 4 from back in time and while they're defeating the Shadows with Babel Prime, the Vulcan Warriors are defeated in deep space by Earth with allied help and ends up creating a neutral zone and either take the name or something close to it and are called Romulans by humans. The Babel station is used to help create the Interstellar Allia- ahem the United Federation of Planets.
The Vorlons didn't leave the galaxy in the original treatment but were decimated IIRC. Kollos is still around to mindmeld with Spock later and either there's another Babel station (or a planet gets that code name due to the association with the birth of the Federation). Perhaps the White Star is the first ship with the familiar saucer and nacelle arrangement thanks to the gift of Medusan technology. Or their biological technology is something else.
That's kinda where I think it might have been tongue in cheek 'wink wink' (or nose tweaking) and going both ways, both being aware of each other out of universe. DS9 works if it has an Intrepid or even if it's a Galaxy class that we never see much of (or, for example the Odyssey became the permanent ship assigned to the defense of Bajor) and you just don't see or hear much of its crew other than maybe a line of dialogue here and there.
And yeah some concepts are going to be similar 'spacey thing' but both Commanders turning into Captains and both getting freighter girlfriends seasons and having them both CO disappearing at the end of their series starts to add up doesn't it? If that doesn't, doesn't both female XO's both with dead fathers? We can probably bet Laurel Takashima's dad was dead, too. B5 was originally going to have old doctor instead of a young one, at least.
So it would be that someone at Paramount (maybe even higher than Berman, let alone the writers) had the outline and even if they weren't vague, they scrambled a few details up some to different characters / races and moved some events forward or back to make it look different enough not to be obvious. Legally anyway.
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Except for a few surface things like both being on a space station and getting a ship later, DS9 and B5 are quite different from each other.
There's a lot of holes in your analysis... for example, only Sisko got promoted from Commander to Captain. B5 changed their lead character from Commander Sinclair to Captain Sheridan. (And both characters are quite different from each other.)
Or freighter captain girlfriends: only Kasidy got any real development (she was ACTUALLY captain of a crew, she had hobbies like baseball, smuggled medical supplies to the Maquis, etc.), AND she appeared far more frequently... Catherine Sakai was in 3 or 4 episodes in the first season (her only appearances because she was with Sinclair) while Kasidy was in 4 times as many episodes across FIVE seasons.
That was due to the cast change. Sakai was going to go to Z'ha'dum and get brain wiped/altered. Everything we saw with Anna Sheridan would have been Sakai and possibly expected a few more appearances in seasons 2 and 3 as she came in from the Rim before they got that, but of course the whole O'hare thing happened.
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