My own little IAMD thread...

[CaptainHawk1]

Well, since we got one I figured that I'd start my own as it doesn't appeared that anyone addressed the problem I have with this episode arc. Let me say that although I do friggin LOVE IAMD 1 and 2 I need a little help with something and it happens in the opening teaser of Part I.

OK, the Vulcans land, step off of the ship and Cochrane blasts them with a shotgun. We are then led to believe (and the TOS ep. leads us to believe this, too, and the DS9 ep.'s as well) that Humanity conquered the Vulcans and subjegated them.

WTF???

How did a race people who were pre-warp savages the morning of April 5, 2063 conquer a species that had been spacefaring for 10,000 years (and forgive me if my numbers are off on this but I remember somewhere hearing this about the Vulcans). How is that possible???

Also, we know the Vulcans have been observing Earth for at least 100 plus years (ST:FC, ENT: Carbon Creek), why the H-E-Double-Hockey-Sticks did they decide it would be a good idea to make contact -- ALONE no less -- with a species that had shown nothing but a propensity toward evil and violence? I would think that the Vulcan LOGICAL response would be to proceed cautiously with a crapload of ships to contain the threat of humanity. And before somebody decides to say it, allow me to cut you off: The 21st century humans in IAMD are not the same humans in ST:FC or in the normal Trek universe, despite the fact that they had both experienced a World War a decade earlier. Even Sisko says that humanity was beginning to make positive changes in the early-to-mid-21st Century, so I have a very hard time buying that the emerging enlightened society if it were in the alternate universe would have turned out the way the alt. universe humans did. Does that make sense... or do I sound like Rom trying to figger out the alt. universe?

Anywhoooooo... like I said, I love the ep. but I have a very hard time reconciling that teaser scene. Disuss among yourselves as I'd love to hear some theories.

-Shawn

 

[Sci]

Well, since we got one I figured that I'd start my own as it doesn't appeared that anyone addressed the problem I have with this episode arc. Let me say that although I do friggin LOVE IAMD 1 and 2 I need a little help with something and it happens in the opening teaser of Part I.

OK, the Vulcans land, step off of the ship and Cochrane blasts them with a shotgun. We are then led to believe (and the TOS ep. leads us to believe this, too, and the DS9 ep.'s as well) that Humanity conquered the Vulcans and subjegated them.

WTF???

Keep in mind that there's roughly one hundred years between First Contact and the Terran Empire of "In A Mirror, Darkly." A lot can change in one hundred years; the United States went from being a backwater former colony to a planetary superpower in roughly as much time.

How did a race people who were pre-warp savages the morning of April 5, 2063 conquer a species that had been spacefaring for 10,000 years (and forgive me if my numbers are off on this but I remember somewhere hearing this about the Vulcans). How is that possible??? Also, we know the Vulcans have been observing Earth for at least 100 plus years (ST:FC, ENT: Carbon Creek), why the H-E-Double-Hockey-Sticks did they decide it would be a good idea to make contact -- ALONE no less -- with a species that had shown nothing but a propensity toward evil and violence?

The maximum amount of time that we know the Vulcans of the Regular Universe had been spacefaring was around 3,000-4,000 years, not 10,000.

And what makes you think that the Mirror Vulcans' history is identical to Regular Vulcans'? Mirror Earth's certainly isn't. The Vulcans may not have been paying close attention to Earth at all in the Mirror Universe. And, also, let's keep in mind that while it seems fair to say that MirrorEarth's political culture is more fascistic than ours, it's not fair to say that the entire species has shown nothing but a propensity towards evil and violence; you might as well argue that the Nazi era proves the same of all Germans, or that the Idi Amin regime proves that of all Ugandans.

Keep in mind, too, that the pre-titles sequence to "IAMD" establishes that the Terran Empire has existed at least since the early 20th Century, and it obviously survived whatever conflict produced the disheveled Bozeman, Montana (presumably the Mirror World War III). So right off the bat, MirrorEarth seems to have been more politically unified, and therefore more powerful, than RegularEarth. Add to that the capacity to reverse-engineer Vulcan technology, the distinct possibility that MirrorVulcans may have been much more pacificistic than their RegularVerse counterparts -- especially if the Mirror Romulans weren't manipulating them the way the Regular Romulans were the Regular Vulcans -- and I'd say there's a definite potential for the Terran Empire to rapidly become a regional superpower.

I would think that the Vulcan LOGICAL response would be to proceed cautiously with a crapload of ships to contain the threat of humanity. And before somebody decides to say it, allow me to cut you off: The 21st century humans in IAMD are not the same humans in ST:FC or in the normal Trek universe, despite the fact that they had both experienced a World War a decade earlier. Even Sisko says that humanity was beginning to make positive changes in the early-to-mid-21st Century, so I have a very hard time buying that the emerging enlightened society if it were in the alternate universe would have turned out the way the alt. universe humans did. Does that make sense...

No.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

Well, since we got one I figured that I'd start my own as it doesn't appeared that anyone addressed the problem I have with this episode arc. Let me say that although I do friggin LOVE IAMD 1 and 2 I need a little help with something and it happens in the opening teaser of Part I.

OK, the Vulcans land, step off of the ship and Cochrane blasts them with a shotgun. We are then led to believe (and the TOS ep. leads us to believe this, too, and the DS9 ep.'s as well) that Humanity conquered the Vulcans and subjugated them.

WTF???

Keep in mind that there's roughly one hundred years between First Contact and the Terran Empire of "In A Mirror, Darkly." A lot can change in one hundred years; the United States went from being a backwater former colony to a planetary superpower in roughly as much time.

How did a race people who were pre-warp savages the morning of April 5, 2063 conquer a species that had been space faring for 10,000 years (and forgive me if my numbers are off on this but I remember somewhere hearing this about the Vulcans). How is that possible??? Also, we know the Vulcans have been observing Earth for at least 100 plus years (ST:FC, ENT: Carbon Creek), why the H-E-Double-Hockey-Sticks did they decide it would be a good idea to make contact -- ALONE no less -- with a species that had shown nothing but a propensity toward evil and violence?

The maximum amount of time that we know the Vulcans of the Regular Universe had been space faring was around 3,000-4,000 years, not 10,000.

And what makes you think that the Mirror Vulcans' history is identical to Regular Vulcans'? Mirror Earth's certainly isn't. The Vulcans may not have been paying close attention to Earth at all in the Mirror Universe. And, also, let's keep in mind that while it seems fair to say that MirrorEarth's political culture is more fascistic than ours, it's not fair to say that the entire species has shown nothing but a propensity toward evil and violence; you might as well argue that the Nazi era proves the same of all Germans, or that the Idi Amin regime proves that of all Ugandans.

3,000 - 4,000 or 10,000, what difference does it make? I made a point in the beginning that my years could be off for that but what does it matter? 3,000 years as opposed to 100 years for space faring and give or take 8 hours of Warp capability? As far as the MU Vulcans, everything that we've seen on-screen indicates to me that they are very similar to our Vulcans in their development.

I think it certainly is fair to say that the entire species (aside from a scattered few) has shown a propensity toward evil and violence (in the MU, that is), and I would suggest that Cochrane is a part of that Institution (MU). The analogies of Nazi-ism and the Uganda government under Idi Amin don't hold because Nazi-ism wasn't ever global (although it tried to be) and was opposed by an overwhelming majority of the planet nor was the Amin rule. What they have in common, though, was an overwhelming consent of the people to take control. Nazi-ism succeeded through the democratic process and Amin succeeded with the support of the people through a military coup.

Keep in mind, too, that the pre-titles sequence to "IAMD" establishes that the Terran Empire has existed at least since the early 20th Century, and it obviously survived whatever conflict produced the disheveled Bozeman, Montana (presumably the Mirror World War III). So right off the bat, MirrorEarth seems to have been more politically unified, and therefore more powerful, than RegularEarth.

I agree with this and it proves my point that I just made. My theory when it comes to governments, good and bad, is that they assume and succeed with the consent and will of the people or they are destined to failure. It would appear, as you point out, that the Fascist style of Government is far more global and expansive which leads me to believe that enough people signed up for it. So yes, you can blame the majority of the German population. This is obviously historically simplistic as there were historical circumstances that led to Hitler and the Nazi Party's rise but they don't change the facts.

Add to that the capacity to reverse-engineer Vulcan technology,

...yeah, and I kind of figured that this is where we were going to go with this. I have a hard time buying that MU humans who invented Warp that morning were able to reverse engineer that single ship and take over the entire Vulcan race. There is the issue of time here. What? The Vulcan High Command didn't notice that one of its ships was missing and send other ships to investigate?

the distinct possibility that MirrorVulcans may have been much more pacificistic than their RegularVerse counterparts

..which brings me right back to where I was before. I am willing to accept that maybe these Vulcans were more pacifistic than our Vulcans. That being said, wouldn't it be even more incumbent upon them to use more caution when making contact to avoid any potential conflict or confrontation? Wouldn't it seem the wiser plan to have several ships arrive at Earth to contain any possible situations that may develop?

-- especially if the Mirror Romulans weren't manipulating them the way the Regular Romulans were the Regular Vulcans

Not really getting this. There is no indication that Romulan involvement/manipulation was anything but a recent phenomena during the ENT era. It has never been suggested that the Romulans and the Vulcans had anything to do with each other in the 21st Century --

and I'd say there's a definite potential for the Terran Empire to rapidly become a regional superpower.

Again, I'm back to what I said about the reverse engineering of one ship and then using that technology to take over an entire species. I don't think that the Vulcans, despite how pacifistic they may have been would have just ignored the missing ship.

I would think that the Vulcan LOGICAL response would be to proceed cautiously with a crapload of ships to contain the threat of humanity. And before somebody decides to say it, allow me to cut you off: The 21st century humans in IAMD are not the same humans in ST:FC or in the normal Trek universe, despite the fact that they had both experienced a World War a decade earlier. Even Sisko says that humanity was beginning to make positive changes in the early-to-mid-21st Century, so I have a very hard time buying that the emerging enlightened society if it were in the alternate universe would have turned out the way the alt. universe humans did. Does that make sense...

No.

Allow me to clear this up a little then. History has shown an almost immediate cultural, technological and societal advancement during periods of enlightenment and they become global. My point is that if human beings were becoming more enlightened (as a whole because that's how it works) in the early to mid 21st Century, it is highly unlikely that all of humanity would have fallen off of the wagon so completely by 2063. I'm suggesting that humanity of our Universe is completely different than humanity in the MU and had been for quite some time preceding 2063 or the Bell Riots of the early 21st Century. This being said, and accepting the concept that the MU Vulcans were very similar to our Vulcans, it would seem logical that the Vulcans would have been smart enough to not land that lone ship in Montana to make first contact.

-Shawn

 

[Cyrus]

Mirror episodes are great fun and I like them a lot, but I think it's best not to try to make sense of them. Starting with that first TOS episode nothing about mirror universe makes any sense (mirror characters with different personalities than the regular characters happen to be on the same spaceship, mirror Enterprise is visiting the same planet as the regular Enterprise at the same time, the same 3 people are beaming down, when regular characters end up in the mirror universe they somehow end up with the uniforms of mirror characters, etc). Similar amazing coincidences with DS9 and ENT episodes.

 

[Bak_and_Blue]

I wondered about this too, and I've had lesser trek-heads ask me this as well. I always say that highly aggressive human-ness wins out over logical and basically peace loving Vulcan-ness every time.
The humans took that Vulcan ship and reverse engineered the hell out of it. Then they took the star charts and went right for the throat.

Make sense?

Mmmmmmmm, maybe not. Meh.

 

[Sci]

3,000 - 4,000 or 10,000, what difference does it make?

It makes a difference of six to seven thousand years.

I made a point in the beginning that my years could be off for that but what does it matter? 3,000 years as opposed to 100 years for space faring and give or take 8 hours of Warp capability?

Keep in mind that ENT itself established that being in space a long time doesn't automatically lead to a concommitant level of technological advancement. The Vulcans took hundreds of years to go from low-level warp to high-level warp. Further, ENT also made it clear in "The Forge" that it took Vulcans hundreds of years to recover from their nuclear war and re-establish themselves as an interstellar power. So the Vulcans' space presence in the Regular verse wasn't continuous and linear; ergo it needn't have been for the MirrorVulcans.

As far as the MU Vulcans, everything that we've seen on-screen indicates to me that they are very similar to our Vulcans in their development.

Except that we've seen nothing of MirrorVulcan development. Our earliest canonical information available on the MirrorVulcans is that in 2063, they landed a ship that was visual identical to the T'Plana-Hath in the Regular verse. That's it.

I think it certainly is fair to say that the entire species (aside from a scattered few) has shown a propensity toward evil and violence

How's that? We've only ever seen a scattered few Mirror Humans in the Imperial Starfleet; you might as well argue that all Germans are barbarous and evil and genocidal after following a few companies of Nazi SS troops around during World War II. And heck, the Humans in DS9's Mirror Universe episodes seemed damn near heroic at times.

The analogies of Nazi-ism and the Uganda government under Idi Amin don't hold because Nazi-ism wasn't ever global (although it tried to be) and was opposed by an overwhelming majority of the planet nor was the Amin rule.

And we have absolutely no information available on how the Terran Empire secured its hold on planetary and interstellar power, nor do we have any information on how most Humans feel about the Empire. It's entirely possible that most people don't support the Empire but that it's simply too powerful for them to overthrow. Maybe there's a Resistence movement. Maybe that was what Mirorr Eart's Third World War was about -- liberal democracy opposing Imperial tyranny but losing and being conquered.

You're making a hell of a lot of assumptions on the basis of extremely dubious evidence.

What they have in common, though, was an overwhelming consent of the people to take control. Nazi-ism succeeded through the democratic process and Amin succeeded with the support of the people through a military coup.
I agree with this and it proves my point that I just made. My theory when it comes to governments, good and bad, is that they assume and succeed with the consent and will of the people or they are destined to failure. It would appear, as you point out, that the Fascist style of Government is far more global and expansive which leads me to believe that enough people signed up for it. So yes, you can blame the majority of the German population.

So all Germans are evil?

This is obviously historically simplistic as there were historical circumstances that led to Hitler and the Nazi Party's rise

Incredibly so. Not the least of which is the fact that Hitler would never have been able to gain as much power as he had were it not for backroom dealings with the Social Democrats, the age and personality of the German President (and his subsequent death), and the fact that Hitler called multiple elections several times in order to bloster his parliamentary standing when a reasonable head of state would have opposed him. To say nothing of the Reichstag Fire. Hitler subverted parliamentary democracy, and as such, the culpability of the German people as a whole is not as clear-cut as you're making it seem. To say nothing of the fact that it is just plain racist to say that all Germans have any more of a propensity for evil than any other ethnic group.

I have a hard time buying that MU humans who invented Warp that morning were able to reverse engineer that single ship and take over the entire Vulcan race. There is the issue of time here. What? The Vulcan High Command didn't notice that one of its ships was missing and send other ships to investigate? ..which brings me right back to where I was before. I am willing to accept that maybe these Vulcans were more pacifistic than our Vulcans. That being said, wouldn't it be even more incumbent upon them to use more caution when making contact to avoid any potential conflict or confrontation?

That's your conception of the logical approach. A Vulcan may just as well argue that contact will occur in one form or another and that it is better to approach with open arms and an attitude of trust, for a race that can be trusted will return it, and a race that cannot be trusted will be found out as such immediately instead of fooling them.

Wouldn't it seem the wiser plan to have several ships arrive at Earth to contain any possible situations that may develop?

If the Mirror Universe T'Plana-Hath is like the regularverse one, they probably weren't expecting to make first contact when they arrived in the Sol system and did so only in response to the Chocrane experiment.

Not really getting this. There is no indication that Romulan involvement/manipulation was anything but a recent phenomena during the ENT era.

Actually, ENT made it clear that the Vulcan government had adopted a semi-xenophobic and hostile attitude towards aliens for at least the last century, including the Andorian conflict and the patronizing attitudes towards Earth. If anything, that implies to me that the Romulans had been manipulating Vulcan for a while.

Again, I'm back to what I said about the reverse engineering of one ship and then using that technology to take over an entire species. I don't think that the Vulcans, despite how pacifistic they may have been would have just ignored the missing ship.

What makes you think it would have happened so quickly? It could well have taken decades for the Terran Empire to conquer Vulcan.

Allow me to clear this up a little then. History has shown an almost immediate cultural, technological and societal advancement during periods of enlightenment

Really? So how come Adolf Hitler came after Mill and Russeau and Locke?

and they become global.

You might want to tell that to Robert Mugabe and Perves Musharaff. Or George W. Bush, for that matter.

My point is that if human beings were becoming more enlightened (as a whole because that's how it works) in the early to mid 21st Century, it is highly unlikely that all of humanity would have fallen off of the wagon so completely by 2063.

Germany was the birthplace of the Enlightenment. It was the nation of Kant. It was where Martin Luther started the Protestant Revolution. It was the home of philosophy.

Didn't stop it from becoming the literal definition of a barbarous state in the 20th Century.

I'm suggesting that humanity of our Universe is completely different than humanity in the MU and had been for quite some time preceding 2063 or the Bell Riots of the early 21st Century.

The history and political culture, sure. The fundamental nature? Not so much. The Terran Empire is just humanity if the political culture reflects humanity's darkest impulses instead of its best.

This being said, and accepting the concept that the MU Vulcans were very similar to our Vulcans,

Which I do not.

it would seem logical that the Vulcans would have been smart enough to not land that lone ship in Montana to make first contact.

Maybe that captain didn't know a lot about Earth history? Maybe they hadn't been following Earth developments as much as you're presuming? Maybe he was an idealist who believed in giving peace a chance? Maybe this, maybe that. There are many, many different possible scenerios you aren't considering.

 

[CaptainHawk1]

Sci, I have to ask you this: why do you have to come off as pissed off and personally offended in every flippin' post you write? What makes you think you know more than everyone else on every subject? I certainly don't need a history lesson from you. I'm very well versed in German history from the 1500's forward, thank you. I'm simply not going to go off on a complete tangent when it's off topic.

And for the record, where do you get off suggesting that I'm racist toward Germans? You don't know me or my background. Let me give you a brief rundown: My mother's maiden name is Schmidt. A good 50% of her family lived in Germany during WWII and 1/3 of them still do. Now let me tell you a story about her cousin, Willie (Wilhelm). Willie saw what was coming (like most of Germany did) in the 1930's. In 1940, Willie had saved enough money to send his family to the U.S. while he stayed in Germany and he was conscripted into the German military. After the War ended, it took Willie 12 years before he was allowed to emigrate to the U.S. because of his "Nazi ties." Two weeks after his arrival, his eighteen year-old son whom he hadn't seen since he was an infant, was killed in an automobile accident. Welcome to America, Willie... sorry it took so long.

So, in conclusion, do you think it would be possible for you to stop being a complete douche bag for five minutes? Just sayin', is all.

Hasn't anyone ever taught you that arguing on the Internet is like competing in the Special Olympics? Even if you win, you're still retarded.

I'll respond to all of your "counterpoints" when I have more time.

-Shawn

 

[Sci]

Sci, I have to ask you this: why do you have to come off as pissed off and personally offended in every flippin' post you write?

I don't know, because I'm neither pissed off nor personally offended, nor do I think my writing style comes off that way.

What makes you think you know more than everyone else on every subject?

Nothing. I certainly disagreed with your interpretation of history, but nothing I said was in any way meant as a personal attack. Don't take something I write personally unless I specifically insult you.

I certainly don't need a history lesson from you. I'm very well versed in German history from the 1500's forward, thank you. I'm simply not going to go off on a complete tangent when it's off topic.

Nothing I wrote above was an off-topic tangent; everything I wrote was for the purpose of establishing a counter-argument to your claims.

And for the record, where do you get off suggesting that I'm racist toward Germans?

I would suggest here a fundamental misunderstanding of my statements above. The point in my above statements was to take the same logic you're using in describing the entire Human race in the Mirror Universe as having nothing but a propensity for violence and applying it to Germany to demonstrate its absurdity. Obviously, all Germans are not Nazis, and obviously it is absurd to suggest so -- and obviously you agree. The point is to demonstrate that your conclusions with regards to Mirror Universe Humans is just as absurd. I apologize if I was unclear with my intent, though my original point reminds: Your characterization of the Mirror Universe Humans as having nothing but a propensity for evil is dubious at best, based upon limited and biased evidence, and would, if it were to be applied to an analogous situation (i.e., attempting to judge the fundamental nature of an entire people on the basis of the atrocities of some of its political elites and/or military personnel), be considered racist.

 

[STIntergalactic]

OK...here's what happened...

MirrorCochrane and the gang raided the Vulcan ship and killed everyone. Somehow they managed to use the ship technology to send a message to Vulcan to say one of their ships crashed. When two ships the Vulcans sent for help got there, the humans killed them too. Except, that is, for a few crew members that they kept alive at gunpoint to help them run and fly the ships.

Now, with three ships in their control, they headed toward Vulcan. Using the ships' databases, they strategically surround the planet. They were able to take out the Vulcan capitol, some ship yards, communication satelites, planetary power stations, and several highly populated cities...all within minutes of arriving. Unable to organize a defense, Vulcan was forced to surrender to the Terrans.