Kelby was a bit of a twit, really.
I doubt many of the crew were ready to trust him after what happened in "Bound", anyway.
Kobayashi Maru Preview & Cover Art
- Thread starter Quark's Lobe
- Start date
Kelby was a bit of a twit, really.
I doubt many of the crew were ready to trust him after what happened in "Bound", anyway.
First off, I'd like to apologize for going off on Christopher like I did. I've been having a string of bad, stressful days lately, and my temper finally got the better of me.
I've also calmed down a bit now that I've had a chance to confer with Margaret Clark, Mike Martin, and Andy Mangels, and I've read through a number of relevant portions of the Kobayashi Maru ms. I'm not going to spoil anything, but I will say that Mike and Andy did take into account continuity elements from past TrekLit — including some rather important details from A Time to Kill and A Time to Heal.
I get the feeling it will all be just fine. After all, the line in Star Trek is "Gamma Hydra," and the star system way up along the Neutral Zone is Gamma Hydrae. One small letter...possibly a galaxy of difference.
I've also calmed down a bit now that I've had a chance to confer with Margaret Clark, Mike Martin, and Andy Mangels, and I've read through a number of relevant portions of the Kobayashi Maru ms. I'm not going to spoil anything, but I will say that Mike and Andy did take into account continuity elements from past TrekLit — including some rather important details from A Time to Kill and A Time to Heal.
I get the feeling it will all be just fine. After all, the line in Star Trek is "Gamma Hydra," and the star system way up along the Neutral Zone is Gamma Hydrae. One small letter...possibly a galaxy of difference.
Also just for the record as verbatim as that quote may be, TWOK scene wasn't even internally consistent. The simulation also stated that the Enterprise was on a training mission to Gamma Hydra, then proceeded to plot a course going around the approaching "neutral zone" to get there. When they get the distress call, Kobayashi Maru confirms its position, apparently 19 "periods" out of Altair VI, at Gamma Hydra, the Ent's intended destination, which Saavik now says is IN the "neutral zone". So, make of that what you will.
This cracky inconsistency can be remedied if one assumes that "Gamma Hydra" is referring to not the star but a somewhat larger region in which these Sections reside, with Ent being at the border of sections 14/15, KM's position in the Neutral zone in section 10 and Ent's destination being somewhere else entirely, but it just seems like an f-up in the film to me. (Of which Trek has been known to make on occasion within its neat little realm of canonicity.)
On a bit of a tangent, it seems in the novelization of TWOK, Vonda rectified this somewhat. In addition to minor tweaking of the terminology to bring the scene a bit more into line scientifically and trek-cartographically, i.e. changing periods to parsecs and sections to sectors, she also omitted KM's line about being located at Gamma Hydra. Which really makes sense considering well, rationality. So good on ya ma'am! That's using your noodle!
So in McIntyre's slightly revised version KM is now 12 parsecs out of Altair (aka about 39lys away from it) on its way to where ever it was going, now in the "neutral zone", and the Enterprise is just coming into interception range with it on their way to Gamma Hydra. No conflicts anywhere and the scene actually works! Hooray!
About forty light years from Altair still won't put the Kobayashi Maru in the area that Mandel depicts for the "real-life" KM incident, but that TWOK figure was only from a simulation anyway so what does it matter right?
This cracky inconsistency can be remedied if one assumes that "Gamma Hydra" is referring to not the star but a somewhat larger region in which these Sections reside, with Ent being at the border of sections 14/15, KM's position in the Neutral zone in section 10 and Ent's destination being somewhere else entirely, but it just seems like an f-up in the film to me. (Of which Trek has been known to make on occasion within its neat little realm of canonicity.)
On a bit of a tangent, it seems in the novelization of TWOK, Vonda rectified this somewhat. In addition to minor tweaking of the terminology to bring the scene a bit more into line scientifically and trek-cartographically, i.e. changing periods to parsecs and sections to sectors, she also omitted KM's line about being located at Gamma Hydra. Which really makes sense considering well, rationality. So good on ya ma'am! That's using your noodle!
So in McIntyre's slightly revised version KM is now 12 parsecs out of Altair (aka about 39lys away from it) on its way to where ever it was going, now in the "neutral zone", and the Enterprise is just coming into interception range with it on their way to Gamma Hydra. No conflicts anywhere and the scene actually works! Hooray!
About forty light years from Altair still won't put the Kobayashi Maru in the area that Mandel depicts for the "real-life" KM incident, but that TWOK figure was only from a simulation anyway so what does it matter right?
First off, I'd like to apologize for going off on Christopher like I did. I've been having a string of bad, stressful days lately, and my temper finally got the better of me.
I've also calmed down a bit now that I've had a chance to confer with Margaret Clark, Mike Martin, and Andy Mangels, and I've read through a number of relevant portions of the Kobayashi Maru ms. I'm not going to spoil anything, but I will say that Mike and Andy did take into account continuity elements from past TrekLit — including some rather important details from A Time to Kill and A Time to Heal.
I get the feeling it will all be just fine. After all, the line in Star Trek is "Gamma Hydra," and the star system way up along the Neutral Zone is Gamma Hydrae. One small letter...possibly a galaxy of difference.
David,
Will the Destiny trilogy be connected to the KM book in any way?
Inquriring minds would like to know... Mainly mine.
Why is this book called Kobayashi Maru when there is already a Star Trek book called Kobayashi Maru?
According to the front of the book it's title is "Star Trek Enterprise: The Kobayashi Maru." I'm pretty certain the other one wasn't an Enterprise book.
And on the subject of placement of star system I'd like to say that's the reason why I probably won't ever write anything related to Star Trek. I'm pretty confidant in my writing skills and I decided I wanted to write a peice for Strange New Worlds, centering on Enterprise. The story idea was sound -- I think -- but within just a few pages I was bombarded with questions. Is the turbolift directly on the bridge of the NX, or is there a little hallway to it? Did the NX have a captain's ready room? Trip had a sister, but did he have a brother? How many brothers did Mayweather have? How do they open the shuttle door when leaving the shuttle bay? Is Porthos ever allowed to wander in the halls? That's like six hours worth of research right there just for a short story.
I really think people should keep in mind that the writers are playing a tough game here. The fact that they've managed to get Archer and the NX into something originally mentioned nearly 20 years before Enterprise first aired is a feat enough in itself. (This isn't sucking up to the authors, I honestily don't relish that many constraints.)
And on the subject of placement of star system I'd like to say that's the reason why I probably won't ever write anything related to Star Trek. I'm pretty confidant in my writing skills and I decided I wanted to write a peice for Strange New Worlds, centering on Enterprise. The story idea was sound -- I think -- but within just a few pages I was bombarded with questions. Is the turbolift directly on the bridge of the NX, or is there a little hallway to it? Did the NX have a captain's ready room? Trip had a sister, but did he have a brother? How many brothers did Mayweather have? How do they open the shuttle door when leaving the shuttle bay? Is Porthos ever allowed to wander in the halls? That's like six hours worth of research right there just for a short story.
I really think people should keep in mind that the writers are playing a tough game here. The fact that they've managed to get Archer and the NX into something originally mentioned nearly 20 years before Enterprise first aired is a feat enough in itself. (This isn't sucking up to the authors, I honestily don't relish that many constraints.)
Narratively, there is a small degree of overlap, and some of the characters that I created for the trilogy will actually be first seen by readers of Kobayashi Maru and Christopher L. Bennett's Greater Than the Sum. As part of our ongoing effort to keep all the books in line with one another, a large number of us have been coordinating behind the scenes to make sure we have consistent rosters of characters and other details.
Let's just say I'm still stinging from the Nurse Etana Kol and Stefka Merrimark fiascoes of Warpath.
This complaint is coming rather late in the game, given that the titles Triangle, Enterprise, Honor Bound, Requiem, Masks, Emissary, Final Frontier, Perchance to Dream, First Contact, Nemesis, and several other titles have been repeated in Trek lore.....
Some musings about the scenario as portrayed in TWoK:
So it seems the KM was heading out from Altair VI, with a destination somewhere beyond Gamma Hydra. Following the pseudo-naval themes of the movie, "nineteen periods out" sounds like a futuristic way of saying "nineteen days out" (so I'd respectfully disagree with substituting "parsec" there, unless the discussion is held in a Tatooine tavern). Going by the Star Charts assumptions (and by the original "Deadly Years" idea that the Neutral Zone is a shortcut between Gamma Hydra and the civilized part of the Federation), the KM would have been skirting the NZ for most of those weeks, and no doubt wishing to skim as much from her travel time as possible by steering close to the border. A fatal navigational error would then be quite plausible.
The big question is, does Kojiro's message convey to Saavik enough information that she can decide the KM is within the NZ now? I'd agree with the idea that "Gamma Hydra" is a region of space (albeit much smaller than a sector) of which Sections 1 through 8 are safe UFP territory but anything from 9 to 16 is within the NZ, as all good Starfleet officers know. Or then "Section 10" is part of a set of rules about shipping, and Kojiro's message means "We're up to our necks in territory that is out of bounds as per Section 10".
As for how the confusion came to be, I'd share the blame evenly.
After all, TWoK shows that there were Klingons at Gamma Hydra, while "Deadly Years" shows there are Romulans there and it's their NZ, so the TWoK writers should hang. The Star Charts basically suggests the Klingons were in Romulan space - perhaps as allies of the Romulans, perhaps in order to frame the Romulans and cause a Rom-Fed war - but since the bit about Tezwa contradicts this, the suggestion is wrong and I should hang for making it. Perhaps the Charts should have been drawn so that Gamma Hydra sits right between the Romulan and Klingon Neutral Zones? Then again, only the "Time to" storyline so far suggests that the KM incident was real to begin with, and if we didn't have to accept that, then the TWoK simulation could be as screwy as the instructors want it to be (say, Nazi tanks suddenly pop up at the Chosin Reservoir) and still not create a contradiction as regards the Trek "reality".
In the end, I still think I like the newest take on it all the best, even if I might have to speculate that Tezwa lies somewhat closer to Gamma Hydra than I thought...
Timo Saloniemi
So it seems the KM was heading out from Altair VI, with a destination somewhere beyond Gamma Hydra. Following the pseudo-naval themes of the movie, "nineteen periods out" sounds like a futuristic way of saying "nineteen days out" (so I'd respectfully disagree with substituting "parsec" there, unless the discussion is held in a Tatooine tavern). Going by the Star Charts assumptions (and by the original "Deadly Years" idea that the Neutral Zone is a shortcut between Gamma Hydra and the civilized part of the Federation), the KM would have been skirting the NZ for most of those weeks, and no doubt wishing to skim as much from her travel time as possible by steering close to the border. A fatal navigational error would then be quite plausible.
The big question is, does Kojiro's message convey to Saavik enough information that she can decide the KM is within the NZ now? I'd agree with the idea that "Gamma Hydra" is a region of space (albeit much smaller than a sector) of which Sections 1 through 8 are safe UFP territory but anything from 9 to 16 is within the NZ, as all good Starfleet officers know. Or then "Section 10" is part of a set of rules about shipping, and Kojiro's message means "We're up to our necks in territory that is out of bounds as per Section 10".
As for how the confusion came to be, I'd share the blame evenly.
After all, TWoK shows that there were Klingons at Gamma Hydra, while "Deadly Years" shows there are Romulans there and it's their NZ, so the TWoK writers should hang. The Star Charts basically suggests the Klingons were in Romulan space - perhaps as allies of the Romulans, perhaps in order to frame the Romulans and cause a Rom-Fed war - but since the bit about Tezwa contradicts this, the suggestion is wrong and I should hang for making it. Perhaps the Charts should have been drawn so that Gamma Hydra sits right between the Romulan and Klingon Neutral Zones? Then again, only the "Time to" storyline so far suggests that the KM incident was real to begin with, and if we didn't have to accept that, then the TWoK simulation could be as screwy as the instructors want it to be (say, Nazi tanks suddenly pop up at the Chosin Reservoir) and still not create a contradiction as regards the Trek "reality".In the end, I still think I like the newest take on it all the best, even if I might have to speculate that Tezwa lies somewhat closer to Gamma Hydra than I thought...
Timo Saloniemi
Except "nineteen 'units of time' out" is a completely meaningless statement without the speed, when you're trying to help someone locate you for a rescue!
I thought that--if not Saavik's log entry, then a line from Sulu or the navigator--earlier the Enterprise is cited to be entering a different section of Gamma Hydra. In that case, I think the former is the more likely.
You could still accept that it was real, but that the parameters aren't necessarily in line with reality. Obviously, the Klingon and Federation ships involved were changed; who's to say that the location (or even opposing faction) weren't changed too?
Hell, did the Klingon or Romulan Neutral Zones even exist at the time of the incident?
But perfectly fitting the overall Horatio Hornblower context: even the masters of old-time dead reckoning couldn't give their position more accurately than that.
And it's not as if Kojiro, or whoever it is who's speaking, is giving his position by saying "nineteen X out". The point seems to be that Kojiro was lost and for that reason (rather than out of malice or idiocy) loitered to Romulan space - the best he can give is "Section 10", which already tells Saavik enough.
Or then Saavik is just playing along. If this really is one of those classic military exercises like "What would you do if you were to take the Arnhem bridge?" or "How would you survive Little Big Horn?", then Saavik might have known going in that she were to save the Kobayashi Maru, details be damned. It's unlikely she would have expected a calm ride to be her final exam; and if she knew she was going to Gamma Hydra, she might start guessing on her intended predicament and play along with the simulation. A literal-minded (semi-)Vulcan or not...
One should think not - if the incident indeed leads to the Romulan War as the new book suggests!
Timo Saloniemi
No problem. You're near the end of a marathon writing session, churning out a whole huge trilogy in just a few months, so it's no surprise you're stressed out.
I get the feeling it will all be just fine. After all, the line in Star Trek is "Gamma Hydra," and the star system way up along the Neutral Zone is Gamma Hydrae. One small letter...possibly a galaxy of difference.
More likely just variant pronunciations of the same thing, since people don't always remember their Latin possessive forms. That's happened more than once in Trek -- Alpha Cygnus (Cygni), Epsilon Hydra (Hydrae), Ceti Alpha (Alpha Ceti). But then, Trek has kind of forced us to postulate the existence of two Rigels, so whatever.
Will the book explain how the test came about and why it's a no win scenerio?
^ Stop with that crazy talk!
But this forum wouldn't exist without the crazy talk and I would be out of a job!
Some musings about the scenario as portrayed in TWoK:
As for how the confusion came to be, I'd share the blame evenly.
Perish the thought, there shall be now Timo hangings today!
But Gamma Hydrae is real, regardless of misspelling it Gamma Hydra, it's accurate in its placement in the charts. There is, however, merit in the theory, and certainly plenty of precedence in Trek, of names of trek places being bastardizations of scientific astronomical terms and real system names. (Mira Antliae anyone?) Even if they may be repetitious.
It still is as screwy as the instructors want it to be!
I think that Star Charts is fine, if we can suppose that the Maru simulation is taking place about 40 lys out of Altair then, according to Star Charts, this could easily put it in the Rom NZ. Which, as a hypothesis, has many positive attributes. In neither the book nor the film is the NZ actually stated to be the Klingon Neutral Zone, given that, the fact is that the only canonical reference to any NZ is the Romulan NZ, so that fits the scenario well enough. Combine that with the previously established facts regarding "The Deadly Years" i.e. Gamma Hydra and the Romulans, and the convenient image from TWOK of "the NZ" being a large egg-shaped region, and that dovetails nicely into the depiction in Star Charts.
The Kobayashi Maru test.
Given its setting on the 23rd Century Enterprise, the appearance of 23rd century Klingon ships, the unlikelihood of the existence of any NZs at all during the pre-federation period at any rate, and unaided by the scene's use of very curious distance and regional nomenclature, I think it's safe to say that the only facts presented in the simulation that we can give any kind of credence to are that:
a. there's a ship in distress named the Kobayashi Maru, and
b. it's a no-win situation.
Almost nothing else in that scene resembles the probable reality of the situation, so common sense should tell us that we really shouldn't rely on any of it to be historically accurate.
There's no contradiction with the bit about Tezwa, that reference is completely consistent with what's shown in Star Charts. The Wrath of Khan simulation is also consistent with Star Charts if one infers the Romulan border, given what was already established in TOS.
However the simulation itself has never been shown to be consistent with its own historical basis at any time we've seen it. It has always been just a very important, student-agonizing LARP/videogame.
With any of these references, things only become problematic if one assumes any of the events take place at or near Gamma Hydra, which was my messed up assumption in the first place. Looking closer at the film scene, I see now that it doesn't make any sense, and the slightly tweaked version in the novelization even makes an effort to clear that up. So really, no reconciliations need be made.
yet...
Last edited:
