Surely you’re not so naive as to think that multiple foreign governments do not have agents in play at the same time.
It bothers me of how much corruption there is within Starfleet.
- Thread starter The Rock
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Yep. Multiple governments are infiltrating each other at all times but the Changelings and the Zhat Vash were at a scale and level of control that it's hard to think they didn't notice each other (to be fair maybe they did and wondered which of their plots would succeed first)
Why does Shelby have any responsibility for the Synth ban or Zhat Vash infiltrators? Considering she was only a Captain three years before the attack on Mars, she likely wasn't any higher than Commodore at the time of the attack. Not to mention something like the Synth ban would have been decided by the Federation president, so no Starfleet officer can be held responsible for that.
As for the Zhat Vash infiltrating Starfleet, if anyone were expected to "hang their head in shame and apologize" for that it would be Admiral Clancy, as she was Starfleet's CinC at the time the Zhat Vash infiltration was exposed . I suppose whoever the CinC was at the time of the attack could also be held responsible, but that certainly wasn't Shelby. Indeed, it's not really clear if Shelby was Starfleet's CinC in Picard's third season, as some have suggested that could have been Janeway, given how she's always spoken of throughout the season as someone Very Important within Starfleet.
Regardless, about the only thing that Shelby can be blamed for was implementing the network that connected all Starfleet ships together, and I'd say she's already paid for that mistake.
Does everyone forget that the Romulans had a Vulcan ambassador agent placed and Starfleet just shrugged?
Never mind in the real world were sleeper agents can go on in the target country for years. One Soviet agent did it for ten: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38846022
Never mind in the real world were sleeper agents can go on in the target country for years. One Soviet agent did it for ten: https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-38846022
No, not everyone.
Although, I think there's something to be said about early TNG portraying a human future that's "alien" and different. Obviously there's a spectrum to this that both makes it relatable to viewers, and also seems believable.
But I do think the world-building in early TNG attempts (even if it was badly done) to portray a human society that's radically different in the ways people act, and the everyday problems they deal with, in the same way a person watching human society of the 19th century would notice huge differences in the way people behave and treat each other. Medical care in the 19th century sometimes involved a town's barber doing surgery. That's as much a shift between treating headaches with aspirin in the here and now and them being so rare that people are surprised by it in the 24th century.
I think current Trek tends to show 23rd-25th century humans as basically being 21st century people that seem very similar culturally to 21st century America with similar 21st century problems in a future setting where we're told things are different, but it doesn't exactly seem to be shown as different as early TNG tried to be.
Just think about how the definitions of family, gender, marriage, and other societal norms have changed and shifted over the past 40 years, and I think that it's not crazy to speculate that there would be massive shifts culturally for a society 300 years in the future. Especially in a setting where we take it as a given that greed, discrimination, crime, organized religion and war have been eliminated on Earth.
Well, the corruption in Picard season 3 was made by an cooperation of the Changelings with the
Borg.
At any given time there are probably agents of the Cardassians, the Dominion, the Romulans, the Klingons and Rod knows who else buried deep in the political and military apparatus of the Federation. Some of whom will work in concert if it is to their advantage.
Which is how I mentally justify the existence of Section 31. It's unrealistic that the Federation would not have a counterpoint to the Obsidian Order or the Talk Shiar.
For those who say that's what Starfleet Intelligence is for my response is the real world has multiple agencies in the same country. FBI, CIA, NSA. Plus special forces military divisions like SEAL teams.
And you've heard of all of those. Section 31 is simultaneously in the Federation charter but nobody knows that they exist.
People always compare Section 31 to the Tal Shiar and the Obsidian Order, even Odo did that in the show, but I've never really seen how it's an apt comparison. Even ignoring the fact that the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar were officially sanctioned government organizations and Section 31 was meant to be an illegal criminal conspiracy, since the show seems to have ignored that aspect of Section 31 these days, they're still not similar at all. Even with modern depictions, Section 31's main purpose is plausible deniability, they cover the things the Federation can't officially touch and are in turn disavowed by the Federation government. And while the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order undoubtedly handle their share of clandestine operations, the majority of what they do is still publicly acknowledged by their governments. Like when the Flaxian's ship got bombed on DS9, Sisko got in contact with the Tal Shiar's public relations division who outright admitted to carrying out the bombing and provided the paperwork authorizing it and making it legal. Section 31 would have tried to hide their involvement in the matter completely and in the event it did come to light they were involved, they'd use one of their own as a patsy to take the fall.
Plus there's the fact the Order and the Tal Shiar also handle domestic security with a mandate of keeping their populations in line. And while Section 31 will go after a Federation citizen who is deemed a threat, domestic security and keeping the citizenry in line isn't exactly part of their remit. They deal solely with existential threats to the Federation, whether from without or within.
Except it's IN THE FEDERATION CHARTER.
Not exactly.
It's in the original Starfleet Charter, and predates the Federation and the Federation's version of Starfleet. Not even Archer was aware of it during Enterprise until being told by Reed.
So it's not inconceivable that maybe, in the same way the Vulcans didn't talk to humans about Pon Farr and some other things, humanity didn't share knowledge about our secret intelligence service when we became besties.
That doesn't preclude it from also being in the Federation Starfleet charter.
And even if it isn't, some legal jurisdictions operate under the principle that "anything that isn't banned, is permitted", if the UFP is like that, then there's an argument that there would need to be something in the charter which specifically states that Starfleet are NOT allowed to "take extraordinary measures in times of extreme threat" which seems unlikely.
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