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How much legit does the science have to be in your sci-fi TV/movies?

I think sci-fi is a bit like a magic trick. I go into it knowing that something about it isn't real, but I'm willing to be misled for the sake of entertainment. The writer has to put the work in to sell me on the trick though, or at least use clever misdirection to keep me from thinking about it in the moment. Because when I start thinking 'that didn't make any sense!' I stop being able to take it seriously.

Not even a fantasy-leaning sci-fi story like Star Wars is immune to this, no matter how much George Lucas might want it to be. I've seen so many people being taken out of The Last Jedi by the scene where someone goes outside without a spacesuit, even though it happens in basically every other space opera at some point. You gotta sell the trick or it don't work.

On the other hand, I thought red matter worked well because of how vague it is. I can't say it wouldn't work in real life, because I don't even know what it's doing! All I know is that is that it's sci-fi stuff from the future and when it's dropped onto something a black hole appears, and that's all the movie needs in the moment.

But Trek is usually good at giving impossible things enough levels of plausible explanation that I can reach an answer I'm satisfied with before I dig deep enough to hit the impossible part.

"How does the ship go faster than light?" - It uses a warp drive.
"How does the warp drive work?" - The warp drive uses a matter-antimatter reaction regulated by dilithium crystals to power giant nacelles full of warp coils which create a warp bubble that distorts space-time.
"How does... actually, you know what, I'm happy to accept that and move on."
 
Not even a fantasy-leaning sci-fi story like Star Wars is immune to this, no matter how much George Lucas might want it to be. I've seen so many people being taken out of The Last Jedi by the scene where someone goes outside without a spacesuit, even though it happens in basically every other space opera at some point. You gotta sell the trick or it don't work.

If you mean the Leia scene, it's not implausible to me, even by realistic standards. It's possible to remain conscious in vacuum for maybe 15-20 seconds, and to survive for up to 2 minutes. The timing was about right, and she was still incapacitated and in need of advanced medical treatment afterward. It's actually one of the less fanciful bits in Star Wars, but audiences have been so misled by decades of inane misrepresentations of how vacuum works (the ultimate inanity being Outland showing people exploding like water balloons the instant they hit vacuum, which is totally misunderstanding what "explosive decompression" means) that they don't recognize a reasonably accurate depiction when they see it.

It's nowhere near as silly as the sequence in Episode III where a ship in space tilts 90 degrees and the interior gravity rotates with it. I've seen it rationalized that the ship was actually hovering in place in Coruscant's upper atmosphere, but if it's levitating over a planet, then presumably it's negating the planet's gravity and any weight the occupants feel would be from the ship's internal artificial gravity, which should remain consistently toward the deck regardless of how the ship is oriented.


On the other hand, I thought red matter worked well because of how vague it is. I can't say it wouldn't work in real life, because I don't even know what it's doing! All I know is that is that it's sci-fi stuff from the future and when it's dropped onto something a black hole appears, and that's all the movie needs in the moment.

No, that takes it too far for me. It's one thing to postulate an as-yet-undiscovered substance that achieves a physically plausible effect, but what Red Matter did was just absurdly fanciful and offered without even a hint of a handwave explanation.


But Trek is usually good at giving impossible things enough levels of plausible explanation that I can reach an answer I'm satisfied with before I dig deep enough to hit the impossible part.

"How does the ship go faster than light?" - It uses a warp drive.
"How does the warp drive work?" - The warp drive uses a matter-antimatter reaction regulated by dilithium crystals to power giant nacelles full of warp coils which create a warp bubble that distorts space-time.
"How does... actually, you know what, I'm happy to accept that and move on."

But warp drive is not a fantasy idea. It's a legitimate, if prohibitively impractical, solution of the equations of General Relativity. It uses an entirely real physical phenomenon, the distortion of spacetime by gravity, to achieve a speculative result. It's a concept that was well-established in prose science fiction for over three decades by the time TOS came along. It's grounded in the known and the real, and that makes it a credible extrapolation. The only implausibilities of it are in the nitty-gritty details, which is good enough for fiction.

Heck, by the standards of 1960s-80s sci-fi TV, even acknowledging that you would need a faster-than-light drive to reach alien star systems, rather than simply using a rocket or drifting on a rogue Moon, was above-average science literacy. And understanding that matter-antimatter annihilation would be the only energy source powerful enough to make it feasible was good science too, even if not all of Trek's writers understood how antimatter worked ("The Alternative Factor" being the worst offender in so many ways, but there was also "Obsession" grossly overstating its power). The way they used dilithium was fine, because they didn't propose it as the source of power, merely as a part of the systems that stored and channeled the power.

Red matter, by contrast, pays lip service to a real phenomenon, black holes, but depicts them entirely wrongly and treats them as essentially magic. It's not the same at all. Abrams couldn't even be bothered to come up with a name that sounded like something scientific. "Red matter?" That's absurdly vague. At least "protomatter," the name of another completely fanciful Trek MacGuffin, suggested an actual meaning, as "proto-" suggests an ancestral or primitive form of a thing, a forerunner or more basic state that it arises from. You can tell from the name what it's meant to imply, and it's an implication that fits the context. I'd be the last person to argue that protomatter makes sense as a concept, any more than Genesis does, but at least its name makes sense, compared to the laziness of "red matter."


Yeah, because that's point it goes off the rails. "Dilithuim crystals". Might as well be Kyber crystals. :lol:

There's nothing implausible about the idea that future science might discover or synthesize new materials we don't know about yet. Setting a story in the future but limiting it only to phenomena we know of today is the opposite of plausibility.

It's only implausible when you do it in a way that contradicts what we already know. A recurring mistake is postulating that alien bodies or technologies are made of elements not found on Earth's periodic table. This is nonsense because the stars and planets of the galaxy all formed out of the same clouds of gas and dust, and the elements forged in stellar cores and supernovae and the like have been spread throughout the galaxy and intermixed and incorporated into new stars and planets. There might be new stable transuranic elements formed in some younger star systems, but they'd probably be too heavy and radioactive to be useful in forming living bodies or spaceship hulls or whatever.

It gets even dumber in something like Captain Marvel where they say that Skrulls that have lived on Earth for decades are made entirely of unearthly elements. How can they survive on our food, air, and water, then? And if an organism has been living on Earth for years, eating and metabolizing our food, then most of its body would be made of Earthly materials by now, except maybe for the minerals in its bones and teeth.
 
Christopher said:
Heck, by the standards of 1960s-80s sci-fi TV, even acknowledging that you would needa faster-than-light drive to reach alien star systems, rather than simply using a rocket or drifting on a rogue Moon, was above-average science literacy.
And this problem persists into the modern day. A 2020 The Mandalorian episode somehow had a ship traveling around between multiple star systems without its faster-than-light drive. Guardians of the Galaxy didn't bother to explain how its characters were traveling around the galaxy until its second film. Firefly didn't even attempt to address the issue until Serenity.
 
In general, I have no problems with things that fly against our current understanding of science. It is after all just a story, and the science serves mainly as window dressing.

However, I do care about whether people apparently have done their homework. A few pages ago, the example of US military uniforms was mentioned. So suppose you have a story that supposedly plays in that setting (the real world US army). If, in that example, the series or movie gets the uniforms wrong, that could annoy me. Not because I care about those details myself, but if they can't be bothered to even do 10 minutes of Google checking on basic facts to see how those uniforms should look, why would they expect me to bother watching their stuff?

Same for fantastical elements in science fiction series and movies. Counterfactual? No problem, when they serve up some background that at least makes it semi-convincing ('warp works because there's a way to bend space around the ship in such a way that even though local velocities never exceed the speed of light, to an outside observer the result is that the ship arrives faster at its destination than a light beam would have' sounds better than 'warp drive works because of logarithms'). Getting the impression that the writers really were too lazy to come up with even a remotely reasonable sounding explanation? That will bother me. Unless the movie is clearly intended as a parody or some such thing.
 
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However, I do care about whether people apparently have done their homework. A few pages ago, the example of US military uniforms was mentioned. So suppose you have a story that supposedly plays in that setting (the real world US army). If, in that example, the series or movie gets the uniforms wrong, that could annoy me. Not because I care about those details myself, but if they can't be bothered to even do 10 minutes of Google checking on basic facts to see how those uniforms should look, why would they expect me to bother watching their stuff?

Most of the time that inaccuracy is there for a reason, ie the military hasn't given them permission to actually use the uniforms in question, and so designers have to come up with a reasonable facsimile that doesn't infringe. It's also an image thing, where if the military is portrayed in a bad light in a movie, it doesn't end up reflecting back on the real military.
 
So, where is the threshold between science fiction and science fantasy? It's been said Star Wars is fantasy. It's also been said that telepathy is fantasy, yet it's been pointed out there is some leeway, some malleability where a story can have telepathy and still be pretty hard core science.
 
So, where is the threshold between science fiction and science fantasy? It's been said Star Wars is fantasy. It's also been said that telepathy is fantasy, yet it's been pointed out there is some leeway, some malleability where a story can have telepathy and still be pretty hard core science.
I think telepathy might eliminate "hard core science", at least about the telepathy.

As for "science fantasy", I'd say it's when fantasy elements and tropes are placed in a more science fiction environment. (you know, space. ;) )
 
So, where is the threshold between science fiction and science fantasy? It's been said Star Wars is fantasy. It's also been said that telepathy is fantasy, yet it's been pointed out there is some leeway, some malleability where a story can have telepathy and still be pretty hard core science.

Genres are ingredients, not walled camps, so they can overlap a great deal. You can't really draw a line and say where one ends; it's more of a gradual transition. Science fiction can incorporate loose or fanciful ideas as poetic license while still qualifying as SF overall. I'd say it's a question of the proportion of credible ideas vs. handwaves.

When it comes to telepathy, I'm willing to be flexible up to a point, because it used to be sincerely believed that there might be something to it, and there were experiments that appeared to be evidence of psychic phenomena before it was understood that the "evidence" was the result of fraud or bad experimental design. A lot of older science fiction is based on scientific models or assumptions that have since been debunked, but were not intended as fantasy at the time.

And yes, Star Wars is "space fantasy," in George Lucas's own words. I'd put it in the "sword-and-planet" genre like John Carter of Mars or Flash Gordon. It's also space opera in the classic sense -- larger-than-life, fanciful, fairly lowbrow space adventure involving grand battles of good and evil -- although that term has come to be applied more widely to space adventures in general.
 
And yes, Star Wars is "space fantasy," in George Lucas's own words. I'd put it in the "sword-and-planet" genre like John Carter of Mars or Flash Gordon. It's also space opera in the classic sense -- larger-than-life, fanciful, fairly lowbrow space adventure involving grand battles of good and evil -- although that term has come to be applied more widely to space adventures in general.

That's a huge reason why I tended to not like alot of the former Expanded Universe now Legends. Too many of those stories took the Fairy Tale Star Wars and turned it into like, military sci-fi.
 
As an aside to the uniform thing, and a bit of a different thing. For a few years, Disney was in charge of the marketing and licensing of Canada's RCMP, from what I understand because they didn't have a way to handle it themselves and knew Disney was an expert at IP Management, after the RCMP being fed up with decades of misuse. If anyone wanted to use the Mountie image, they had to go through Disney, which in turn allowed Disney to make a lot of their own products using the image, ie Mickey Mouse in a Mountie uniform, etc. The downside of one such arrangement, as you can probably see, is that you have a megacorp controlling the IP of a police force. And there was controversy that the deal hadn't gone to a Canadian company, and the deal wasn't renewed after that. I point this out because I think it also reflects on the image thing I pointed above, and why it's best afterall to use fascimiles rather than screen-accurate versions.
 
Suspension of disbelief only goes so far and does affect my enjoyment of a program, or at least causes me to not take the show seriously.

We watch a lot of police and medical and legal procedurals. Some are better than others. ER was awesome and I didn't mind their fudging times for sake of drama as the show typically sped up the time it takes to get test results.

On the other hand, the NCIS franchise plays fast and loose with travel times. Characters fly across the globe, fight criminals, and return to HQ with the dust and grime from the opposite hemisphere still on their clothes or leave their unbroken bones untreated for what would likely be a 16+ hour flight. And let's not mention McGee and Abby both typing on the same keyboard at the same time trying to fight a hacker.

But I can stand NCIS a whole lot more than CSI where the crime scene investigators also carry guns, interrogate suspects, and make arrests. The science in this reality grounded show is far fetched in a normal episode, and goes into fantasy when they touch on real speculative science like space travel, AI, or something cutting edge.

To bring this back on topic, I don't know why the fantasy of Star Wars doesn't bother me. I enjoyed Space 1999 and TOS BSG despite rolling my eyes when they confused planets, solar systems, galaxies, and universes. But I didn't feel as grounded in those series as 8 did Star Trek. The harder the effort for accuracy, the greater my involvement.

But I'm not an astrophysicist or microbiologist so any errors in orbital mechanics or other sciences weren't always caught. Even obvious lapses of reality like the Enterprise moving at the speed of plot in TUC went unnoticed on the initial (few) viewings.

But if I didn't like the movie from the start (ST09, STID), then those lapses were large and glaring.
 
On the other hand, the NCIS franchise plays fast and loose with travel times. Characters fly across the globe, fight criminals, and return to HQ with the dust and grime from the opposite hemisphere still on their clothes or leave their unbroken bones untreated for what would likely be a 16+ hour flight. And let's not mention McGee and Abby both typing on the same keyboard at the same time trying to fight a hacker.

But I can stand NCIS a whole lot more than CSI where the crime scene investigators also carry guns, interrogate suspects, and make arrests. The science in this reality grounded show is far fetched in a normal episode, and goes into fantasy when they touch on real speculative science like space travel, AI, or something cutting edge.
I've noticed that a lot of shows which follow people in a specialized field within the police or an organization like that, tend to have their characters lead the whole investigation, even when the only play a tiny part in reality, Crossing Jordan focused on MEs, but they did the same thing, and had them involved in the whole investigation, but as far as I know in reality they just do the autopsy and that's it.
 
I've noticed that a lot of shows which follow people in a specialized field within the police or an organization like that, tend to have their characters lead the whole investigation, even when the only play a tiny part in reality, Crossing Jordan focused on MEs, but they did the same thing, and had them involved in the whole investigation, but as far as I know in reality they just do the autopsy and that's it.

Much the same went for Jack Klugman's Quincy M.E., though I think the regular cop character got annoyed at Quincy always butting into the police investigations.

In reality, it's a massive conflict of interest for forensic scientists to get involved in the investigations and arrests, because then they can't be objective about what they're studying and their results may be biased, which a defense attorney could use to cast doubt on their findings (and which is simply wrong from a scientific perspective).

I dunno, though, I still think a medical examiner or crime-scene tech getting too involved in the investigation is a less implausible murder-mystery trope than the detective constantly stumbling into murders by coincidence wherever they go, a la Miss Marple or her spiritual descendant Jessica Fletcher, or Hercule Poirot whenever he went on vacation. I've just begun watching Rian Johnson's Poker Face TV series, which is well-done, but it embraces that trope like crazy, because the protagonist isn't a detective at all but just keeps happening to get involved with people who get murdered shortly thereafter. It's basically Columbo crossed with The Fugitive.
 
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