Without the United States in the League of Nations, the governing body was far less effective at fulfilling its mandate as a entity in resolving border and territorial disputes.
The Earth - Romulan War (non-canon)
- Thread starter Rahul
- Start date
I know that in DC comics first Star Trek run, "The Mirror Universe Saga", it was revealed that the Romulans had reached and conquered Earth and enslaved its population for a generation before humans were able to rise up and overthrow the Romulans.
The surviving humans vowed never to be conquered again and set about conquering their nearby neighbors, creating the Terran Empire.
It was stated in Enterprise that faster engines were available for freighters, it was simply a matter of if they wanted/could afford them.
IIRC, even the fastest engines stated as being available to civilians are a lot slower than the NX-classes Warp 5 engine though.
Yup, Warp 3 is the "top of the line" and most J and Y-class freighters had engines rated for between Warp 1.8 and Warp 2.
Yup, Warp 3 is the "top of the line" and most J and Y-class freighters had engines rated for between Warp 1.8 and Warp 2.
In theory, yeah. But whether it would be feasible to do so in practice, particularly as the combat ships that are actually designed to be able to go that fast are also going to be competing with upgrade requests at the same time.
If we still are going by Spock's description in "Balance of Terror," is it conceivable that it wasn't exactly mass produced starships, but possibly Earth mined the hell out of star systems with nuclear weapons (or nuclear/anti-matter based weapons)?
First contact with the Romulans involves the NX-01 getting caught in a cloaked minefield. Is it possible United Earth responded in kind? Basically, practiced strategic area denial. The Romulans are presumably the aggressors trying to conquer territory. Where United Earth and the coalition that eventually becomes the Federation has a strategy of just repelling borders and picking their moments to go on the offensive.
If you mine an area to force the Romulans into specific paths for their invasion forces, in theory you can bottleneck their forces into specific paths and actions in taking star systems (e.g., being forced to mass their forces in trying to clear minefields around whatever planet they're trying to take). That can act as a force multiplier (e.g., one of the most famous in our own history, think the "300" Spartans holding a massive Persian force at bay by denying passage down a path at Thermopylae). While the Romulans are stuck trying to clear the mines around a planet and through a star system, United Earth performs "cavalry raids" (as Martok would put it) with what ships they have to keep the Romulans off balance .
Extensive use of mines would also explain why the forces never "saw" each other too. It was a conflict of denying the other side space through mining, and any side that tried to test their luck got their ships nuked and vaporized, presumably leaving not much to be found in terms of bodies.
First contact with the Romulans involves the NX-01 getting caught in a cloaked minefield. Is it possible United Earth responded in kind? Basically, practiced strategic area denial. The Romulans are presumably the aggressors trying to conquer territory. Where United Earth and the coalition that eventually becomes the Federation has a strategy of just repelling borders and picking their moments to go on the offensive.
If you mine an area to force the Romulans into specific paths for their invasion forces, in theory you can bottleneck their forces into specific paths and actions in taking star systems (e.g., being forced to mass their forces in trying to clear minefields around whatever planet they're trying to take). That can act as a force multiplier (e.g., one of the most famous in our own history, think the "300" Spartans holding a massive Persian force at bay by denying passage down a path at Thermopylae). While the Romulans are stuck trying to clear the mines around a planet and through a star system, United Earth performs "cavalry raids" (as Martok would put it) with what ships they have to keep the Romulans off balance .
Extensive use of mines would also explain why the forces never "saw" each other too. It was a conflict of denying the other side space through mining, and any side that tried to test their luck got their ships nuked and vaporized, presumably leaving not much to be found in terms of bodies.
Available is one thing. How many? On what scale?
Sure, i'm sure a random Y-Class could get a Warp 2.5 drive installed... they just need to get back to Earth and go in for a year-long refit.
In the event of war, sure... they want to do this, but again they can't just waive their hands and make them appear.
It took 1 year to build an NX. Less, Probsbly, during war time.
During the second World War, The US Navy had 800 warships, and over 7000 support ships.
If Earth's battle fleet is advancing at triple digits FTL, the support fleet can't be moving at single digits.
Doubtful only a single ship design. There would be scouts, destroyers, cruisers, maybe carriers. Also support ships of various sorts.
No, it would be a case of planning and engineering, if a freighter can't be modified, then that ship largely wouldn't be of use. If Earth can cut away the older equipment, then new engines, new reactors, new structural containment fields, good. And yes there would be completely new cargo ships as well.
That's not really true. NX-02 was already in development when NX-01 launched.
I'll repost something I post elsewhere.
Take it with a grain of truth, its a lot of words for what I now realize doesn't say much XD XD.
So NX Production - decided to peruse the wiki.
1. Enterprise - Unknown start. Likely post-2145 since the NX prototypes didn't break Warp 3 till then. Launched April 12, 2151. Launched 3 weeks early.
2. Columbia. Unknown start, half-way built by by March 2153. Completed June 2154. Delayed until November 2154.
3. Challenger. Unknown start, half-way built by May 22, 2155. Completed August 2155.
4. Discovery. Unknown start date. Completed August 2155.
5. Atlantis. Unknown start, half-way built by by 2155. Completed by late February 2156.
6. Endeavor. Unknowns start. Completed by June 2, 2156.
7. Intrepid. Unknown start. Completed by 2159.
The NX-01 can be said to be the testbed for the future NX's. Its successes led to the start of the NX-02, 03, and 04 by 2153. The Columbia mostly likely started in 2152.
Atlantis and Endeavour were probably started post-Xindi Crisis 2153-4 and Intrepid was the last NX to be built while production was shifting to Daedalus'.
But! NX successor Columbia-class had a faster build time with 4 of them being built within a year's time. Noice.
The loveable Intrepid was apparently a backup incase the NX failed, but went on to a long and illustrious career. The Intrepid itself was completed by 2153 so it probably started same time as the NX or after its completion since it reused many of the same components.
By April 24, 2153, at least 1 Intrepid and 2 Ganges/Warp Delta's were completed and combat ready. At least 2 other warp ships - reused CGI Steamrnners - also existed. Can probably
By 2154, with Enterprise returning, after ending the Xindi Crisis, defeating the Sphere Builders, and closing the 22nd century Temporal Cold War Front, at least 3-6 Intrepid's and 3 Ganges' were ready to defend Earth.
Modern day example, a US Navy destroyer will be in development for three years before construction begins. Some systems need to be ordered long before the keel is laid down and construction begins.
Development isn't construction.
It’s also possible that using the NX-01’s and NX-02’s construction times as a model would be misleading in an emergency scenario where United Earth diverted resources to bang out ships as fast as possible.
If we’re going with similarities to real world naval construction, fhe Enterprise and Columbia are ostensibly prototypes and testbeds. The lessons learned putting them together would be used to streamline the process to where Starfleet could crank out NX starships at a faster rate, and getting them space worthy would be the priority and tweaking any systems during shakedown could be achieved after the fact.
For example, the Essex Class aircraft carrier during World War II. The US Navy was able to significantly chop the construction time from the early ships of the class to the later ones.
If we’re going with similarities to real world naval construction, fhe Enterprise and Columbia are ostensibly prototypes and testbeds. The lessons learned putting them together would be used to streamline the process to where Starfleet could crank out NX starships at a faster rate, and getting them space worthy would be the priority and tweaking any systems during shakedown could be achieved after the fact.
For example, the Essex Class aircraft carrier during World War II. The US Navy was able to significantly chop the construction time from the early ships of the class to the later ones.
Using this as kind of a catch-all reply.
Yes... that all could totally be true.
A big part of my proposal for having less NX's is crew. They might well be able to start banging out NX-Class ships, but those ships are incredibly sophisticated and require specially trained crews to handle them. There would only be so many of them available.
Part of my argument for a spammed Daedalus fleet would focus around them being easy to operate with only a small number of crew that could be trained quickly. I have the idea of the Daedalus being a particularly unsophisticated vessel. Its warp drive, while not as fast as the NX, is fast enough and doesn't require all that much tender love and care to keep it going. (the idea being that it's closer to the more ubiquitous low-warp drives that are prevalent, just tweaked to get them going faster).
The NX-Class would outperform the Daedalus in every way, but even if they can build them more quickly, they're still incredibly complex and expensive. I really think it boils down to a numbers game... you can have less really good ships, or many more... adequate ships.
That coupled with the fact that the Coalition realizes early on that the Romulans have some particularly low-end ships on their end, it's not really worth the investment to spam out NX's. The T'Varo is a match for the NX, but the Romulans aren't fielding fleets of them. The bulk of their forces are "Balance of Terror"-style ships... a Deadalus is perfectly fine taking on them.
Some of this hinges on how I think the war happened, which I compare to "trench warfare in space". The two sides basically had a battle line, and they would try to break through the line periodically. Given the nature of the war, vessels you can spam out to fill holes were better strategically than more powerful individual platforms.
I give a nod to some thinking the Daedalus was a joint effort between different races... in my version it's partially true. Earth was mass producing them, but they were also mass producing parts for them. The design was so fairly simplistic that other races facilities could easily be retooled to also produce them. They were the very first "kitbash" or Frankestein ships... you might have Vulcans churning them out with whatever they had on hand. They're mostly Earth-design, but they had some extra shield generators, so a run of theirs got Vulcan shields.
EDIT -
Also the Daedalus wouldn't be the only ship being produced, just the most prevalent.
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This thread reminds me of my own creations I made years ago, right after the 2009 movie came out. It started as an effort to show 22nd century ships evolve into something similar to the USS Kelvin, but it eventually turned into my own ideas for Starships of the Romulan War.
I started with a class of ship that was supposed to basically be a NX Class, but be a simpler, easier, and cheaper to mass produce.
From there came a Light Cruiser, that was a further stripped down NX knockoff.
Followed by an Interceptor. Pretty much a Warp 5 engine with guns, designed to intercept Romulans before they could reach their targets. I definitely took inspiration from a Y-Wing.
Next was a little Systems Defense Ship. Not designed for deep space, but meant to be attached to a planet or Starbase.
And finally, a "Maquis" Raider. I've always liked the idea I came up with that the Raider design was very old and left over from the Romulan War. I've never cared much for the idea of Starfighters in Trek, so this would've been about as small as an Earth ships got. It would've been used as a patrol/convoy escort. Earth Freighters would carry these craft attached to their undercarriage, perhaps 3 to a ship. Should a convoy find themselves under attack, the ships would deploy and defend the convoy, freeing up the larger, more powerful Starships for other wartime duties.
I started with a class of ship that was supposed to basically be a NX Class, but be a simpler, easier, and cheaper to mass produce.
From there came a Light Cruiser, that was a further stripped down NX knockoff.
Followed by an Interceptor. Pretty much a Warp 5 engine with guns, designed to intercept Romulans before they could reach their targets. I definitely took inspiration from a Y-Wing.
Next was a little Systems Defense Ship. Not designed for deep space, but meant to be attached to a planet or Starbase.
And finally, a "Maquis" Raider. I've always liked the idea I came up with that the Raider design was very old and left over from the Romulan War. I've never cared much for the idea of Starfighters in Trek, so this would've been about as small as an Earth ships got. It would've been used as a patrol/convoy escort. Earth Freighters would carry these craft attached to their undercarriage, perhaps 3 to a ship. Should a convoy find themselves under attack, the ships would deploy and defend the convoy, freeing up the larger, more powerful Starships for other wartime duties.
Broadly speaking I agree, though I'd offer runabouts or the Delta Flyer-type as something smaller that could have combat roles though not necessarily an anti-starship role certainly not against the big cruisers and above.
Yeah, I've got nothing against smaller support craft. It's a hundred years after the Romulan War, but we know Starfleet use smaller Runabout type ships during wartime.
I like the idea of arming the NX Alpha's with missiles. Have them be intrasystem warp .5/1 quick responders, unload a few missiles, then retreat. Like a skirmishing line to try and break up an enemy formation so the defense/attack force can take advantage of that.
My reimagined Daedalus was basically a space carrier, the secondary/main hull was all cargo/fighter bay.
My reimagined Daedalus was basically a space carrier, the secondary/main hull was all cargo/fighter bay.
I went with "stuffed full of nuclear missiles". My Daedalus is a glorified torpedo boat.
I do like the idea of a mix of ships though, both new and potentially repurposed older designs. Things like the NX-Alpha with missiles strapped to it. The old Legacy game had ships that were essentially the Conestoga-Class that had been hastily refit for war.
I like the idea of a mix of utilizing older designs that can be pumped out while still trying to get things like NX's and newly developed designs out as well.
Trek is in a somewhat odd spot for that. I think fighters and the like could be effective. We never really get a real comparison of how shields and weapons differ between larger and smaller craft.
