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This is not canon. For all we know there are more families onboard starships now than ever. And there might have been for a while before the Galaxy Class given those on the Miranda Class Saratoga.
But once DS9 & the Dominion War came around, I'm sure the ideas of sticking Families on StarShips were a bad idea, and we haven't seen it since, even up to ST;PIC or further down the time line.
StarBases over a populated Planet are a whole different thing, that makes more sense to have families there where it's easier to evacuate them in an emergency.
Frankly, I like the idea. It’s something to aspire toward, not ever the cheese of Napoleaonic sea battles. Those are swell, but they don’t dazzle the imagination or inspire the spirit. Real space is exactly that: empty. Let’s pray we go out to explore on ships like the E-D, not something out of the Alien universe. Blech.
I agree with the Enterprise-D, it's my preferred Enterprise and the luxury it presents is "VERY NICE!".
Who said anything about the Alien Universe? I don't even know where you got that idea?
I would hope so, that should be "Basic Security" as to who is let on base.
Usually everybody should be related to somebody stationed on board.
Even the Civilian Residents who live with their families would effectively be living behind a "Gated Community" where access is "Invite Only".
In my 26th Century Head Canon, All UFP Planets with a Significant Population (Population Count must be ≥ 7-Digits) have Planetary Shield Grids as Standard.
Every Major Lagrange Point on every Major Planetoid orbiting the local Star in Every UFP Controlled Star System has a StarBase of some form.
The Star System has a large Satellite Defense Grid & Sensor Net that orbits each Star Systems local Termination Shock Zone.
One lucky nova bomb on a cloaked ship, and it’s all over. I imagine there are sensor nets and prescribed routes with various levels of scanning to get into the most sensitive dock inside the station.
…that said, I wonder if there isn’t an internal deflector grid along side the interior. If you open all the doors (especially that huge fanning floor under the entire docking area) that could mitigate a lot of the blast.
Yup, internal Deflectors incase there are Explosions from the inside of any sort or "Weapons Fire".
There will be dedicated Entrance/Egress Corridors on each side/slice of the Docking Bay pie that is very controlled.
Lots of Sensors to scan ships as they pass in and make sure nothing that should come in, gets brought in.
Remember DS9?
The Starfleet contingent there was far smaller compared to the general population.
The total population of DS9 was around 2,000 people. Of this, SF personnel numbered in a few hundred at most.
But once DS9 & the Dominion War came around, I'm sure the ideas of sticking Families on StarShips were a bad idea, and we haven't seen it since, even up to ST;PIC or further down the time line.
During the war, no, but there's no reason to think it didn't start up again after, just like they continued their exploration programs after. Heck, there could have been families even during the war on the far end of Federation space, far from the battle lines.
I would hope so, that should be "Basic Security" as to who is let on base.
Usually everybody should be related to somebody stationed on board.
Even the Civilian Residents who live with their families would effectively be living behind a "Gated Community" where access is "Invite Only".
Yeah, it just makes sense given Starfleet's dual nature. They're a definite target.
And, again, given the level of technology we've seen in the franchise, they can't just let any ship approach any planet, any system, without protocols. Especially not a capital.
In my head canon it's generally agreed upon between interstellar powers that any battles that they do fight are between fleets in open space, not near planets/stars, which are vulnerable. You don't want to nuke territory you want to occupy after all. Of course, given that aliens are unpredictable (as are circumstances), and given exotic techs like cloaks, you throw up tachyon sensor nets, planetary shields. and fortresses like spacedock to be sure.
Yeah, I imagine them passing through rings of sensor buoys along prescribed paths. Maybe they have to give over navigational controls to spacedock control as they make their approach. Any deviation, and local law enforcement, or the fleet, takes action.
During the war, no, but there's no reason to think it didn't start up again after, just like they continued their exploration programs after. Heck, there could have been families even during the war on the far end of Federation space, far from the battle lines.
And, again, given the level of technology we've seen in the franchise, they can't just let any ship approach any planet, any system, without protocols. Especially not a capital.
That's why you have the equivalent of a Nation State's Coast Guard or in my case, the Local "PSG (Planetary Systems Guard)" which falls under one of the many Service Branches within the UFP, just like StarFleet.
Each Occupied Star/Planetary Systems with a significant population will get their own equivalent local to that Star System / Planetary System.
They'll deal with local issues and handle Dominion over Traffic Control within the Star System and around it with long range / Far From Home duties handled off to StarFleet to solve.
In my head canon it's generally agreed upon between interstellar powers that any battles that they do fight are between fleets in open space, not near planets/stars, which are vulnerable.
You know how well most of those "Paper Treaties" are worth, why else would we have Saudi Arabia on the Human Rights Council in the UN.
It's farcical at best, and a joke at worst.
It's best to operate how you expect to be treated. I'm sure the UFP will do what's best on their end to be as Moral/Ethical as possible when it comes to war, but no gurantees from the other side.
You don't want to nuke territory you want to occupy after all. Of course, given that aliens are unpredictable (as are circumstances), and given exotic techs like cloaks, you throw up tachyon sensor nets, planetary shields. and fortresses like spacedock to be sure.
That's why we have ALOT of StarBases within each Star System for "Redundancy".
Think about how many Spots for StarBase parking you can have between all Planetoids within each Star System and their Star + Planet or Planet + Moon (Of Significant Size & Mass).
That's 5x Lagrange Points alone for each Star X Planet Combo.
That's 8x5 = 40 for the "Major Planets"
Sol x Mercury
Sol x Venus
Sol x Earth <- The Most Popular Lagrange Points for Obvious Reasons
Sol x Mars
Sol x Jupiter
Sol x Saturn
Sol x Uranus
Sol x Neptune
This is not even counting all the potential Dwarf Planets.
Or counting any Planet x Moon combo.
Most Aircraft Carriers have their Hanger Decks Sectioned off as well incase of detonation of anything inside.
You design around the "Worst Case Scenarios" as much as possible.
When you have as many StarBases / Fleets / Fighters / Drones just buzzing around each Star System within the UFP, it'll be like rattling the Hornets Nest if you do something bad.
No more Borg Cube waltzing through Sol like the past.
Earth has learned their lesson after getting near assimilated by a Borg Cube, Surprised Attacked @ StarFleet HQ in SF, surprised by Borg Sphere, & had Synths Rebel at Mars.
They take Security SERIOUSLY now.
No more "Funny Business".
There is one of several concepts I really liked about the tech that ST: DISCOVERY had implemented.
1) StarBases that can move on their own Warp Power, that just makes sense given that you won't have time in an emergency of a Star-System wide attack like a Super Nova occurs.
2) Implementing some form of Distortion Field to protect your StarBase like they did with StarFleet HQ.
I love those ideas.
Why? Space is vast. Look at a map of the Trek universe from Star Trek: Star Charts. If you're on the far end of Klingon or Romulan space, or down past Betelgeuse or Mintaka, or beyond in deep space, you're nowhere near any fighting. Until (or if) your ship is rotated in the fighting, that's when things change.
You know how well most of those "Paper Treaties" are worth, why else would we have Saudi Arabia on the Human Rights Council in the UN.
It's farcical at best, and a joke at worst.
It's not, and every little bit helps. European powers fought with one another in specific ways in centuries past. Until that changed, it worked. Today we haven't used nuclear weapons despite being able. All that can change, and you prepare for the worst, but efforts have been helpful. The longer powers can negotiate and trade and become interdependent on one another -- and the more they understand the consequences of actions either side take -- the less likely for indiscriminate war.
It's best to operate how you expect to be treated. I'm sure the UFP will do what's best on their end to be as Moral/Ethical as possible when it comes to war, but no gurantees from the other side.
I'm an American, and we're supposed to be the good guys, yet there are no guarantees from my side either. Best not to demonize the other side for our own ease of thought.
Yeah, it's not even redundancy. You just have a lot of prime real estate near/in a capital system. I'm sure there are lots of huge orbital habitats over planets and moons and asteroids, and just plain huge self-sufficient cities in the empty space between. Not everyone may be drawn to natural environments. Some artificial ones may be quite alluring.
Well, it didn't waltz, it just destroyed everything in its path. We may (or may not) be more ready for them "now," but Q's point in "Q, Who" is that we can never be ready for everything out there.
Why? Space is vast. Look at a map of the Trek universe from Star Trek: Star Charts. If you're on the far end of Klingon or Romulan space, or down past Betelgeuse or Mintaka, or beyond in deep space, you're nowhere near any fighting. Until (or if) your ship is rotated in the fighting, that's when things change.
How many times have StarFleet encountered random Hostile Alien or ended up in a Fire Fight with random new alien while exploring?
Would you really want your family members on board the same ship as you while you're exploring the strange unknown?
Imagine if something happened to one of your loved ones that could've been avoided by having them safely living planet side or in a StarBase near a Major Populated Planet.
It's not, and every little bit helps. European powers fought with one another in specific ways in centuries past. Until that changed, it worked. Today we haven't used nuclear weapons despite being able. All that can change, and you prepare for the worst, but efforts have been helpful. The longer powers can negotiate and trade and become interdependent on one another -- and the more they understand the consequences of actions either side take -- the less likely for indiscriminate war.
I'm an American, and we're supposed to be the good guys, yet there are no guarantees from my side either. Best not to demonize the other side for our own ease of thought.
I'm also a American as well, but no matter what happens on paper, the other side can just as easily ignore it when it suits them.
But enough of delving into IRL politics, that's not what this thread is for.
Yeah, it's not even redundancy. You just have a lot of prime real estate near/in a capital system. I'm sure there are lots of huge orbital habitats over planets and moons and asteroids, and just plain huge self-sufficient cities in the empty space between. Not everyone may be drawn to natural environments. Some artificial ones may be quite alluring.
Well, it didn't waltz, it just destroyed everything in its path. We may (or may not) be more ready for them "now," but Q's point in "Q, Who" is that we can never be ready for everything out there.
But the bigger point was that Humanity has become "Too Arrogant" and not "Ready Enough", it took a encounter with "The Borg" to toughen them up along with several encounters with tough aliens to get Humanity off it's complacent high horse.
Imagine if something happened to one of your loved ones that could've been avoided by having them safely living planet side or in a StarBase near a Major Populated Planet.
I’m not leaving my family for 5-20 years. Also I live outside a huge city with a large naval base; if the bombs start drilling, I and most of the people I love are toast. Still, one carries on.
But the bigger point was that Humanity has become "Too Arrogant" and not "Ready Enough", it took a encounter with "The Borg" to toughen them up along with several encounters with tough aliens to get Humanity off it's complacent high horse.
This is folly. There is no absolute security. There is always someone stronger out there, and there is no preparing fast or fully enough for it. Life is a crapshoot. You just do the best you can as you go along.
Nobody expects you to leave them for that long.
Deployments should be optimized into (24-month | 2 Year) chunks post 24th century according to my ODFERP (Optimized Dynamic Fleet Engagement & Response Plan) Scheduling plans.
Operational Phases for a StarShip:
- Maintenance and/or Repairs: 01-08 months
- Ship ShakeDown / Training: 04-08 months
- Travel time & Deployment @: 08-19 months
Also I live outside a huge city with a large naval base; if the bombs start drilling, I and most of the people I love are toast. Still, one carries on.
This is folly. There is no absolute security. There is always someone stronger out there, and there is no preparing fast or fully enough for it. Life is a crapshoot. You just do the best you can as you go along.
Nobody stated there is "Absolute Security". And StarFleet wasn't doing it's best, that's why Q came along to give Humanity a swift kick in the crotch a few times to wake them up.
StarFleet was very "Complacent" when they encountered the First Borg Cube. We saw how bad the results of "The Battle of Wolf 359" turned out.
StarFleet had 40 Ships vs 1 Borg Cube. That resulted in 39 Ships Destroyed; 11,000 people Killed or Assimilated into the Collective.
Look how much better StarFleet did in the short few years after when it encountered the 2nd Borg Cube near Earth in ST: First Contact.
It was a FAR better result then the first time around, the StarFleet Task Force at least managed to Destroy the Cube & stall it's progress for quite a while until the Enterprise-E came into be "Big Damn Heroes".
Sure they do. It was a 5-year mission in TOS, Captain Harry Kim was away for 4 years in “Endgame,” and the Galaxy Class was supposed to go out for 20. I like to think many of them did.
It wouldn’t have mattered if they were the Galactic Empire. The point of the episode is that there’s always something bigger out there than you’re ready for. You don’t get ready for it by destroying yourself. (I highly recommend The Three-Body Problem toward this point btw.) Might as well get rid of the Bill of Rights because we haven’t conquered the galaxy yet.
That was them rising to an occasion. We did it when the Russians beat us to space, too. But it wasn’t worth keeping it up at the time. The families stayed long after 359, and fingers-crossed they’re still there.
It was a FAR better result then the first time around, the StarFleet Task Force at least managed to Destroy the Cube & stall it's progress for quite a while until the Enterprise-E came into be "Big Damn Heroes".
Sure they do. It was a 5-year mission in TOS, Captain Harry Kim was away for 4 years in “Endgame,” and the Galaxy Class was supposed to go out for 20. I like to think many of them did.
Given more Advanced FTL drives post QSS (Quantum Slip-Stream), they can get home faster and don't need to be gone for further amounts of time.
Especially given the precedence that a ship could get lost mysteriously like the USS Voyager.
It wouldn’t have mattered if they were the Galactic Empire. The point of the episode is that there’s always something bigger out there than you’re ready for. You don’t get ready for it by destroying yourself. (I highly recommend The Three-Body Problem toward this point btw.) Might as well get rid of the Bill of Rights because we haven’t conquered the galaxy yet.
That was them rising to an occasion. We did it when the Russians beat us to space, too. But it wasn’t worth keeping it up at the time. The families stayed long after 359, and fingers-crossed they’re still there.
EnterpriseWe know the universe of dangerous situations the 1701 faced, and how many crewmembers were lost either on-screen, or referred to in the scripts. Intrepid: all crewmembers lost to the cellular entity. Constellation: 429 crewmembers killed while stranded on a planet, with Commodore Decker committing a suicide run into the Planet Killer. Exeter: 429 crew members lost--reduced to crystal material by an agent in Omega IV's atmosphere. The lone survivor--Captain Tracey is arrested for violations of the Prime Directive. Lexington: 53 of her crew killed as a result of the M-5's attack using Enterprise's Phasers. Excalibur: All 430 cremembers killed as a result of the M-5's attack. Hood: damaged by the M-5's attacks. Potemkin: damaged by the M-5's attacks. Valiant: all 430 crewmembers strongly implied to have lost their lives on the orders of the ruling council of Eminiar VII. Defiant: all 430 crewmembers killed each other after suffering from the psychological effects from the interphasic rift.
Most of the Constitution class Starships suffered horrifying losses during the period covered by TOS, and that's not even counting other lost ships referred to in its history (e.g., the S.S. Valiant which was destroyed by her own captain, as uncovered in "Where No Man Has Gone Before") or lost ships identified in TAS' "The Time Trap" (e.g., the Bonaventure, which vanished into the alternate universe called Elysia). The TOS was an extremely lethal period of space exploration.
Nah, take a look at the Chinese space station vs. the ISS. Sleeker, more livable is the future, not sci-fi horror. True function over form.
The Tiangong station simply appears more livable, but its just as packed with equipment as the ISS, and that's the point: Alien's Nostromo--decades ago--forecast a more advanced ship, but would sill be cramped with few exceptions (see the flight deck, dining and engineering areas). The Tiangong's interior only seems more livable because of its white interior (a conscious decision to suggest a less claustrophobia-inducing experience), but its future does not suggest that carpeted, wood paneled Love Boat design of TNG's E-D, but closer to the Nostromo.
EnterpriseWe know the universe of dangerous situations the 1701 faced, and how many crewmembers were lost either on-screen, or referred to in the scripts. Intrepid: all crewmembers lost to the cellular entity. Constellation: 429 crewmembers killed while stranded on a planet, with Commodore Decker committing a suicide run into the Planet Killer. Exeter: 429 crew members lost--reduced to crystal material by an agent in Omega IV's atmosphere. The lone survivor--Captain Tracey is arrested for violations of the Prime Directive. Lexington: 53 of her crew killed as a result of the M-5's attack using Enterprise's Phasers. Excalibur: All 430 cremembers killed as a result of the M-5's attack. Hood: damaged by the M-5's attacks. Potemkin: damaged by the M-5's attacks. Valiant: all 430 crewmembers strongly implied to have lost their lives on the orders of the ruling council of Eminiar VII. Defiant: all 430 crewmembers killed each other after suffering from the psychological effects from the interphasic rift.
Most of the Constitution class Starships suffered horrifying losses during the period covered by TOS, and that's not even counting other lost ships referred to in its history (e.g., the S.S. Valiant which was destroyed by her own captain, as uncovered in "Where No Man Has Gone Before") or lost ships identified in TAS' "The Time Trap" (e.g., the Bonaventure, which vanished into the alternate universe called Elysia). The TOS was an extremely lethal period of space exploration.
The Tiangong's interior only seems more livable because of its white interior (a conscious decision to suggest a less claustrophobia-inducing experience),
My TOS/TAS example answered that with the fact that era of space exploration was incredibly dangerous with several crews never returning from their missions due to numerous kinds of threats. I'd say most would consider mass death on that scale to send the meter wayyyy past "crazy shit" and into the red zone of "if you join Starfleet, in all likelihood, you will die a gruesome death in the Final Frontier".
It suggests a more comfortable, livable future. Whether it matches what you deem a “Love Boat” esthetic is yet to be seen.
My TOS/TAS example answered that with the fact that era of space exploration was incredibly dangerous with several crews never returning from their missions due to numerous kinds of threats. I'd say most would consider mass death on that scale to send the meter wayyyy past "crazy shit" and into the red zone of "if you join Starfleet, in all likelihood, you will die a gruesome death in the Final Frontier".
Which is unrealistic. Again, crazy shit happened in the West (or the inner city today) but per capita it was safe. Starfleet would not have been exploring like they were if they were losing ships as in the height of wartime. It was episodic TV.
Agree to disagree. I think it's among the most believable interiors we've ever seen in Trek. Usually they're just busy and dangerous looking. If you're able to, you don't send people out people for years on ships that look like that. Comfort is key.
Agree to disagree. I think it's among the most believable interiors we've ever seen in Trek. Usually they're just busy and dangerous looking. If you're able to, you don't send people out people for years on ships that look like that. Comfort is key.
Who doesn't want their StarShip interiors to look comfy and like something out of Ikea or other high end Furniture / Room Decoration magazines?
I know I do, I'd rather it be "Super Comfy", than ugly.
We can have Function / Aesthetics, the TNG era of shows set in the 24th century proved that.
One assumes more random stuff happens to starships named Enterprise than on average for other starships. Most ships would have the relatively boring careers as expressed by the USS Cerritos early on in Lower Decks.
One assumes more random stuff happens to starships named Enterprise than on average for other starships. Most ships would have the relatively boring careers as expressed by the USS Cerritos early on in Lower Decks.
How many times have StarFleet encountered random Hostile Alien or ended up in a Fire Fight with random new alien while exploring? Would you really want your family members on board the same ship as you while you're exploring the strange unknown?
Yep--just ask wife-to-be Angela Martine from "Balance of Terror"/ Oh, wait--it would not be a good idea to ask her anything about that, since Tomlinson, her husband-to-be was killed during the conflict with the Romulans.
Which is unrealistic. Again, crazy shit happened in the West (or the inner city today) but per capita it was safe. Starfleet would not have been exploring like they were if they were losing ships as in the height of wartime. It was episodic TV.
No, it is very realistic, due to fragile humans encountering that which they would not be prepared to understand, much less handle. Historically, exploration into new territories was / is dangerous, and if Starfleet is the inspired descendant of sea vessels, then it makes since so many would lose their lives to conflict, disease, heretofore unknown threats, etc., since that claimed the lives of endless people in the history of travel / military mission / exploration / colonization by sea.
Danger and risk are inseparable qualities of exploration. As Kirk so famously said, "Risk is our business!", which was not just the greatest call to action in the Star Trek franchise's history (right after the Space...the final frontier..." opening), but an acceptance of the dangerous--potentially deadly nature of space exploration / contact.
Anything less is the equivalent of sitting at home playing on a gaming console, where there are no risks, no chances or consequences.
Agree to disagree. I think it's among the most believable interiors we've ever seen in Trek. Usually they're just busy and dangerous looking. If you're able to, you don't send people out people for years on ships that look like that. Comfort is key.
Yep--just ask wife-to-be Angela Martine from "Balance of Terror"/ Oh, wait--it would not be a good idea to ask her anything about that, since Tomlinson, her husband-to-be was killed during the conflict with the Romulans.
Finally, somebody who understands the dangers of what could easily happen to "Loved Ones".
I would feel sorry for Angela Martine to find out her husband to be was killed by Romulans, and she was on the same ship and could do "NOTHING" about it.
That's why civilians should stay safe, at home Planet-side, or under heavy protection on a StarBase near the populated Planet.
Modern military has many officers/enlisted on tour for short stints. as well before they get to go back to be with their family.
No, it is very realistic, due to fragile humans encountering that which they would not be prepared to understand, much less handle. Historically, exploration into new territories was / is dangerous, and if Starfleet is the inspired descendant of sea vessels, then it makes since so many would lose their lives to conflict, disease, heretofore unknown threats, etc., since that claimed the lives of endless people in the history of travel / military mission / exploration / colonization by sea.
Danger and risk are inseparable qualities of exploration. As Kirk so famously said, "Risk is our business!", which was not just the greatest call to action in the Star Trek franchise's history (right after the Space...the final frontier..." opening), but an acceptance of the dangerous--potentially deadly nature of space exploration / contact.
Anything less is the equivalent of sitting at home playing on a gaming console, where there are no risks, no chances or consequences.
That's why you leave the civilians at home, and are surrounded by professionally trained StarFleet Officers who know how to handle crisis situations.
The last thing we need in a crisis is for Officers to worry about their loved ones in the middle of a dangerous situation.
Any distraction that you can eliminate will offer better chances of survival.
We can still make the vessel comfortable while exploring. It doesn't have to go all Carnival Cruises.
I think TNG found the "Right Balance" of comfort, modernity, home while aboard the Enterprise-D.
Even many foreign bases have as many creature comforts of home while away from home as possible.
StarBucks, Burger King, etc.
There's no need to be too Spartan in your furnishings.
Danger and risk are inseparable qualities of exploration. As Kirk so famously said, "Risk is our business!", which was not just the greatest call to action in the Star Trek franchise's history (right after the Space...the final frontier..." opening), but an acceptance of the dangerous--potentially deadly nature of space exploration / contact.
I think that’s a romantisized view of history. “Enterprises” taking on risk is one thing, playing craps with massive numbers in lives and investment is another. There are whole books filled with horrific tales of plane crashes, train crashes, hikes gone awry, people dying in their own homes, too. By and large exploration is relatively safe and profitable.
We’re talking about an episodic sci-fi TV show from 1966, a combination of Wagon Train and Flash Gordon (neither realistic). It should not be confused with “historical documents.”
No military vessel goes out for 5-20 years at a time. Comfort is functional. You’re going to risk the mission because you like feeling kewl?
Also, the TOS Enterprise was super comfortable compared to other ships. Wide corridors, colorful accents, an arboretum and expansive rec deck—hell, a bowling alley. And the look of it was not some short stout mean-looking thing with lots of hull plates, greebles, and phaser turrets. It was spindly and pretty and smooth, and magnificent for it.
Hopefully you ask your family members if they want to do it as well and to accept the risk as a civilian
Nobody expects you to leave them for that long.
Deployments should be optimized into (24-month | 2 Year) chunks post 24th century according to my ODFERP (Optimized Dynamic Fleet Engagement & Response Plan) Scheduling plans.
Operational Phases for a StarShip:
- Maintenance and/or Repairs: 01-08 months
- Ship ShakeDown / Training: 04-08 months
- Travel time & Deployment @: 08-19 months
Hopefully behind the shield that is StarFleet & it's mighty StarBases.
Nobody stated there is "Absolute Security". And StarFleet wasn't doing it's best, that's why Q came along to give Humanity a swift kick in the crotch a few times to wake them up.
StarFleet was very "Complacent" when they encountered the First Borg Cube. We saw how bad the results of "The Battle of Wolf 359" turned out.
StarFleet had 40 Ships vs 1 Borg Cube. That resulted in 39 Ships Destroyed; 11,000 people Killed or Assimilated into the Collective.
Look how much better StarFleet did in the short few years after when it encountered the 2nd Borg Cube near Earth in ST: First Contact.
It was a FAR better result then the first time around, the StarFleet Task Force at least managed to Destroy the Cube & stall it's progress for quite a while until the Enterprise-E came into be "Big Damn Heroes".
Maybe my memory of First Contact is faulty but Starfleet wasn't doing well in that battle against the Borg. Despite years of Borg Prep they were getting their asses kicked. It was only because Picard showed up--against orders--with Special Insight, that the fight was won.
