What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Richard S. Ta]

Fun conversation.

In it’s own way it actually has been.

@fireproof78 Sorry if things got a bit nasty.

 

[fireproof78]

In it’s own way it actually has been.

@fireproof78 Sorry if things got a bit nasty.

I'll never shy away from speaking my mind, no matter the unpopular response.

Appreciate the apology.

 

[Citiprime]

The point is that Kirk went to his boss, the top of all Starfleet and said "Hey, I've got a sick guy, a dead friend, the Vulcan ambassador asking me for help, and we need to do a thing" and Morrow came back with "Nahhhhhhh. That's a bunch of pointy eared green blooded nonsense."

That's when Dr. Squeek should have showed up and said "Actually, Admiral, it has been proven by doctors T'ipsy and Schlock that this is a serious medical condition and we should attend to it post haste."

To be fair, Starfleet/Federation knowledge about Vulcan physiology seems to be extremely limited during Kirk's era.

If we go by what we see in TOS ("Amok Time"), apparently the Vulcans, who at that point have been members of the Federation for about a century, and associating/allied with humanity for almost two centuries, have been so secretive about their physiology that Starfleet medicine doesn't know they go through Pon Farr every 7 years.

It does make me wonder if Starfleet's knowledge about Vulcans (and other species) is that limited, how does any Vulcan member of Starfleet pass a medical physical if the doctors are that ignorant of normal processes?

There's another question about McCoy's situation in Search for Spock that I have: By what authority are they detaining him and "shipping him off to the Federation funny farm" against his will?

You can see how someone would diagnose a mental condition, but McCoy wouldn't be deemed "crazy" by any modern medical definition. He's not a danger to himself or others. He's able to hold conversations and respond to questions. He understands where he is. And he understands the consequences of his actions and those of others. So how exactly do Federation doctors judge that to be worthy of a psych hold?

 

[fireproof78]

he understands the consequences of his actions and those of others. So how exactly do Federation doctors judge that to be worthy of a psych hold?

Deemed disabled and not able to meet basic needs as well as a danger to others due to attempted assault on law enforcement.

Even if he understands the consequences he could still be held if he behaving recklessly or deemed a danger.

 

[Farscape One]

I'd like to come back to this because I think it's an interesting question. I think Garak. Quark is mostly a petty crook, but Garak did (we assume) horrible things as a member of the Obsidian Order. One could argue he's "punished" eventually in seeing Cardassia in a broken state at the end of the war, but I'm not sure. He's a very "grey area" character.

OTOH, Quark, especially in the beginning, is a purely selfish character. And he never really gets any kind of comeuppance. In fact, in franchising Quark's, you could say he gets rewarded for his ways.


*SNORT!*


Yeah, no. I'd argue that's more in the Most People Would Call Them War Crimes ballpark. But then we get into Georgiou territory again, because It's The Klingon Way. I think in both cases, it's probably one of those things that requires something like an International/Interstellar Court, where the preponderance of peoples in a quadrant (or whatever) can decide.


Exactly. They knew what they were getting into. Everyone of them knew they were risking court martial and possibly jail.


I watched it yesterday. I thought it held up quite well.


My friend, I think you are what we call in D&D "lawful neutral".

"Lawful neutral defines any character or approach that follows a strict code to maintain stability and order. Lawful neutral characters believe in and support the rule of law, no matter whether it's good or evil."


I'm SO glad someone else uses this phrase!


More realistic, but probably not as good Drama. (I like the names!)

Regarding 'cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs'...

You'd be surprised how often I use that phrase. (My wife seems to be baffled by the sheer number of phrases I use... many she never heard before meeting me. It's a source of amusement and amazement every time I drop one, especially if they amomg the older ones.)

To be fair, Starfleet/Federation knowledge about Vulcan physiology seems to be extremely limited during Kirk's era.

If we go by what we see in TOS ("Amok Time"), apparently the Vulcans, who at that point have been members of the Federation for about a century, and associating/allied with humanity for almost two centuries, have been so secretive about their physiology that Starfleet medicine doesn't know they go through Pon Farr every 7 years.

It does make me wonder if Starfleet's knowledge about Vulcans (and other species) is that limited, how does any Vulcan member of Starfleet pass a medical physical if the doctors are that ignorant of normal processes?

There's another question about McCoy's situation in Search for Spock that I have: By what authority are they detaining him and "shipping him off to the Federation funny farm" against his will?

You can see how someone would diagnose a mental condition, but McCoy wouldn't be deemed "crazy" by any modern medical definition. He's not a danger to himself or others. He's able to hold conversations and respond to questions. He understands where he is. And he understands the consequences of his actions and those of others. So how exactly do Federation doctors judge that to be worthy of a psych hold?

Regarding authority to arrest McCoy...

McCoy was talking about a classified planet and subject... loud enough that the entire bar could hear him. At the beginning of the movie, Admiral Morrow did say there were standing orders that the Genesis planet and everything related to it is to be discussed with no one.

Trying to get a ship there in the middle of a crowded bar is definitely going against orders.

 

[fireproof78]

Man, Starfleet classifies everything cool.

 

[Citiprime]

Regarding authority to arrest McCoy...

McCoy was talking about a classified planet and subject... loud enough that the entire bar could hear him. At the beginning of the movie, Admiral Morrow did say there were standing orders that the Genesis planet and everything related to it is to be discussed with no one.

Trying to get a ship there in the middle of a crowded bar is definitely going against orders.

Deemed disabled and not able to meet basic needs as well as a danger to others due to attempted assault on law enforcement.

The problem I have with his arrest and confinement being due to either the violation of classified info or an “attempted assault on law enforcement” is that you would think either of those justifications would require due process, a trial, a detailed medical evaluation, and/or the ability to contest the evaluation.

However, it seems like it’s still the same night he was picked up in the bar (since he’s wearing the same clothes), and within what is arguably a matter of hours they’ve deemed him mentally unfit, confined him, and already putting him in an institution?

 

[Warp Core Breach]

All within 10 minutes.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I'd like to come back to this because I think it's an interesting question. I think Garak. Quark is mostly a petty crook, but Garak did (we assume) horrible things as a member of the Obsidian Order. One could argue he's "punished" eventually in seeing Cardassia in a broken state at the end of the war, but I'm not sure. He's a very "grey area" character.

OTOH, Quark, especially in the beginning, is a purely selfish character. And he never really gets any kind of comeuppance. In fact, in franchising Quark's, you could say he gets rewarded for his ways.

On the other hand, you could argue that Quark is not just rewarded for his ways but rewarded for, somewhat, changing his ways.

There's a fairly clear undercurrent of Quark becoming less and less set in his selfish, backwards mindset over the course of the show, even though he still loudly proclaims otherwise a lot.

Meanwhile Garak, while actually becoming a sort of hero eventually, only ever really changes what side he's on, not who he is. He is exiled by Cardassia and forced to rely on Federation kindness so helps them out, then made even closer allies to them by the Dominion oppression of Cardassians. But there is every reason to believe he would just as happily use any of his old tools or strategies - no matter how awful - from the Obsidian Order in service of that alliance as he did in his past in service of Cardassia, just so long as he believed he could get away with it.

 

[Warp Core Breach]

This is all just making me want to watch 3 and 4 again. I wanna nitpick them too!

 

[fireproof78]

The problem I have with his arrest and confinement being due to either the violation of classified info or an “attempted assault on law enforcement” is that you would think either of those justifications would require due process, a trial, a detailed medical evaluation, and/or the ability to contest the evaluation.

However, it seems like it’s still the same night he was picked up in the bar (since he’s wearing the same clothes), and within what is arguably a matter of hours they’ve deemed him mentally unfit, confined him, and already putting him in an institution?

In the jurisdiction I work in a detainment can only be done by specified people who file a petition with the court specifying the reason and length of the hold. If deemed a danger, either to self or others, initial hold is 24 hours while the court reviews it. Then follow up petition is fine depending on evaluations.

Other jurisdictions may be different, especially ones with magical medical devices that can evaluate a mental state.

 

[Lord Garth]

I had no idea 40-year-old movies were so controversial.

 

[Tallguy]

One of the most glaring weaknesses of The Search for Spock is that it really shows Starfleet (and possibly the Federation) to be a really terrible organization. The series was smattered with this as well to an extent but TSFS kind of doubled down on it. To say the least.

It never occurred to me that because McCoy is in a bar blabbing classified information that the Federation solution to this is to have him declared insane and committed. Paging Dr. Van Gelder! (If one was being generous one might figure that we missed the scene where he is at least tested or something. But I'm not feeling generous because this movie is all glorious heart and has no brain.)

But then you have Starfleet. Not only are Our Heroes The Best of the... Well, they're the best. Because everyone else in Starfleet is incompetent. And if you listen to Nimoy's commentary this is not an accident. As far as he's concerned Our Crew are the Real Deal and everyone else are pretenders.

I had no idea 40-year-old movies were so controversial.

Oh, I'm sure we can find some more.

 

[at Quark's]

There's a fairly clear undercurrent of Quark becoming less and less set in his selfish, backwards mindset over the course of the show, even though he still loudly proclaims otherwise a lot.

Business as Usual (late season 5) shows there are moral boundaries Quark won't cross for profit.

I wonder though what Season 1 Quark would have done?

 

[BillJ]

One of the most glaring weaknesses of The Search for Spock is that it really shows Starfleet (and possibly the Federation) to be a really terrible organization. The series was smattered with this as well to an extent but TSFS kind of doubled down on it. To say the least.

It never occurred to me that because McCoy is in a bar blabbing classified information that the Federation solution to this is to have him declared insane and committed. Paging Dr. Van Gelder! (If one was being generous one might figure that we missed the scene where he is at least tested or something. But I'm not feeling generous because this movie is all glorious heart and has no brain.)

But then you have Starfleet. Not only are Our Heroes The Best of the... Well, they're the best. Because everyone else in Starfleet is incompetent. And if you listen to Nimoy's commentary this is not an accident. As far as he's concerned Our Crew are the Real Deal and everyone else are pretenders.

When one starts digging, Star Trek III is a very interesting look at the Federation.

 

[Shawnster]

I think kicking them out would be a pretty big PR black eye. The public would be wondering when law and order was more important than the survival of Earth?

No, not when compared with imprisonment. Plus, an honorable discharge is much better than any other type of discharge, especially dishonorable or other than honorable.

Placing a gag order as to the real reason for the discharge would be necessary. The public and everyone else would need to be told the decision to retire was voluntary. Give them a hero's farewell.

Except for Tom Paris being reduced to Ensign for a year and a half, we have never seen a lead character get demoted on a permanent or semi-permanent basis

Tuvok would like a word with you. Janeway busted him down too, If I recall correctly.

Not that promotion nor demotion had any real effect on Voyager

I think a comparable situation is Sheridan from BABYLON 5. After Clark was gone, President Luchenko told him 'half the generals wanted to give you a medal, the other half wants you shot'. He did the right thing but in the politically inconvenient way. So she gave him the option of either resigning or a court martial. After he got amnesty for his crew, he agreed to resigning. He then got elected as President of the new Interstellar Alliance. Sheridan didn't even know he was getting elected. He certainly got punished because he loved Earthforce and served his entire adult life.

This was exactly what I was thinking about when I suggested the honorable discharge.

The law must have separate meanings for each individual.

In such a situation all the conspirators would be charged with the same crimes unless they took a plea deal. There are minor variations where one conspirator might have a slightly different charge.

I had forgotten that McCoy could likely be viewed as innocent, too. Especially due to being impaired. So Spock and McCoy both are innocent. As for the rest, they all played a part.

Assault on Starfleet officers. Doesn't matter if it was a beat down, a slap, or spit on. Assault is assault. True, maybe not everyone would be charged with this. Kirk definitely and, likely, Sulu.

Destruction/vandalism of Federation/Starfleet property. Again, Sulu. Also Scotty on the Excelsior.

Imprisonment. Uhura.

Theft of the Enterprise. All of them.

Jailbreak. All of them.

dereliction of duty. Violation of orders. Mutiny. All of them.

Kirk as ringleader shoulders most of the responsibility.

Brig time, considered time already served due to time in exile on Vulcan.

A letter of reprimand in his permanent record.

Except for Brig time, this sounds as much a slap on the wrist as what actually happened. If you want to count time served on Vulcan as brig time, then this definitely is just a slap on the wrist.

Plus, how does this serve justice beyond being simply punitive? Punishment for punishment sake? How does any of this serve to rehabilitate?

The problem I have with his arrest and confinement being due to either the violation of classified info or an “attempted assault on law enforcement” is that you would think either of those justifications would require due process, a trial, a detailed medical evaluation, and/or the ability to contest the evaluation.

However, it seems like it’s still the same night he was picked up in the bar (since he’s wearing the same clothes), and within what is arguably a matter of hours they’ve deemed him mentally unfit, confined him, and already putting him in an institution?

Even today police have the authority to pick up and detain a individual for a limited time without filing any charges.

In the United States, police can detain individuals for a temporary period of time if they have reasonable suspicion that the person is involved in criminal activity.

If McCoy was in the same clothes, if the break out was only a few hours after arrest, then the authorities may have been within their legal rights. There is no need to assume that the Federation is really exercising draconian power and shipping McCoy off to Tantalus V without due process, trial, or medical examination and psychiatric determination.

 

[Tallguy]

Business as Usual (late season 5) shows there are moral boundaries Quark won't cross for profit.

I wonder though what Season 1 Quark would have done?

This is why I feel I can lump Garak in with Quark. Although I realize that this is the Garak We Know, not the Garak We Heard About. He's a monster and a half.

I don't recall the specifics (there is a LOT of Deep Space Nine) but I recall in the earlier seasons that Quark pulled some stunts that clearly put the DS9 crew in mortal peril. And I remember thinking at the time "Am I still going to be able to like this guy after this?"

But hey, Loki killed Phil Coulson and we love him. Fiction, eh? (But he didn't EAT PEOPLE. Dude.)

 

[fireproof78]

But hey, Loki killed Phil Coulson and we love him. Fiction, eh? (But he didn't EAT PEOPLE. Dude.)

No. He just slaughtered whole populations, attempted genocide, attempted to enslave all of Earth, attempted to kill his adopted father and kill his own people.

But, he can have his own show and be a scamp, right?

Except for Brig time, this sounds as much a slap on the wrist as what actually happened. If you want to count time served on Vulcan as brig time, then this definitely is just a slap on the wrist.

Plus, how does this serve justice beyond being simply punitive? Punishment for punishment sake? How does any of this serve to rehabilitate?

I would be inclined towards honorable discharge because the trust of breaking the chain of command is severe to me, but brig te and time serve to me illustrates that he did wrong, and two, he needed time away to reflect on the consequences of his choices, including on his crew whom he is responsible for.

I would be more willing for demotion, brig time, and a letter of permanent reprimand at minimum and discharge at maximum.


I know the heroics defense gets thrown out a lot over the past several pages but that should only have some weight considering Kirk decided to commit his crimes before any of that whale probe nonsense or Kruge happended. That he lucked in to right place/right time doesn't change his premeditated crimes.

Also, the argument "well, he saved Earth" is the same one used for promoting Kelvin Kirk at the end of 09. Does it still work?

 

[Citiprime]

One of the most glaring weaknesses of The Search for Spock is that it really shows Starfleet (and possibly the Federation) to be a really terrible organization. The series was smattered with this as well to an extent but TSFS kind of doubled down on it. To say the least.

I think there's issues with the world-building in Search for Spock, but I still think its strength is that it has the best character moments of all the films. McCoy's evaluation of Kirk as someone who "turns death into a fighting chance to live," Kirk's response to Sarek that he had to what he did because "the cost would have been his soul," and ultimately Kirk's "human" response to Spock's inquiry about why he came back for him ("the needs of the one outweighed the needs of the many"), is why the movie will always be one of my favorite things in Trek canon.

On the other hand, you could argue that Quark is not just rewarded for his ways but rewarded for, somewhat, changing his ways.

There's a fairly clear undercurrent of Quark becoming less and less set in his selfish, backwards mindset over the course of the show, even though he still loudly proclaims otherwise a lot.

Meanwhile Garak, while actually becoming a sort of hero eventually, only ever really changes what side he's on, not who he is. He is exiled by Cardassia and forced to rely on Federation kindness so helps them out, then made even closer allies to them by the Dominion oppression of Cardassians. But there is every reason to believe he would just as happily use any of his old tools or strategies - no matter how awful - from the Obsidian Order in service of that alliance as he did in his past in service of Cardassia, just so long as he believed he could get away with it.

I've always thought the "root beer" conversation betrayed their true feelings.

To me, Quark and Garak are similar to people in the "Old South" that go-along-to-get-along with segregation, but deep-down they're sympathetic to the values of integration. They just feel like they need to be "good" Ferengi and Cardassains in appearances, but when you pull back the layers, they ultimately don't really believe the system they've been led to believe is what's "right."

For example, I truly believe that Quark loved and respected Jadzia. That if she had returned his unrequited feelings, he would have not given one fuck whether or not she wore clothes or not, or whether or not she believed in "Hu-mon" values.

 

[Farscape One]

Business as Usual (late season 5) shows there are moral boundaries Quark won't cross for profit.

I wonder though what Season 1 Quark would have done?

"MOVE ALONG HOME" is a great example of season 1 Quark having a line. Once he realized the crew were in danger, he started taking the 'safer path' when he rolled the dice.

It was also established that during the Occupation, he sold food to Bajorans at 'just above cost', something that utterly disgusted Brunt because it was example of him being a philanthropist. ("BODY PARTS" dialogue.)

No, not when compared with imprisonment. Plus, an honorable discharge is much better than any other type of discharge, especially dishonorable or other than honorable.

Placing a gag order as to the real reason for the discharge would be necessary. The public and everyone else would need to be told the decision to retire was voluntary. Give them a hero's farewell.




Tuvok would like a word with you. Janeway busted him down too, If I recall correctly.

Not that promotion nor demotion had any real effect on Voyager



This was exactly what I was thinking about when I suggested the honorable discharge.



In such a situation all the conspirators would be charged with the same crimes unless they took a plea deal. There are minor variations where one conspirator might have a slightly different charge.

I had forgotten that McCoy could likely be viewed as innocent, too. Especially due to being impaired. So Spock and McCoy both are innocent. As for the rest, they all played a part.

Assault on Starfleet officers. Doesn't matter if it was a beat down, a slap, or spit on. Assault is assault. True, maybe not everyone would be charged with this. Kirk definitely and, likely, Sulu.

Destruction/vandalism of Federation/Starfleet property. Again, Sulu. Also Scotty on the Excelsior.

Imprisonment. Uhura.

Theft of the Enterprise. All of them.

Jailbreak. All of them.

dereliction of duty. Violation of orders. Mutiny. All of them.

Kirk as ringleader shoulders most of the responsibility.



Except for Brig time, this sounds as much a slap on the wrist as what actually happened. If you want to count time served on Vulcan as brig time, then this definitely is just a slap on the wrist.

Plus, how does this serve justice beyond being simply punitive? Punishment for punishment sake? How does any of this serve to rehabilitate?





Even today police have the authority to pick up and detain a individual for a limited time without filing any charges.

In the United States, police can detain individuals for a temporary period of time if they have reasonable suspicion that the person is involved in criminal activity.

If McCoy was in the same clothes, if the break out was only a few hours after arrest, then the authorities may have been within their legal rights. There is no need to assume that the Federation is really exercising draconian power and shipping McCoy off to Tantalus V without due process, trial, or medical examination and psychiatric determination.

Regarding Tuvok... he was never demoted. Season 1 was full of rank pip costume errors. (Tuvok a Lt. Commander when he was always a Lt., Torres and Paris full Lts. when they are supposed to be Lt. j.g.) Tuvok was promoted to Lt. Commander in early season 4, "REVULSION".

Lt. Commanders are usually referred to as 'commander' when addressed, or 'Lt. Commander' durimg something, like a trial. They are not just called 'Lt.' while at the Lt. Commander rank. This has been true for all the shows in the franchise.

They did correct these pip errors, but later in the season. After "PRIME FACTORS", I believe.