What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[BillJ]

Unlawful imprisonment, initiating a brig break, and sabotage are protocol? Glad there is a protocol for that. Thanks Starfleet!

Kirk was only took part in one of those things, breaking McCoy out of jail. Which, honestly, did the Federation have any real reason to jail him, beyond talking about chartering a space flight?

Anyone else that would merit punishment but not Kirk.

Once again, he did get punished. Just not to your satisfaction.

 

[CorporalClegg]

(RIP James B. Sikking)

 

[fireproof78]

Once again, he did get punished. Just not to your satisfaction.

Yes. That's my point.

Kirk was only took part in one of those things, breaking McCoy out of jail. Which, honestly, did the Federation have any real reason to jail him, beyond talking about chartering a space flight?

Conspiracy.

But, yes, McCoy's jailing was kind of odd.

 

[BillJ]

Yes. That's my point.

Unfortunately, we don't always get what we want. SEE: Me, Georgiou and the Section 31 movie.

 

[fireproof78]

Unfortunately, we don't always get what we want. SEE: Me, Georgiou and the Section 31 movie.

I rarely get what I want with Trek. Which is fine, since I finally got my Pike show.

But, at least with the Section 31 film you can ignore that. because it has zero impact on something you like. I largely enjoy The Voyage Home, and rank it pretty high for Trek films, but like a lot of things there are little niggles that grind my gears hard when it comes to "hero saves the day" formulation.

 

[BillJ]

..."hero saves the day" formulation.

That is largely the Trek formula.

 

[fireproof78]

That is largely the Trek formula.

Used in varying degrees.

Insurrection tried similarly with working outside the rules. Just because that's the Trek formula doesn't mean it always works.

 

[BillJ]

Just because that's the Trek formula doesn't mean it always works.

Very clearly, at least by gauging audience reception, Star Trek IV "worked". To such a degree that it ruined Star Trek V.

 

[fireproof78]

Very clearly, at least by gauging audience reception, Star Trek IV "worked". To such a degree that it ruined Star Trek V.

Worked on an individual level.

That it worked for a majority doesn't make it work for me. I'm not the audience.

 

[BillJ]

I'm not the audience.

If you're watching, then you're clearly the audience. Or a member of it.

 

[fireproof78]

If you're watching, then you're clearly the audience. Or a member of it.

No, but just because the majority responds positively does not put a burden on me to confirm to that opinion. "It clearly works for the audience" excludes me because it didn't work for me.

 

[Farscape One]

I get where fireproof78 is coming from (partly because of his comparison of a joyrider with rich dad bailing him out), though I don't really agree with his position in Kirk's case simply because he did receive a punishment (demotion). Except for Tom Paris being reduced to Ensign for a year and a half, we have never seen a lead character get demoted on a permanent or semi-permanent basis. (I don't count being relieved of duty and coming back at the end of the same episode/two-parter.) While for Kirk it doesn't feel like a punishment, it was intended to be. Despite the President saying it was where he best served at. And had the probe situation not happened, the punishment would almost certainly be more severe... and ALL of them would have faced consequences.


I think a comparable situation is Sheridan from BABYLON 5. After Clark was gone, President Luchenko told him 'half the generals wanted to give you a medal, the other half wants you shot'. He did the right thing but in the politically inconvenient way. So she gave him the option of either resigning or a court martial. After he got amnesty for his crew, he agreed to resigning. He then got elected as President of the new Interstellar Alliance. Sheridan didn't even know he was getting elected. He certainly got punished because he loved Earthforce and served his entire adult life.

In this case, Kirk was demoted and he got a non-functional ship. And as has been stated, his demotion was used against him later. Not to mention his own guilt over David.


As for Starfleet not letting him go to Genesis for Spock, I can understand where they are coming from. To be fair to them, it WAS a mystical thing with no scientific root. Even the Vulcans were not sure it could work. (Sarek has a personal stake, so he is not exactly thinking fully logically.) They were lucky Spock landed on Genesis and was reborn, basically.

If I were that Admiral, I likely would have told Kirk no... it's mysticism, not science. Especially since there was so much galactic controversy over Genesis. BUT... I would have had the Grissom recover Spock's body. He could easily have ordered Captain Esteban to find Spock and bring him back after their survey. It would have taken longer for McCoy to get the help he needed, but he would have gotten it.

And had there not been such a pressing need because of McCoy, I think Kirk might have even suggested it.

 

[BillJ]

They do make it very clear in the movie, that Kirk and his crew received what they received because of "mitigating circumstances".

The Movie Transcripts - Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home

FEDERATION PRESIDENT: The Council is now in session. If you will all take your seats. Bring in the accused. ...Captain Spock, you do not stand accused.
SPOCK: Mister President, I stand with my shipmates.
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: As you wish. ...The charges and specifications are. Conspiracy. Assault on Federation Officers. Theft of Federation Property, namely the Starship Enterprise. Sabotage of the U.S.S. Excelsior, Wilful destruction of Federation Property, specifically the aforementioned U.S.S. Enterprise. And finally, disobeying direct orders of the Starfleet Commander. ...Admiral Kirk, how do you plead?
KIRK: On behalf of all of us, Mister President, I am authorised to plead guilty.
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: So entered. Because of certain mitigating circumstances, all charges but one are summarily dismissed. ...The remaining charge, disobeying orders of a superior officer is directed solely at Admiral Kirk. I'm sure the Admiral will recognise the necessity of keeping discipline in any chain of command.
KIRK: I do, sir.
FEDERATION PRESIDENT: James T. Kirk. ...It is the judgment of this Council that you be reduced in rank to Captain, ...and that as a consequence of your new rank, you be given the duties for which you have repeatedly demonstrated unswerving ability. The command of a starship. ...Silence! Captain Kirk, You and your crew have saved this planet from its own short-sightedness ...and we are forever in your debt.
(prolonged applause and cheers from all those present)

 

[BillJ]

As for Starfleet not letting him go to Genesis for Spock, I can understand where they are coming from. To be fair to them, it WAS a mystical thing with no scientific root. Even the Vulcans were not sure it could work. (Sarek has a personal stake, so he is not exactly thinking fully logically.) They were lucky Spock landed on Genesis and was reborn, basically.

Kirk had been in Starfleet for nearly thirty years, at that point. Would it have honestly hurt to indulge him after all he had given the service in his life?

That is just a sidebar. Why didn't Morrow tell Kirk that he could order the Grissom to retrieve the body and bring it home?* It seemed like Starfleet was being incredibly dickish towards Kirk in this matter.

*I understand that this is a movie and that particular bit would've pretty much ended things there. But, in-universe, it is a fair question to ask. Did Starfleet want more of a presence there than the Federation would allow, and Morrow knew Kirk and company would be impulsive and go anyway? That way they can get a real time update from an outside source on how things were playing out. Then Kirk could turn the Enterprise over to a senior Grissom officer to take Spock to Vulcan and Kirk and crew back to Earth to face the consequences.

 

[Tallguy]

And had the probe situation not happened, the punishment would almost certainly be more severe... and ALL of them would have faced consequences.

Yes.

In this case, Kirk was demoted and he got a non-functional ship.

It's not non-functional in Star Trek IV and that is certainly not the intention of the story. It's the ENTERPRISE.

To be fair to them, it WAS a mystical thing with no scientific root.

If I were that Admiral, I likely would have told Kirk no... it's mysticism, not science.

These are Vulcans. AND it HAPPENED. It doesn't get more scientific than that. This is not seeing The Great Bird in your toast.

Also: McCoy is suffering from an actual medical condition. In the capital of the Federation there has got to be someone who can look at that and say "Ah, yes. Here's your problem."

Also, when they steal the ship they are simply intent on bringing Spock's body back so that Spock's katra can be interred or whatever is done.

Of course over all of this, punishment or no, Spock's shipmates did the right thing. Even if they had gone to Vulcan, grabbed the body, and gotten back to Vulcan to finish whatever it was that they needed to do to get Spock's katra to wherever it was meant to go and help McCoy.

Mind you, I don't know why they had to steal a whole heavy cruiser to do it.

That is just a sidebar. Why didn't Morrow tell Kirk that he could order the Grissom to retrieve the body and bring it home?* It seemed like Starfleet was being incredibly dickish towards Kirk in this matter.

Right?

 

[BillJ]

It's the ENTERPRISE.

For me, there is only one. The rest are pale imitations.

 

[Farscape One]

Yes.


It's not non-functional in Star Trek IV and that is certainly not the intention of the story. It's the ENTERPRISE.



These are Vulcans. AND it HAPPENED. It doesn't get more scientific than that. This is not seeing The Great Bird in your toast.

Also: McCoy is suffering from an actual medical condition. In the capital of the Federation there has got to be someone who can look at that and say "Ah, yes. Here's your problem."

Also, when they steal the ship they are simply intent on bringing Spock's body back so that Spock's katra can be interred or whatever is done.

Of course over all of this, punishment or no, Spock's shipmates did the right thing. Even if they had gone to Vulcan, grabbed the body, and gotten back to Vulcan to finish whatever it was that they needed to do to get Spock's katra to wherever it was meant to go and help McCoy.

Mind you, I don't know why they had to steal a whole heavy cruiser to do it.


Right?

Even most Vulcans didn't think it would work. It had been so rarely done. So yes, this still can be called mysticism.

One could make the argument it worked for Spock because he was half human and he put his katra in another human, McCoy. (Obviously, human brains couldn't handle that for too long. But it may have been long enough for it to be complete enough for the transfer back into Spock to take place.)

From the perspective of anyone who has never seen something like that before, yes, it will be looked at as myticism and mumbo jumbo.

As far as McCoy and Federation medicine, they didn't know what was going on. He just seemed to be going off the deep end. His behavior in the bar, and him trying to neck pinch the security agent made him look cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

Given how quickly events occured, McCoy probably didn't see a doctor before Kirk broke him out of the cell. So no one could diagnose him.


And I do agree, and already said, that the Grissom could have been ordered to retrieve Spock.

 

[1001001]

Good Lord…

@Nyotarules and I should get hazard pay for having to read all that.

 

[BillJ]

Good Lord…

@Nyotarules and I should get hazard pay for having to read all that.

 

[Tallguy]

Even most Vulcans didn't think it would work. It had been so rarely done. So yes, this still can be called mysticism.

We're not talking about Fal Tor Pan. When they stole the Enterprise they thought they were going to get back a body. Katra 101 as far as the Vulcans knew.

That's what Kirk (and Sarek) are asking for. And what Starfleet dismissed as mumbo jumbo.

As far as McCoy and Federation medicine, they didn't know what was going on. He just seemed to be going off the deep end. His behavior in the bar, and him trying to neck pinch the security agent made him look cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.

It's Earth. It's the capital of the Federation. There should be Vulcan medicine there.

The way it plays out they are racing to get to Genesis before the Klingons do and before the planet blows up.

But from what the Enterprise crew knows the ticking clock is McCoy. They don't know any of the rest of it.

Of course the real question is: What do they need the body for?? What is even going ON in this movie?!?