What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Richard S. Ta]

It's fine you didn't like them. But "Heil Honey" is still worse.

Immeasurably worse.

Taking a real person from history who orchestrated the killing of upwards of 6 million Jews, then positioning him in a sitcom in which hijinks ensue as he clashes with his Jewish neighbours…

It should have been killed in the cradle, but 11 episodes were written and 8 filmed… it’s bewildering because shows don’t just get made. There’s a long and tough process between concept and realisation and this must have been approved by a whole series of people…

There’s nothing in Star Trek worse than that. Though of course, Eddie is being facetious.

 

[cooleddie74]

Ja.

 

[Citiprime]

To play “Devil’s Advocate” for a second, I do think a lot of this depends on the quality of the writing and to a degree are products of their era. “Heil Honey…” was just a bad show, but there were arguably other successful series with concepts that would be just as problematic in a modern era.

For example, if you were to pitch “Hogan’s Heroes” as a sitcom today, I don’t believe a comedy about the whacky exploits at a Nazi prisoner of war camp makes it on the air.

Also, a classic show like “All in the Family” would be VERY controversial if it debuted to a modern audience, given the protagonist of the show is a “lovable bigot” who spouts racial and misogynistic slurs.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

To play “Devil’s Advocate” for a second, I do think a lot of this depends on the quality of the writing and to a degree are products of their era. “Heil Honey…” was just a bad show, but there were arguably other successful series with concepts that would be just as problematic in a modern era.

For example, if you were to pitch “Hogan’s Heroes” as a sitcom today, I don’t believe a comedy about the whacky exploits at a Nazi prisoner of war camp makes it on the air.

Also, a classic show like “All in the Family” would be VERY controversial if it debuted to a modern audience, given the protagonist of the show is a “lovable bigot” who spouts racial and misogynistic slurs.

Allo Allo ran for 9 seasons!

 

[Tallguy]

given the protagonist of the show is a “lovable bigot” who spouts racial and misogynistic slurs.

He wasn't supposed to be loveable. That was just a happy accident.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

To play “Devil’s Advocate” for a second, I do think a lot of this depends on the quality of the writing and to a degree are products of their era. “Heil Honey…” was just a bad show, but there were arguably other successful series with concepts that would be just as problematic in a modern era.

Indeed.

In fact in places, TOS is rife with dodgy concepts.

 

[ananta]

Allo Allo ran for 9 seasons!

Listen very carefully, I shall say this one once: I loved Allo Allo! Rewatched recently and still funny.

 

[Shawnster]

For example, if you were to pitch “Hogan’s Heroes” as a sitcom today, I don’t believe a comedy about the whacky exploits at a Nazi prisoner of war camp makes it on the air.

Also, a classic show like “All in the Family” would be VERY controversial if it debuted to a modern audience, given the protagonist of the show is a “lovable bigot” who spouts racial and misogynistic slurs.

I also agree Hogan's Heroes would likely not be greenlit today, but not because it was irreverent or disrespectful to those who suffered and died at the hands of the Nazis. It's interesting that, in Hogan's case, Werner Klemperer would only play Col. Klink under the provision that Klink must always fail. Nazi plans could never be depicted as succeeding if they were to hire him. (sorry, can't find source). And the actor who played LeBeau, Robert Clary, was a Holocaust survivor.

But, I think All in the Family might still pass muster. Perhaps viewing audiences were more sophisticated back then but it was clear from first episode that progressive/liberal moral and political values were the core of the stories being told through irony and sarcasm. My wife and I are watching "Boston Legal," made in the early 2000s and the same style is used. So, unless there has been another shift in creative mindset, I can imagine the same holding true today. Humor, wit, sarcasm, and irony are quite effective tools to promote views some may feel as contrary to their sensibilities. The Daily Show and the various YouTubers that interview people at Trump rallies are modern examples.

 

[Mage]

To play “Devil’s Advocate” for a second, I do think a lot of this depends on the quality of the writing and to a degree are products of their era. “Heil Honey…” was just a bad show, but there were arguably other successful series with concepts that would be just as problematic in a modern era.

For example, if you were to pitch “Hogan’s Heroes” as a sitcom today, I don’t believe a comedy about the whacky exploits at a Nazi prisoner of war camp makes it on the air.

Also, a classic show like “All in the Family” would be VERY controversial if it debuted to a modern audience, given the protagonist of the show is a “lovable bigot” who spouts racial and misogynistic slurs.

Absolutely. There are parts of TOS that would definitely not be acceptable by today's standards as well.

 

[Tallguy]

And the actor who played LeBeau, Robert Clary, was a Holocaust survivor.

John Banner who play Schultz was also Jewish and his family who stayed in Vienna died in the camps.

Remarkable show.

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

There’s nothing in Star Trek worse than that. Though of course, Eddie is being facetious.

Speaking as a JOJO RABBIT appreciator, I'[ve got to admit I as a younger man I felt it in questionable taste to see Abraham Lincoln (or his illusion) perish in combat in THE SAVAGE CURTAIN. I also had mixed feelings about resurrecting Jack the Ripper in TOS as well.

That being admitted, I'm a lifelong original PRODUCERS fan since 40 years back.

 

[Commander Troi]

"How could this happen? I was so careful. I picked the wrong play, the wrong director, the wrong cast. Where did I go right?"

 

[fireproof78]

 

[Tallguy]

While we're still talking about Nazis I have to tell everyone that they have to see the original To Be Or Not to Be (1942). It's like they made Hogan's Heroes WHILE THE WAR WAS GOING ON.

I can't find a Star Trek connection other than to say that maybe I will watch it again when Section 31 premiers.

 

[fireproof78]

So, I had a thought with the whole Section 31 dust up and why I think I am OK with the idea of Georgiou. No, it's not because I support her atrocities or whatever, but I think that thematically she reflects the journey that humanity has to take in order to evolve the way TNG insists that we can, and often times fail to do. That humanity is dark, and has a very dark side to it, a violent history, and atrocities throughout the recorded past, much less things that are not recorded.

If we are to claim that humanity can grow and change then why not reflect that thematically in fictional characters to explore potential growth of humanity. It's a similar thing we see in Quark some times, or even Garak, and why those characters often stand out, both a reflection of human excess, as well as human potential.

 

[BillJ]

It's a similar thing we see in Quark some times, or even Garak, and why those characters often stand out, both a reflection of human excess, as well as human potential.

They are petty shoplifters compared to Georgiou.

 

[fireproof78]

They are petty shoplifters compared to Georgiou.

And this misses the point.

 

[BillJ]

And this misses the point.

Sometimes, crimes are so heinous that there is no real road back. And, they made sure to show plenty of those crimes committed by Georgiou.

 

[fireproof78]

Sometimes, crimes are so heinous that there is no real road back. And, they made sure to show plenty of those crimes committed by Georgiou.

So is all of humanity.

That's the point. Thematically, as a race, humans are as bad, if not worse, than Georgiou. We are killers, as Kirk would say, with the blood of millions if not billions on our hands. How do we evolve past that?

 

[BillJ]

How do we evolve past that?

By using Georgiou as an example of how bad it can get, and punishing her accordingly.