The Earth - Romulan War (non-canon)

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In the 22nd century, Earth seemed to have a Parliamentary system (they had "Ministers" and what not). I think it's entirely possible that in becoming the capital world of the Federation, Earth integrated that into Parliament... like the President of Earth is the Head of Government, but the Federation President is the Head of State.

No, the President of United Earth (as seen in DSC) is Earth’s head of state.

The Prime Minister of United Earth -a position implied by the existence of Ministers - is the head of government.

That is what is known as a parliamentary republic.

The President of the Federation is only the head of state (and of government) OF the Federation. He has nothing to do with Earth’s local government. That is an entity unto itself.

Remember, United Earth is just another Federation member world, It enjoys no special status or privileges. True, the main Federation government buildings - and Starfleet Command - are indeed located on Earth, but that doesn’t mean anything. They’ve got to be somewhere, amirite?

Take Ottawa, for example. It is the capital of Canada, and Parliament Hill is located there, but it is still a normal Canadian city just like any other.

Same story here. Jaresh-Inyo, for example, has his offices on Earth. And during the Changeling crisis, he has the right - as Federation President - to declare martial law on ANY member world, and to ‘federalize’ that world’s local forces as he sees fit. But that still doesn’t mean he has anything to do with day-to-day local government. He’s just exercising his authority, as UFP President, in a crisis situation.

Edit: Paging @Sci! Paging @Sci! I summon thee!

 

[evilchumlee]

Or, perhaps, every Federation member has its own home guard or planetary militia. Similar to how each US state operates a National Guard division yet the National Guard is not the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, or Space Force.

Of course, the Bajoran militia needing to be folded into Starfleet speaks against such an idea.

I think that's entirely true, since we KNOW that member worlds can/do operate their own forces.

What I think the idea behind the Bajoran militia being integrated into Starfleet really means is that some of it would be integrated into Starfleet. Every member world would contribute to Starfleet, while also having the option to retain forces of their own.

The Federation would demand a percentage of the Bajoran forces transition to Starfleet Command, while Bajor would still be able to keep most of it under their direct command.

No, the President of United Earth (as seen in DSC) is Earth’s head of state.

The Prime Minister of United Earth -a position implied by the existence of Ministers - is the head of government.

That is what is known as a parliamentary republic.

I'm not sure the President of Earth counts in this particular exercise... that's 900 years into the future, after Earth had left the Federation. There no reason to assume nothing at all has changed in that time...

Yes, I do believe Earth has a Prime Minister.

The President of the Federation is only the head of state (and of government) OF the Federation. He has nothing to do with Earth’s local government. That is an entity unto itself.

Remember, United Earth is just another Federation member world, It enjoys no special status or privileges. True, the main Federation government buildings - and Starfleet Command - are indeed located on Earth, but that doesn’t mean anything. They’ve got to be somewhere, amirite?

That could also totally be the case.

I was directly making a comparison to Washington D.C. here. Washington DC also has no special status or privileges... in fact it kind of has less, given it is NOT a state and thus has no representation... sort of. Among the other duties of the US Congress, it also essentially runs Washington DC. Washington has an elected Mayor, but the US Congress acts as the "city council" so to speak.

I was postulating a possible correlation with how Earth works in the Federation. Not exact... Earth is definitely a full member world. But Earth is also absolutely gung-ho about the Federation and absolutely dominates the Federation in every aspect, so it doesn't seem outlandish that Earth voluntarily gave a measure of control to the Federation President/Council.

It's also entirely possible that's totally incorrect. It's just one possibility.

I think it's also possible that the Federation facilities work in a similar manner to the United Nations. UN HQ is location "in" New York, but it is not under the authority of the United States. It is its own, sovereign land.

 

[Lord Hierarch]

Has anyone tried to compile all the various Romulan war depictions/events into a single set?

 

[evilchumlee]

Has anyone tried to compile all the various Romulan war depictions/events into a single set?

It depends what you mean by "all". All canon mentions?

Memory Beta compiles most of the official but non-canon works:

https://memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Earth-Romulan_War

 

[Tenacity]

When Kirk said in the mid 23rd century that their operating authority was the United Earth space probe agency, he meant exactly that.

 

[Tenacity]

Remember, United Earth is just another Federation member world, It enjoys no special status or privileges.

Also remember that Riker said in one of the movies that without Earth the Federation would cease to exist.

 

[evilchumlee]

Also remember that Riker said in one of the movies that without Earth the Federation would cease to exist.

Yes, and it's a recurring them in DS9 as well. Although I think that is really more of a situation of any government being absolutely kneecapped if essentially its entire central governmental apparatus were destroyed.

If an enemy were able to pop in and essentially "The Die Is Cast" Earth, that's going to be a massive blow to Earth, having now lost damn near ever senior military and governmental official. President? Gone. Federation Council? Gone. Starfleet Command? Gone.

Yes i'm sure the Federation has contingencies and succession laws and what not, but it's still not an easy recovery when you've lost a good deal of the institutional knowledge in one shot and you're left with like, the 32nd-in-line for Federation President taking over in an absolute crisis situation and each member world trying to scramble to figure out who is even in charge, who represents them, etc.

The minor plus to the Federation is that Starfleet, despite being such a monolithic organization, is oddly decentralized. Yeah the real big wigs will be lost with Earth, but Starfleet is spread out enough and should be able to recover a command structure relatively quickly, while perhaps operating under more local command in the interim.

 

[Shawnster]

This was a nice fan flm set between shortly after the Romulan War. I like their solution to the claim humans remain unaware of the Romulan appearance until Balance of Terror.

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And this fan film is set during the war.

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[CaptChris42]

We do have this....

Granted, it's not considered canon as it wasn't legible on screen, it still contains interesting info and could at least give us an idea of what we would have seen on Enterprise, had the show continued.

Of particular note is that mentioned the war being between Earth forces and the Romulan Star Empire, and thar the war was brought to an end by the eventual Earth/Andoria/Vulcan/Tellerite Alliance.

*They messed up the year of First Contact.

**Interesting that they also connect the Eugenics War and World War III, starting the war in 2026.

Hmm, can you tell me where that came from?

Also, I've been trying to find out the origination of the 2026 date, as well as earliest references to Colonel Green's war (mentioned in FASA et al)

The 2061 date came from the Next Generation Technical Manual, meanwhile... being supplanted by the movie First Contact.

 

[HotRod]

Hmm, can you tell me where that came from?

Also, I've been trying to find out the origination of the 2026 date, as well as earliest references to Colonel Green's war (mentioned in FASA et al)

Then 2061 date came from the Next Generation Technical Manual, meanwhile... being supplanted by the movie First Contact.

It's from In a Mirror, Darkly Part 2. It's status as canon is debatable as it wasn't really legible on screen.

 

[CaptChris42]

It's from In a Mirror, Darkly Part 2. It's status as canon is debatable as it wasn't really legible on screen.

Ah, you mean it's a reproduction of the databases Mirror Archer was reading - I see. I had wondered if it was drawing on anything older? At any rate, Strange New Worlds seems to be potentially drawing from it, going forward.

Placing Colonel Green that early would also be a bit curious, as that would make him pretty old circa 2055, and still at the same basic, ah, seniority (however that works for anarcho-fascists etc)

 

[Nyotarules]

Also remember that Riker said in one of the movies that without Earth the Federation would cease to exist.

Which is arrogant tosh and based on human exceptionalism and disproved by DISC

 

[Nyotarules]

Cochrane parents need to meet soon lol

 

[Tenacity]

Which is arrogant tosh and based on human exceptionalism and disproved by DISC

Or it was a case of Riker speaking the truth, and what he said being fact.

It wasn't a matter of the Federation governance being located on Earth, that could (as noted) fairly quickly be reconstituted on another Federation world, but rather it was the efforts of Earth (Humans) that was holding the Federation together. It was seen in the TOS episode Journey to Babel that Federation members don't always like each other.

 

[Tenacity]

The NX Class was shown to be time consuming to build

I don't think that it was inherently slow to build, but rather that the ships were low priority during the time period of the series Enterprise. The budget was for a multi-year build, but it could have been built in several months under a wartime budget.

The Daedalus class were designed (in part) using experience gained from the voyages of the NX01, and were in every way technologically superior, onboard systems were next generation to the NX01, plus they were physically smaller warships, therefor faster to build.

Why would Earth build second class starships to defend themselves across hundreds of lightyears from a technological opponent?

I think the Coalition powers would be involved

Going back to Spock calling it the Earth/Romulan War. If Earth was just one of many allies, would a Vulcan call it that?

Although those freighters are slow as molasses,

Would they continue to be molass if their drive systems were upgraded to keep up with the advancing battle fleet? If the following support fleet couldn't maintain the pace, they would be worthless.

 

[Citiprime]

Which is arrogant tosh and based on human exceptionalism and disproved by DISC

Except ENT shows the opposite. Earth is the partner that all of the regional powers (i.e., Vulcan, Tellar Prime, Andoria, etc.) trust. Humanity is the glue that holds them together.

Also, I'd argue DISC doesn't disprove that, since what's left of the Federation is still dominated by humans at the highest levels (e.g., Kovich), all of the founding states are in decline or slipped into isolationism, and even the shell of the Federation that's left has to hide its existence to survive.

 

[evilchumlee]

Why would Earth build second class starships to defend themselves across hundreds of lightyears from a technological opponent?

Given the idea that the NX-Class was difficult, slow and expensive to produce and Earth had... literally 2 even capable of fighting in this war, they needed a fleet and they needed it fast.

A 100 mass produced second class starships that get into the fight are better than 5 high tech ones...

Going back to Spock calling it the Earth/Romulan War. If Earth was just one of many allies, would a Vulcan call it that?

In context, the conflict was defined by Earth fighting the Romulans. Others were involved, but the primary combatants were Earth and the Romulans.... thus... the Earth/Romulan War.

There's also just some perspective. Spock is talking to a bunch of humans. Humans call it the Earth/Romulan War. Vulcans may call it something different, but given his audience, he used the human term.

Would they continue to be molass if their drive systems were upgraded to keep up with the advancing battle fleet? If the following support fleet couldn't maintain the pace, they would be worthless.

The idea being that Earth can't just magically upgrade these ships with a snap of a finger.

 

[oberth]

Given the idea that the NX-Class was difficult, slow and expensive to produce and Earth had... literally 2 even capable of fighting in this war, they needed a fleet and they needed it fast.

A 100 mass produced second class starships that get into the fight are better than 5 high tech ones...

shouldn't they have called it the sherman class then?

 

[Tenacity]

The idea being that Earth can't just magically upgrade these ships with a snap of a finger.

But they can pump money into creating a support fleet, without which Earth's battle units are not going to be able to do their jobs. Old cargo ships get turned into faster tankers carrying deuterium, something has to haul munitions (torpedoes) to depleted warships after battles. Injured and dead crew members have to be replaced.

Warships simply can't constantly return to Earth.

So you keep the majority of the structure of old ships and replace the drive systems, if they were warp two, now they're warp more than that.

 

[evilchumlee]

But they can pump money into creating a support fleet, without which Earth's battle units are not going to be able to do their jobs. Old cargo ships get turned into faster tankers carrying deuterium, something has to haul munitions (torpedoes) to depleted warships after battles. Injured and dead crew members have to be replaced.

Warships simply can't constantly return to Earth.

So you keep the majority of the structure of old ships and replace the drive systems, if they were warp two, now they're warp more than that.

Right but... again that's probably not a situation of "Oh we need faster freighters? Wham bam, faster freighters!" I think this happened with some of them.

I like to think of this war a real "seat of the pants" operation. Kinda throwing whatever they could at the problem, in whatever form that took. If they could get some better warp drives into old freighters? Awesome. If they have to use what they have and get these freighters out there loaded with things... when they eventually get there? It's better than nothing.

Although in my version here, it's probably less likely that these freighters got upgrades. I have Earth going all-in on the Daedalus, which ends up fulfilling the role of the freighters as well. They're basically hollow tubes with a warp drive strapped in. They can do everything, while not being particularly good at anything.

The idea behind my version of the Daedalus is there mission is quite literally to "Stock up on munitions. Warp to battle. Deploy munitions. Return to base. Stock up on munitions..." It works because they just build a ton of them and the ships can run powered on hopes and dreams.