This Side of Paradise and Pike

[ZapBrannigan]

Is an established telepathic connection really blocked by physical barriers? Michael Burnham was able to communicate telepathically with Sarek over an astonishing distance.

You don't need to drag in that, let's call it JV material here. This is the varsity Star Trek board. You could make the same argument from "The Menagerie" framing story, or "The Immunity Syndrome" with the Intrepid Vulcans goosing Spock.

But the leaded glass blocked Spock from reaching Kirk from a half-inch away. That has to mean something.

 

[Christopher]

Is an established telepathic connection really blocked by physical barriers? Michael Burnham was able to communicate telepathically with Sarek over an astonishing distance.

Yeah, there's never been any indication in Trek that telepathy is based on EM signals or is interfered with in any way by material or distance. Spock was able to influence a guard's mind through a wall in "A Taste of Armageddon," and felt the death of the Intrepid crew instantaneously across light-years, confirming that telepathy is either an FTL phenomenon or a nonlocal one (which is why I called it a quantum phenomenon in my novels). In "Haven," Wyatt Miller had a telepathic link with his destined love across interstellar distances. Picard and Sarek maintained a meld for hours across separate rooms and decks with lots of structural material in between.

See, this is one reason I'm not a fan of psionic powers as a fictional plot device -- because they're all too often just an excuse to let characters arbitrarily violate physics or common sense and do whatever the plot requires, so they rarely follow any consistent rules or limits.

But the leaded glass blocked Spock from reaching Kirk from a half-inch away. That has to mean something.

It means he'd already melded with McCoy before Kirk arrived. In real life, that's because the meld was tacked on in reshoots and had to be a brief insert in the existing scene structure; in-story, it's presumably because Spock had no way of knowing whether he'd live long enough for a Dramatic Farewell Scene with Kirk, so he had to katrify (katriculate?) whoever was available before he went into the radiation room.

 

[Shawnster]

But the leaded glass blocked Spock from reaching Kirk from a half-inch away. That has to mean something.

This would be an example of head canon, because lead glass is never mentioned in the movie. While logical and based on real world science, this is still your personal speculation. Star Trek has shown it is willing to ignore reality for the sake of a good story.

On the other hand, you may be right. There was no time to discuss the matter logically. Spock may have needed to transfer his katra before entering the chamber

 

[Christopher]

While leaded glass is sufficient as shielding for x-ray technicians and the like, I doubt the depicted thickness would be sufficient for blocking radiation as intense and swiftly fatal as what Spock was exposed to. It's got to be some kind of advanced futuristic metamaterial or something.

 

[DonIago]

It was clearly isoleaded isoglass. (ducks)

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I suppose while dying, his telepathic abilities (initiating a bond) would begin to fail, in addition to whatever physical barriers stood in his way.

Supposedly, as a Vulcan dies, would their telepathy "frequency" change to be able to pick up other dead Vulcans' katras (stored in arks, jars, etc), as opposed to the living?

 

[Christopher]

I suppose while dying, his telepathic abilities (initiating a bond) would begin to fail, in addition to whatever physical barriers stood in his way.

I thought of that possibility, but then I realized, if that were the case, then katras could only be saved in cases where people knew in advance that they were going to die. And in ENT: "The Forge," Arev/Syran was on the brink of death when he transferred Surak's katra to Archer, so his telepathy remained viable right to the end.

Supposedly, as a Vulcan dies, would their telepathy "frequency" change to be able to pick up other dead Vulcans' katras (stored in arks, jars, etc), as opposed to the living?

As presented in the novels, the whole purpose of depositing katras in the Hall of Ancient Thought is to allow living Vulcans to commune telepathically with the katras of the deceased. Although that raises a ton of questions, of course. Are all Vulcans' katras in there (other than those who died alone or too abruptly to meld with anyone)? How do they have room? Is it one katric ark to a customer, or do they share? If the dead's minds live on and can be consulted, why don't we see the effect of this on Vulcan culture?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I thought of that possibility, but then I realized, if that were the case, then katras could only be saved in cases where people knew in advance that they were going to die.

A special consequence of the radiation, not all deaths. And one would not be able to initiate it, but all the work would be done on the part of the person who was not dying. Like a katra tow truck, not a tandem bike.

 

[Christopher]

A special consequence of the radiation, not all deaths. And one would not be able to initiate it, but all the work would be done on the part of the person who was not dying. Like a katra tow truck, not a tandem bike.

I still say the simpler answer is that Spock had no way of knowing if he'd live long enough to see Kirk again, so he melded with McCoy before he went in.

Although another possible consideration is that he may have known the katra might have a debilitating effect on the recipient, and a fully competent Kirk would be in a better position to get a debilitated McCoy to Vulcan than the reverse.

 

[David cgc]

The novelization says that it's something specific to McCoy that made being a katra-keeper so disorienting, that he was "allergic" to mind-melds. I once heard someone suggest it might've been interference or scarring from getting the forced meld from mirror-Spock.

I'd say if this was a foreseeable consequence, it'd be irresponsible for Vulcans to keep it private and make it a surprise for their soon-to-be-bereaved coworkers or loved ones, but, then, that's not unprecedented.

 

[Christopher]

The novelization says that it's something specific to McCoy that made being a katra-keeper so disorienting, that he was "allergic" to mind-melds. I once heard someone suggest it might've been interference or scarring from getting the forced meld from mirror-Spock.

Which is apocryphal, of course. The other canonical example we have is Archer carrying Surak's katra, and while he wasn't quite as screwed up as McCoy, it did have some disruptive effect. Spock presumably wouldn't have wanted to risk subjecting Kirk to that.

I'd say if this was a foreseeable consequence, it'd be irresponsible for Vulcans to keep it private and make it a surprise for their soon-to-be-bereaved coworkers or loved ones, but, then, that's not unprecedented.

It's illogical to keep their reproductive cycle secret too. Also, even Vulcan secretiveness doesn't justify how Kirk didn't know Spock's father was Ambassador Sarek (he never looked at his own first officer's service record?) and had never heard of Surak, the most important figure in the history of a Federation founder world. Just the consequences of it all being made up on the fly one story at a time. (See also nobody ever mentioning David Marcus or the Kobayashi Maru in TOS.)

 

[Ovation]

a fully competent Kirk would be in a better position to get a debilitated McCoy to Vulcan than the reverse.

The reverse might have been a more interesting story (though I understand why it wasn’t the one they chose to tell).

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I mean, really, for those of us who saw it in 1982, when we didn't know where things would lead in the next film, Spock's "Remember" simply played like an echo of his "Forget" in "Requiem for Methuselah." While the possibility occurred to many of us that it could be a hook for resurrecting Spock, that was by no means unambiguous at the time. For all we knew, maybe he was just reminding McCoy of the good times, or letting McCoy share Spock's memory of how he really felt about McCoy, Kirk, etc.

That was the beauty of it being something as simple and vague as "Remember." Nimoy left them with a seed that could form the basis of the plot of the next sequel (which is what ended up happening), or it could just be left at McCoy's line "He's not really dead, as long as we remember him" from the end of TWOK. If Nimoy had then decided not to return to Star Trek after all, it wouldn't have felt like anything was missing.

I don't see how that could be, since the reactor chamber was fitted with lead lined glass. That's just regulatory compliance. Transparent aluminum wouldn't cut it.

That's why he couldn't mind meld with Kirk, and it would certainly block a complete transference.

Spock performs a long-distance mind meld on a guard through a wall in "A Taste of Armageddon." That shows that he could do that sort of thing under normal circumstances.

I thought of that possibility, but then I realized, if that were the case, then katras could only be saved in cases where people knew in advance that they were going to die. And in ENT: "The Forge," Arev/Syran was on the brink of death when he transferred Surak's katra to Archer, so his telepathy remained viable right to the end.

Why are you assuming that telepathy is a constant, and that all Vulcans are equally proficient at it? Spock likely had a different level of telepathic ability than the Vulcan on ENT. Spock's telepathy could also have been compromised by the radiation, or it could've had no effect at all. We just don't have enough information to tell one way or the other.

If I had to headcanon it, I'd just go with "Time was a factor, and if Spock mind-melded with McCoy and implanted his katra into him as quickly as possible, that was one less thing he had to worry about and he could then devote all of his energies into repairing the ship."

 

[VSAFaculty]

That's where my 14 year old brain went when I saw it back then. And McCoy's follow up line "he's really not dead, as long as we remember him" felt like I was right.

However, I also couldn't accept they'd actually kill off Spock because the TV series used that cheat a few times for drama. So while my mom was in tears walking out of the theater, I just said "I wonder how they'll bring him back?" I just didn't want them to do the "Obi-Wan Kenobi" ghostly visions idea that David Gerrold postulated in his (I think) updated "World of Star Trek" book.

I walked out crying, too!

 

[Ssosmcin]

The whole Katra thing is both imaginative and odd. It's a good way to resurrect Spock that's in keeping with Vulcan lore, but odd that Spock never did it before. This isn't the first time Spock went into a situation knowing he wouldn't survive. Since it's obviously a time delayed transfer, he could have laid it on Kirk or McCoy in "The Immunity Syndrome" before leaving - unless he wasn't taught how to do it yet or maybe was still shy about sharing that stuff with humans. Thing is, can he snatch it back or cancel it if he doesn't die?

Also, I'm not certain Spock had this in mind on his way down to the engine room. It feels like after he knocked out McCoy, it occurred to him that he had time to do a quick transfer setup.

Also, even Vulcan secretiveness doesn't justify how Kirk didn't know Spock's father was Ambassador Sarek (he never looked at his own first officer's service record?)

Thank you! I've been saying this for years and you're the first person to actually agree with me instead of coming up with some reason to explain it. It's an awkward "TV moment" that makes Kirk look, at best, tone deaf; his suggestion to Spock about visiting his parents in front of the delegation is inappropriately timed. Done just to give us an intriguing hook in the teaser. It's one of the very few missteps in an otherwise upper tier episode.

 

[Christopher]

This isn't the first time Spock went into a situation knowing he wouldn't survive. Since it's obviously a time delayed transfer, he could have laid it on Kirk or McCoy in "The Immunity Syndrome" before leaving - unless he wasn't taught how to do it yet or maybe was still shy about sharing that stuff with humans.

Hmm... That suggests the possibility to me that maybe katra transfer is an advanced technique only doable by trained adepts, and Spock didn't learn how until he studied for Kolinahr. Although I have mixed feelings about that. It makes sense that it would be an advanced skill, and if it's rare, it would explain my questions about the Hall of Ancient Thought, if only a small number of highly skilled melders manage to preserve their katras. But that makes it a disturbingly elitist thing, a way that a privileged few can achieve a form of pseudo-immortality denied to the masses.

Thing is, can he snatch it back or cancel it if he doesn't die?

That's a point in favor of my idea that the initial meld only opens a channel of sorts that the katra transfers through at the moment of death. If death doesn't occur, then one simply lets the link dissipate like a normal meld.

 

[Mudd]

Whether the spores were "mind controlling parasites" is wholly irrelevant to whether they could or should be used to heal someone like Pike. Making a phony dilemma of it is preposterous.

Of course they could, and should.

Their capabilities are explicitly spelled out in the episode. They regrow lost organs and reverse scar tissue damage. They are a miracle cure.

The 100% effective treatment to reverse the psychological/neurological side effects of the spores was shown to be so simple that a military officer with no medical background stumbled across it within a few hours once he was aware that it was a problem.

Our physicians employ a veritable pharmacopeia of toxic, sometimes addictive drugs and substances to treat serious life-threatening illnesses, despite our not having nearly so reliable procedures for controlling or reversing their deleterious effects as the crew of the Enterprise did for the spores.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I'm imagining sickbay reduced to a spore chamber, followed by a therapeutic roast.

 

[Ovation]

I'm imagining sickbay reduced to a spore chamber, followed by a therapeutic roast.

As long as they don't install one on the Discovery--wouldn't want to go to wrong spore chamber.

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

I Want Strange New Worlds To Break Star Trek Canon & Save Captain Pike

I want Strange New Worlds to change Pike's future.

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