Planets "In" Federation space that don't want to be part of the Federation.

[valkyrie013]

So.
The Federation is a VAST conglomeration of planets, spanning a 1000 light years. However by early 25th century, there are only 150 member planets. In a 1000 light year "Bubble" there are probably 1000's of planets that might be capable of life.
So the question is..
Say your planet just created its warp drive, you have First Contact with the Federation, you find out there are aliens out there, and Surprise! your home system is deep in there territory.
So, say you don't Want to be part of this federation, but by default, you have to deal with them because your basically surrounded.
How does that work?
They want to expand to colony world themselves, maybe there more militaristic like the Klingons and want to conquer.
What if all there near by habitable systems are already colonized by other federation members?
What happens to that new species?

 

[Citiprime]

Someone brought this up in a thread a while back, and mentioned how a species might feel if they found out their equivalent of Alpha Centauri and the surrounding star systems that they one day hoped to explore had already been claimed by colonists doing the equivalent of Scottish (TNG) and Game of Thrones (LD) cosplay on them. That we would be legitimately like WTF?

I would think that if a planet went through first contact with the Federation, turned down membership, but wanted to still use warp drive and be transparent with their people about what existed in the larger universe, there would probably be attempts to at least get agreements on free passage through space and trade. Failing that, I would expect the Federation to restrict border access to hostile species.

One thing I've wondered is whether the major powers have anything close to agreements on an equivalent of the United Nations Laws of the Sea Convention and other issues like we do in the here and now? Where there's agreement to safe travel along specified "lanes" of traffic, as long as it's a certain distance away from a nation's territory.

For example, Quark was able to take Nog to Earth aboard his own shuttle. So, at the very least, there must be provisions allowing for non-Federation citizens and craft to travel in Federation space.

 

[valkyrie013]

A thought of, maybe there's a 5 or so light year exclusion zone around a pre warp planet. with maybe the habitable planets around said planet set aside for there colonization. But, what if that neighbor achieved warp 50 years before them?.. Ah Bureaucracy!

 

[C.E. Evans]

There could be countless worlds that are not actually members of the Federation, but are still under its protection due to their geographical location within it. These worlds owe no allegiance to the Federation, do not adhere to any of its laws, and are likely free to conduct business with anyone they like, as long as it doesn't endanger the Federation perhaps.

In DS9, Julian Bashir's parents took him to Adigeon Prime to undergo genetic augmentation. While the practice is banned in the Federation, it isn't so on Adigeon Prime. Now a case could be made that this planet is outside of the Federation, but given how vast the Federation is, it's possible that it was within the Federation's confines, but just not a member world, IMO.

 

[drt]

I’ve mentioned this before but instead of a “space country” with distinct borders, I think it would have been better if the Federation and other empires were more like groupings of archipelagos with neutral space between them.

 

[Guy Gardener]

A thought of, maybe there's a 5 or so light year exclusion zone around a pre warp planet. with maybe the habitable planets around said planet set aside for there colonization. But, what if that neighbor achieved warp 50 years before them?.. Ah Bureaucracy!

In the Novel Prime Directive by the Reeves Stevenses, there's a throw away line that any world capable of producing a warp capable culture has an allotment of 50 planets untouched by anyone else.

Was the Briar Patch from Star Trek Insurrection surrounded by the Federation, or was that only later established in the fan series Hidden Frontier?

 

[at Quark's]

There also could be planets that might not be interested in joining the Federation even when they're 'surrounded' by it because it's the Federation that's too primitive. An example could be the 22nd century Vissians from Enterprise who seem to be centuries ahead of humans in terms of technology and science, and significantly beyond even the 24th century Federation, but apparently they don't like traveling long distances much.

For example, Quark was able to take Nog to Earth aboard his own shuttle. So, at the very least, there must be provisions allowing for non-Federation citizens and craft to travel in Federation space.

I would be very surprised if that wouldn't be the case. Seems pretty similar to me going on a holiday with my car to another country in the world of today, or even going on a business trip. Usually I'd expect no limitations on that beyond some checks at the border (barring of course some military zones), unless the country is a dictatorship of some kind.

Of course, it might be different for members of 'hostile' species.

 

[The Wormhole]

maybe there more militaristic like the Klingons and want to conquer

Since there's no way for a non-Federation power to reach this hypothetical planet without violating Federation territory, it looks like they won't be conquering that particular planet.

Was the Briar Patch from Star Trek Insurrection surrounded by the Federation, or was that only later established in the fan series Hidden Frontier?

It is established in Insurrection that the Briar Patch is in Federation space. It's the whole reason the Son'a sought Federation assistance in relocating the Ba'ku in the first place.

 

[Finn]

I've always wondered about pre-warp worlds within the core worlds of the Federation...say somewhere between Vulcan, Earth and Andoria...with centuries of history recorded to death, like it would be on Earth with the American Civil War Buffs learning that Vulcans were watching it back then and learned that they have to rewrite their books, or stuff like that. Pictures of Longstreet at Grant's Wedding. Videos of Queen Victoria doing her first watercolor paintings as a small child and Hitler walking out of that art school for the last time.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

I'm suddenly finding myself thinking about "inholdings" in various National Parks (or in some cases, in privately run living history areas -- while most of the doors in Colonial Williamsburg that are marked "private residence" are actually Historic House accommodations run by the Williamsburg Inn, there are still a handful of people who actually do live in CW). Examples in Independence National Historical Park include Carpenters' Hall, which is still owned and operated by the Carpenters' Company, a still-extant craft guild (the oldest in North America).

Presumably, a whole planetary society that opts out of Federation membership would be an "inholding" of sorts.

In FJS's 1970s-era Starfleet Technical Manual, the portion of the Galaxy nominally patrolled by the Federation is referred to as the "Treaty Exploration Territory."

 

[Frontis]

Planets should have the right to stay neutral.
F.e. like Switzerland in Europe.

 

[Nerroth]

For comparison's sake, there are a number of independent warp-capable worlds and species in Federation space over in the Star Fleet Universe; how each of them is treated varies depending on the specifics involved.

On the one hand, there is the case of a felinoid species known as the Bis'en. While they are a democratic society that would be welcomed with open arms into the Federation, they are fiercely prideful and prefer to remain formally independent. However, they are strongly linked to the Federation culturally, economically, and militarily; many Bis'en serve in Star Fleet, while the Bis'en sent armed forces to fight on behalf of the Federation against the Klingons and Romulans during the General War. (Perhaps the closest point of comparison would be Norway, which is in NATO and is part of the European Economic Area, yet which has not joined the European Union.)

On the other hand, there is the case of the Yeney, a humanoid species with a "pocket empire" of five star systems. The Yeney live under an aggressive, xenophobic military dictatorship, and are placed under Protective Quarantine by the Federation. ("Protective", as in to protect the nearby worlds from the species being quarantined.) Forunately, Yeney warp technology is quite primitive by "modern" Alpha Octant standards, making it easier for Star Fleet to keep a watchful eye on them.

-----

Indeed, the way that the Prime Directive Federation sourcebook tells it, the SFU iteration of the Federation itself has several tiers of membership, as well as specific means by which a planet can move from one tier to the next.

"Full" members have the most say in the Federation Council (the "upper house"), yet pay the most taxes (yes, there is money in the SFU's UFP) to keep things running. Associate members have non-voting status in the Council, yet pay a lower tax rate. Both full and associate members are represented in the Federation Assembly (the "lower house").

While some associate planets do become full members eventually, others do not - either by choice (in that the planetary government is content with their degree of integration with the Federation government) or otherwise (say, if a pre-existing full member vetoes their application).

Meanwhile, there are prospective and probationary planets in Federation space; the main difference between them is that the former are actively working towards Federation membership (akin to how new EU member candidates must accede to the acquis communitaire in order to join), while the latter are not.

-----

As for pre-warp planets covered by the Prime Directive; typically, their entire star system is left undisturbed. However, the Rigel star system is a notable exception; the Rigellians (whose home world is Rigel IV) are a founding member of the Federation and have extensively colonized their home system - with the exception of Rigel VII, where a pre-warp species unrelated to the Rigellians exists under Prime Directive protection.

 

[BillJ]

Destroy the planets and take their resources for your own.

 

[at Quark's]

are fiercely prideful and prefer to remain formally independent.

Which leads me to wonder: just how 'dependent' is the average Federation member? How much leeway does the Federation give individual members? To give two extreme examples:

a. Not directly interfering in a minor military border conflict between two Federation members that have failed to reach a diplomatic solution earlier, as long as the conflict doesn't escalate, or:
b. Prescribing that any Denobulan rhubarber should be between 27.1 and 32.9 cm in length and 'without any discernible curvature or discoloration' before it is approved for distribution within Federation space?

Would it be closer to a) or to b) ?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Destroy the planets and take their resources for your own.

So the Organian Treaty?

1. The Organians left the galaxy or died out.
2. The Klingons altered their genome so radically, so often, via mass hybridization, that the Organians no longer recognize modern Klingons as Classic Klingons, so the treaty no longer applies.
3. They exaggerated their strength, and only had the power to stop two ships once, and then they were tapped.
4. They accepted a bribe.
5. It's still enforced, but there are loopholes the lawyers from both sides figured out, so that they can, kill each other iniquitously.
6. Maybe the treaty was supposed to be enforced for 100 Organian years, not 100 human years, which is only really 6 Terran months.
7. They over committed, enforcing peace between too many worlds simultaneously, and 80 year old transgressions from the Federation/Klingon conflict are still being processed by beleaguered clerks.
8. The Organians are not real. They were Klingons, and it was a clever trick to get the Federation to back off.
9. The Organians are not real. They were Section 31, and it was a clever trick to get the Klingons to back off.
10. The treaty was suspended early, for good behaviour. Both sides learned how to get along, and there was no need to keep the training wheels on.

 

[Unicron]

There could be countless worlds that are not actually members of the Federation, but are still under its protection due to their geographical location within it. These worlds owe no allegiance to the Federation, do not adhere to any of its laws, and are likely free to conduct business with anyone they like, as long as it doesn't endanger the Federation perhaps.

This was basically how the FASA Trek RPG handled it, as the Federation as it existed during the TOS/TMP era was fairly large geographically (the contemporary Spaceflight Chronology, from which FASA drew some of their material, assumed there were at least 500 worlds) but many planets within its borders were not members.

There were four basic categories: full members like Vulcan and Earth, associate members who got some advantages and representation (but less influence than full members), colonies settled by or shared among specific members, and protectorates under the overall supervision of the Federation Council (Axanar being an example). Some planets and cultures preferred a more looser, more general alliance with the Federation because of the trade and military benefits (via Starfleet), but were generally slower to attain membership because of how those requirements could affect their cultures. Not to mention how the Prime Directive could apply as well.

In general, it seems that each planet has a degree of sovereignty for internal affairs, and forces like Starfleet or other Federation arms were expected to abide by local laws except when the immediate protection/service to the Federation as a whole would be in potential conflict with those laws. The Federation had its own currency (the credit) and member planets were required to accept it for trade along with other standards, but cultures typically retained their own local currencies and economies.

For my part, I feel like this is a fairly decent approach.

 

[Jedi Marso]

Wouldn't it be cool if a Trek series took a season to address these issues, explore them, flesh them out, etc. rather than having the heroes deal with another threat to the galaxy or the universe?

 

[publiusr]

Gas giants might be considered free to all.

When I saw the first images of the moon Miranda come in—so help me—I thought it had been strip mined.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Which leads me to wonder: just how 'dependent' is the average Federation member? How much leeway does the Federation give individual members?

Member worlds are left to run their own local affairs pretty much however they want to. As long as they abide by the basic tenets of Federation law: 1) one world government, and 2) no caste-based discrimination.

Beyond that, it’s fair game, really.

 

[Zapp Brannigan]

In the Novel Prime Directive by the Reeves Stevenses, there's a throw away line that any world capable of producing a warp capable culture has an allotment of 50 planets untouched by anyone else.

That was literally my first thought upon reading this thread. The (creative) argument made by some characters in this book went along the lines of, because pre-first contact civilizations are allotted neighboring planets to colonize, etc. in the future by the Federation, a pre-warp civilization can be assumed to be a member of the Federation.