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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 5x10 - "Life, Itself"

Rate the series finale...


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That's why Time Travel tech needs to be government regulated, no private entity or individuals should have access to it via threat of "Lawful Imprisonment & Death Sentence".
Well yes, and that would have been a much more reasonable way to do it then just having everyone in the universe decide to ban temporal technology.

I think they sacrificed "Durability of Hulls" for rapid hull repair.
They solved that in the 25th century with ablative armor generators.

You're forgetting the human / man power issue. When "The Burn" happened, ALOT of people were lost, very talented people.

With the fractioning of StarFleet & the UFP, they had a HUGE man power shortage.
Don't forget all the member worlds they lost along with access to their man power, economic power, & resources.
Holograms can literally solve all of those issues.

The Training pipeline for new Cadets was broken and only recently did they open up StarFleet Academy again. They went from the "Pass down the knowledge" from Master to Apprentice style training to large school training again.
And we have literally no idea why that happened given there was nothing functionally stopping them from re-opening it before.

There must be so many fragments of StarFleet all over the place with their own mini "SF HQ".

Re-joining everything is going to take time, maybe a "Life-Time" of work.
Re-joining everything should have taken them the length of time required to build a MIDAS array.
 
The only things we know that were made out of a Neutronium alloy were the power transfer fibers of Starfleet Headquarters.
Ah yes, the nearly indestructable "Power Transfer Fibers"

But the rest of the Ship / Starbase, not nearly as strong.

The actual hulls were mentioned as being either "organic" or "holographic".
"Holographic" = More Force Fields
"Organic" = Organic Matter Hulls = Weaker than hard / tough high element metals/alloys, but probably really easy to use a advanced form of dermal regenerator to fix the hull of your ship.

Well yes, and that would have been a much more reasonable way to do it then just having everyone in the universe decide to ban temporal technology.
I'm with you on that, a "Temporal Ban" is stupid, the sheer amount of science / educative knowledge you can get from Time Travel is IMMENSE. Just preventing people from abusing it is "Good Enough" and worth protecting.


They solved that in the 25th century with ablative armor generators.
You still require the base metals / metallurgy to make advanced alloys / logistics supply chain.
If they lost the "Logistics" to mine all the raw metals to serve as base material for all the ablative armor generators, then it would be hard to deploy on a fleet wide scale and be limited to select "Special Forces" equivalent of StarShips.

Holograms can literally solve all of those issues.
Androids & Holograms can help, but I don't think they can solve everything.
I believe in a hybrid teaming of "Organic Sentient/Sapient" people + Data Level Androids + Holographic Helper + MASS amount of Basic Droids + AI running alongside the StarShips computers.

And we have literally no idea why that happened given there was nothing functionally stopping them from re-opening it before.
Probably everybody was scrambling to get things working with the massive loss of life/staff/ships. Maybe alot the teaching staff was brought back onto active duty to fill in for the massive losses, leaving a major brain drain in the schools, ergo shuttering the schools down.

Re-joining everything should have taken them the length of time required to build a MIDAS array.
But you need lots of people on the other end who know how to work the tech, if you lose ALOT of your people, especially your science/engineering tech, anybody who survives will have to learn the hard way and they might not be able to repair their Long Range Subspace Transceivers.

Remember alot of the communication nodes were relatively short range and repropagating signals across the network that were tens to hundreds of light year away.

Not everybody is going to be lucky enough to be within range of the MIDAS array + all the appropriate Pulsars or Quantum Singularities.
 
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So, instead of removing the time portals technology all together, they could have repurposed them to not lead to the past or the future (ok, maybe 1 second into the future for just 'transit' purposes), and just have them connect all UFP planets or all other planets in the galaxy.
You assume those all survived the Burn even if repurposed as such.
 
Wouldn't synthetic dilithium crystals pose a similar problem of the Burn like natural ones?
They'd have to have same or similar properties to work, so not exactly the direction I would take... but I would agree that SF/UFP would have been able to create a synthetic form of Dilithium that works just fine long before Dilithium ever runs out.
If there are any "Subspace Components" to the Dilithium crystals, they can figure out how to shield it or work out some sort of passive defense mechanisms that would make them immune to Sukal's Subspace scream that would shatter Dilithium.


I'm more concerned that UFP/SF actually researched their own new power generation technologies and even encountered/scanned advanced forms of power generation (such as the Tetryon reactor and even Thermionic generators from Species 8472 - while the episode in question didn't specifically indicate they shared this tech with SF, the Delta Flyer took extensive scans of the habitat and 7 of 9 was able to identify thermionic generators as a power source - meaning she knew what they were, and most likely had an insight into how they might work - that alone would have spurred some research into the technology and it probably would have allowed SF to develop their own a few decades after VOY got back - even if they only had a few hints that the tech exists).
The Tetryon Reactor is what I think they would be working on. That provides a far more interesting way of generating power.

The Thermionic Generators seem to be a form of "Biological Reactor" that depends on the lifeform or living vessel.
That requires far more advanced Genetic Engineering than what StarFleet currently has with their stupid ban on 'Genetic Engineering'. StarFleet might understand the basic principles of how it works, but to genetically engineer a living ship would be asking a bit much of the UFP / StarFleet with it's silly Genetic Engeering Bans.

They are so behind on the "Genetic Engineering" tech that I don't think they could easily catch up.


Pretty much how I saw it. They didn't have to ban all aspects of time travel tech... they could have easily just kept some aspects of it in use and limited it on a hw level to not induce time travel but merely slows/stops degradation in the benamite crystals.

But I still think this issue would have been fundamentally resolved by the 25th century at the latest and using a form of Dilithium Recrystalization technology.
The Recrystalization Tech would be used to grow the Benamite and maybe "Slow it's degradation".
But the eventual usage / destruction of the Benamite through use would be "Unavoidable".
Ergo a constant industry designed around growing the Benamite.


That's definitely how I imagined it.
QS v1 tops out at 300 Ly's per hour which is still VERY fast. But, its 'cruising' speed seems to be much lower, since it was said VOY would have to spend 3 months inside Slipstream to cross 60 000 LY's (aka, about 27.777 Ly's per day). This could easily serve as a replacement for standard Warp drive as its not 'ridiculously fast' but it IS fast enough to traverse large distances in a shorter time frame while using it for exploration purposes.
Voyager was only able to stay in QSSv1 for 1 hr, therefore covering 300 ly's.
The main issuue with QSS is that it seems to do constant damage over time to your ships SIF (Structural Integrity Fields).
And like being super deep under water, if your structural integrity doesn't hold up, your vessel gets crushed like a soda can.

Unlike the Nova Class that can "Quick Recharge" it's shield emitters by turning it off and doing a full recharge in 45 seconds.
Imagine having multiple Shield Layers, each one with seperate shield emitters.
You can have the inner layer "Skin Shields" that are only 1-2 meters away from the hull that form from the grid lines of the ship. Don't push them out into the giant Ovaloid Bubble Shield that we saw in TNG, have it retract back to conform to the curves of the hull to minimize surface area.

Let the "Primary Main Deflector" Dish on the fore of your vessel handle the giant Ovaloid Bubble shield.

Add in a "Secondary Main Deflector" on the aft of your vessel, they can do a quick "On/Off Switch" by turning off the Deflector on the other side and turning on the other Deflector and letting it "Quick Recharge" while turned off.

This would allow ships to constantly cycle between multiple shields and have Multi-Layer shields.

This would require enemies to do "Massive Alpha Strikes" to take you down quickly or be in a long "War of Attrition" like a Pro Wrestling match, but in a Space Battle format.


QS v2 tops out at 10 000 LY's per minute - this can be used (as you said) in emergencies and also as a means to cross the void between Galaxies - Andromeda is only about 4 hrs away at those speeds... not to mention the much closer dwarf galaxies.
From what I can tell, the Benamite Crystals don't last very long, so the useful time limit for those crystals seem to be measured in multiple "Hours", so you could probably cover a very long distance in a short amount of time.
But I would be more worried about getting to a place for a rapid emergency response than using it to cross Galaxies.

We should explore our Galaxy First to 100% completion before we worry too much about other Galaxies.

I'd also rather use Spore Drive to travel the Galaxy, that seems to be a better practical technology to use once you exit/enter the Galactic Barrier, you can hop into the local Mycelial Network like you would hop into the London Tube/Rail Network.
 
I watched the rest of the episode a couple days late, but overall I rated it a 6. It was ok, but I was super disappointed about Burnham (and the Federation) unilaterally deciding that the Progenitor technology be destroyed because it was 'too dangerous for any single being or culture to control'. First of all that logic can be applied to basically any technology that exists in their time period or any time period for that matter. Anything can be used for good or evil, so does that mean they should stop using new technology all together? And Burnham already passed all the tests so she has been deemed worthy of being the steward of the technology. So why is she even doubting her ability to use it for good rather than evil? That is in itself a good sign that she is worthy of being the steward.

Another thing that bothers me is they also spent all that time and effort to procure the technology only to let it go without even learning anything from it. From the very beginning they seemed hell-bent on safeguarding it within the Federation at all costs, and they very well knew how powerful the technology was. So for them to destroy it in the end kind of contradicts their motives throughout the entire season. I feel like it was lazy writing that lacked imagination and creativity. They couldn't envision anything beyond the most simplistic conclusion.

In their decision to destroy it they are also in a way implying that because it wasn't theirs to begin with, they (or anyone else) really have no right to have or use it. Overall I think they have displayed a very 'self righteous' attitude in their decision.

These were my biggest gripes with the episode.
 
As Burnham said, you could create an entire army out of nothing. Or you could basically play God and take a lifeless planet and create life shaped in any way you desire.

How anyone jumped to that conclusion makes no sense. If they read the report (of "The Chase"), the Progenitors "seeded" planets, which then took millions of years to develop into what they planted. Instantaneous creation of life was NEVER mentioned as a possibility of the tech.

I enjoyed it. I was glad they didn't resurrect L'ak. Moll seemed completly deflated and defeated after that, and I think that was appropriate. I liked that they didn't bring back Book's planet - I felt that would've cheapened Book's arc from last season. The wedding was lovely and I'm glad Book and Michael got their happy ending. I could've lived without the Calypso tie-in. I think they did fairly well under the circumstances.

Again, that was some jump to think the device could do either of these things (resurrect L'ak or Book's home planet).
 
How anyone jumped to that conclusion makes no sense. If they read the report (of "The Chase"), the Progenitors "seeded" planets, which then took millions of years to develop into what they planted. Instantaneous creation of life was NEVER mentioned as a possibility of the tech.
I guess the argument is that the tech allowed the Progenitors to spread themselves across the galaxy without needing warp or anything and helped uplift their civilization, similar to if someone dropped the internal combustion engine into ancient Egypt or something.

It's not clear why they would keep this tech around or expect someone else would want it, particularly since I still struggle to find a non-violent/war-like way to use the tech.

Again, that was some jump to think the device could do either of these things (resurrect L'ak or Book's home planet).
I don't even think in the text anyone knew what the tech could do, so characters definitely made a leap. I think the Book thing was a bit of a joke though.

In their decision to destroy it they are also in a way implying that because it wasn't theirs to begin with, they (or anyone else) really have no right to have or use it. Overall I think they have displayed a very 'self righteous' attitude in their decision.

These were my biggest gripes with the episode.
They write an out by saying that if the aliens are still around and the tech is important enough, it'll be created again... whatever that means. lol

It's a bit funny because it's not really clear what the end game of humanity (or life) is supposed to be. In B5 we get an epilogue that shows transcendence, but Star Trek never actually looked that far forward. So maybe it's up to the Federation to create new life when the galaxy is about to die out and that technology will help, but that's so far into the future that it might as well be science fiction to these characters.
 
Interesting point made off-site. When they came back to film the coda, most of the other sets had already been dismantled or were being repurposed or refreshed for Academy. The bridge was the only set still standing.

Though I wish they would by default keep at least the bridge sets for each show intact and available to visit somewhere. I am sure it could make money as a low volume, premium ticket price kind of affaire.
 
Now that we've had an amazing send-off, and the Skydance merger happened, when is the Discovery TV movie happening?

What thread from this finale should be picked up?

I'm guessing it'll come out at Xmas 2025.:biggrin:
 
... a "Temporal Ban" is stupid, the sheer amount of science / educative knowledge you can get from Time Travel is IMMENSE. Just preventing people from abusing it is "Good Enough" and worth protecting.
The simple answer is fear. As ostensibly open-minded and forward-thinking as the Federation proudly claims to be and beats its chest, many of its big-picture decisions are based entirely on fear. Cases-in-point:
  • The centuries-long ban on genetic enhancement/augment tech due to the fear of producing another Khan - particularly disturbing when you consider that the only reason advanced species like Illyrians weren't allowed in the Federation was because genetic engineering is an integral part of their culture. A very bigoted stance on the part of the supposedly-"tolerant" Federation, IMO. They make rare exceptions to the rule, in the form of Una, Bashir & Dal, but it's still an excessively xenophobic stance.
  • The indefinite ban on travel to Talos IV out of fear that Talosian mind control capabilities will blow up the entire galaxy or something. The Federation actually goes so far as attaching the only death penalty to such an act. Treason, murder and genocide? No problem. Just re-scramble their brains at the asylum on Elba II. Visit a planet that should be approached with diplomacy? YOU DIE!!!
  • Leaving the Native peoples to twist in the wind over the Federation/Cardassian peace treaty (n both TNG & DS9) for fear of pissing off the Cardassians was an act of cowardice on the part of the Federation and flat-out wrong.
  • As for the time travel? The fear of stepping on a plant in the past as a potential threat to produce errant future time-line splits prevents anyone to establish a protocol for safely embracing the practice and use it for the good of all species. I suppose in the future, they started to embrace this notion somewhat with Daniels' association with his Temporal Agency, and Captain Braxton's USS Relativity but, like with the genetic engineering, it's been a very short list of exceptions to a very broad-brushed rule.
Those are some big ones that I can think of off the top of my head. I have no doubt there are others. As much of a bright picture as the Federation loves to paint for itself for the whole galaxy to envy and swoon over, they really are run by a bunch of feckless and hypocritical boobs.

As for my thoughts on the finale, it was pretty decent as finales go. It was a curious choice to make Progenitor tech actually older than the Progenitors, effectively neutering the whole mystery of Season 5 which is now essentially still a mystery. The only way to get to that pocket universe is now gone and nobody will ever know what really happened back then and who they were.

Maybe they should time travel to the distant primordial past of the galaxy to find out? ;)
 
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The simple answer is fear. As ostensibly open-minded and forward-thinking as the Federation proudly claims to be and beats its chest, many of its big-picture decisions are based entirely on fear. Cases-in-point:
  • The centuries-long ban on genetic enhancement/augment tech due to the fear of producing another Khan - particularly disturbing when you consider that the only reason advanced species like Illyrians weren't allowed in the Federation was because genetic engineering is an integral part of their culture. A very bigoted stance on the part of the supposedly-"tolerant" Federation, IMO. They make rare exceptions to the rule, in the form of Una, Bashir & Dal, but it's still an excessively xenophobic stance.
  • The indefinite ban on travel to Talos IV out of fear that Talosian mind control capabilities will bow up the entire galaxy or something. The Federation actually goes so far as attaching the only death penalty to such an act. Treason, murder and genocide? No problem. Just re-scramble their brains at the asylum on Elba II. Visit a planet that should be approached with diplomacy? YOU DIE!!!
  • Leaving the Native peoples to twist in the wind over the Federation/Cardassian peace treaty (n both TNG & DS9) for fear of pissing off the Cardassians was an act of cowardice on the part of the Federation and flat-out wrong.
  • As for the time travel? The fear of stepping on a plant in the past as a potential threat to produce errant future time-line splits prevents anyone to establish a protocol for safely embracing the practice and use it for the good of all species. I suppose in the future, they started to embrace this notion somewhat with Daniels' association with his Temporal Agency, and Captain Braxton's USS Relativity but, like with the genetic engineering, it's been a very short list of exceptions to a very broad-brushed rule.
Those are some big ones that I can think of off the top of my head. I have no doubt there are others. As much of a bright picture as the Federation loves to paint for itself for the whole galaxy to envy and swoon over, they really are run by a bunch of feckless and hypocritical boobs.

As for my thoughts on the finale, it was pretty decent as finales go. It was a curious choice to make Progenitor tech actually older than the Progenitors, effectively neutering the whole mystery of Season 5 which is now essentially still a mystery. The only way to get to that pocket universe is now gone and nobody will ever know what really happened back then and who they were.

Maybe they should time travel to the distant primordial past of the galaxy to find out? ;)
I 100% concur, something I wish they would get pushed out of.
 
The simple answer is fear. As ostensibly open-minded and forward-thinking as the Federation proudly claims to be and beats its chest, many of its big-picture decisions are based entirely on fear.

Yep. As progressive as the Federation likes to think it is, it really is quite conservative in practice.

Subspace beaming? Not explored. Manufactured intelligences, like AI or synths? Banned or just not researched in the mainstream. Transwarp? They tried once, with the Excelsior, and then gave up before giving it a fair shot.

Imagine the things they could do with transporters, including but not limited to reversing aging and disease, but, nah. It's always a one-off solution for Pulaski or April, and then promptly forgotten.

As for time travel, they have an entire bureaucracy devoted to restricting and suppressing it.
 
Well, I finally saw the finale and collected my overall thoughts on it.
As a season finale? It was okay.
As a series finale? They did the best they could with 15 minutes.
The climax came down to an ongoing fistfight with Burnham and Moll, capped off with a, frankly, pretty simplistic puzzle. The conversation with Burnham and the Progenitor was nice. SMG has always been a fantastic and capable actor. I found Culber's conclusion to his little arc to be very underwhelming. I'm disappointed that, of all the people he spoke to about it on the ship, he never talked to the person who actually has a symbiote.
It was fun to see Saru face off with the Breen, but it felt very tacked on just to give him something to do. It made me wish he'd been on-hand to negotiate with Ruhl instead.
I was happy they didn't ressurrect L'ak, because that was too obvious. But on the other hand, it was a massive waste to kill him so anticlimactically then.
It made no narrative sense that Moll would suddenly believe Burnham when told that L'ak was dead-dead.
The Daniels / Kovich reveal was fun. Nothing wrong with it. But I also get the feeling that isn't initially how they envisioned him.
Every other Trek ending gave us an idea of where everyone at least MIGHT end up. But not here. Here it was just Burnham, only Burnham, no one else even got a friggin' line. Yes, I know, I know, it's meant to be about Burnham, but holy hell can we at least give Stamets and Saru one line? Can we at least hint at what happened to them? Instead we get an extended scene of them trying to shoehorn in a connection to a Short Trek from several years ago. And yes, it was very shoehorned in. Clearly they didn't consider it earlier on, and thus had to hastily scrub the A off Discovery and everything when they realized it can't really fit with Calypso. I'd have rather they just left it hanging and give us a bit of resolution to the rest of the cast. But I'm sure there are many others who would disagree.

In the end, I think Michelle Paradise was an awful choice as showrunner. She had no experience with sci-fi, no experience with massive interconnected franchises, and it really, really shows. She turned Discovery into what she knew: Romantic CW stuff with a fantastical flair a'la "The Originals". Some people really like that stuff. Great. Wonderful. Different strokes and all that. But it's been an exceptionally polarizing show, and it didn't HAVE to be. I wish we'd had a showrunner who actually had a good handle on what Star Trek is supposed to be.
 
I wish we'd had a showrunner who actually had a good handle on what Star Trek is supposed to be.
What is it supposed to be? I grow tired of this question and people who hate Discovery being "in the feels" yet routinely spout off on "This is what Trek is supposed to feel like."

Well, maybe I missed a meeting or some other official STAR TREK FAN training but I don't know what the feel is. I don't know what it supposed to be. In my experience, Star Trek is , and always has been, a multi-faceted storytelling box. It can have action, adventure, horror, drama, comedy and Western. It has a framework of optimism of the potential for growth, but not always to achieve it (cue Kirk's meant to struggle speech).

So, now my bigger question, not as a controversial opinion, but one born out of true curiosity, if a bit frustrated and testy at this point: who is the most qualified to run a Star Trek show? What are the stipulations? Because, it feels to me (there's that four letter word again!) that fans are convinced they can run it better, yet cannot nail down the specific requirements.
 
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