Your postmortem thoughts on DISCO
- Thread starter Charles Phipps
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indeed. We are all speculating on stuff like this. My guess is they don’t really care as long as people are subscribing and staying with P+. They realize stuff like Trek is gonna have complaints no matter what.
agreed. The Burn was fine, the cause was dumb. I also hated that a side effect was Earth leaving the a Federation. It felt to me like a ham fisted allegory for Donald Trump and his “America First”/Nationalist policies. Which they sorta doubled down with by having a real life politician of the opposite party show up as the President of Earth and rejoin the Federation.
agree to disagree. S1 is fine but too busy. S3 is good except for the cause of the Burn but S4 is probably the peak of the show. Everything works except for Tarka’s motivation.
Season One was incredibly frustrating in places, but interesting. Season Two pissed me off (as I am quite sure one can see in my posts from that era) and ultimately killed my interest. I tried watching Season Three out of (kind of morbid) curiosity for the radically new setting, but...
I haven't watched Four or Five. I might watch the very last episode just for the heck of it.
Overall, I'm "meh" on DSC. I will always be grateful that it began a new era, though.
I haven't watched Four or Five. I might watch the very last episode just for the heck of it.
Overall, I'm "meh" on DSC. I will always be grateful that it began a new era, though.
Wasn't there a thread on this forum just recently that asked if people liked early (S1/S2) or late (S3-S5) Discovery and more people liked early Discovery?
If the behind the scenes issues are to blame for the problems with Discovery, then why do people like S1/S2 more than S3-S5? S3-S5 was smooth sailing regarding behind the scenes issues.
Started off well, liked Michael as the underdog. Sadly, she became a Mary Due character. In later seasons, it was too formulating……. Series long big bad alien/concept, yet a 900 year old ship, with 900 year old characters can save the day. It’s like Christopher Columbus coming back and taking on a modern fleet……. A disappointing ending and really boring.
The show's tone and style varied between s1/2 and s3-5 ... in season 1&2, the attempt to present a darker, grittier version of Star Trek was often visible, just think of Ash Tyler's rape trauma.
From s3 on, it became a much cosier show, the melodrama was pumped up and it felt much more like a show targeting youth and/or young adults.
From s3 on, it became a much cosier show, the melodrama was pumped up and it felt much more like a show targeting youth and/or young adults.
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Not everyone agrees with that assessment. And thread polls can vary from site to site.
I Think Discovery proved that Star Trek should be episodic. SNW strengthened that assertion and while Picard smothered us in glorious nostalgia with S3, the format of a 10-13 episode movie just doesn't work most of the time. This last season of Disco would have worked fine as a single episode or maybe a 2-parter. Instead it gets dragged out and this highlights some pretty terrible writing.
I was a pretty vocal defender of disco, but I think that was driven by the fact that a lot of the complaints came from bigots. The show was too over the top with a lot of the personal growth stuff. I am rewatching DS9 and that show had a lot of this too, but it wasn't so heavy-handed, or at least it didn't feel that way. Maybe that is because we had about 150 hours with the characters. Watching S5 of disco was kind of painful. The chase concept made no sense. The time bug made no sense. Both consumed an enormous amount of resources on the part of the designers for relatively little pay off. Teaching the commander to care about the crew was very cliche. I still don't even understand how he got demoted. He should have just lost his command and could have been a captain that was first officer. The whole thing was just boring.
The best season was S2 and that was because of Pike. So basically because they set up the Trek that fans really wanted.
The show did bring Trek back, but for me, it was the worst live action show. I'm glad it is done so they can use the resources to try something else.
I hope the Academy show learns from Disco. We can have longer arcs, but each episode needs to feel more contained and not just some filler to coat the few bits of plot they need to reveal to get to the end. Of the 8 seasons of 10 episode movie Trek, the only one that really worked for me from beginning to end was Picard S3. Every other season fell apart at the middle or end and suffered due to the format with episodes that felt like they gave us nothing until the end. Do what Doctor Who does if you need a season arc. Build up the mystery in episodes that stand alone subtly, then focus on the conclusion in the last 2 episodes. Or do what DS9 did, have a long arc and pepper in some clues and arc heavy episodes throughout the run. Or do what ENT did, have a bunch of 2 parters (instead of 4) that tell a slightly larger story than 1 episode but less than 10.
Very good point. When some 20 years ago, serialized shows became all the rage, with "Sopranos", "Dexter", "Breaking Bad" or "Battlestar Galactica", I was amazed how this format allows to tell stories with so much more depth than the old episodic or semi-episodic shows, and the idea was thrilling to get a Star Trek show in such a format.
But ... that only works when the writing is *really* good. If anything, the writers of DSC and PIC have proven they can't write season arcs. And when the construction of the arc is flawed, the entire season suffers, while a stinker here and there doesn't matter so much in an episodic show, because you know it will get better next week.
I still think that Enterprise Season 4's style of many 2 or 3 part episodes was really innovative storytelling and I wish they'd examine that style. It allowed them to have episodes with more complex characters and plots, but not be limited in scope to a single bloated storyline that audiences may or may not respond to.
Yes, I liked this format in ENT S4, too.
Another idea would be a mixed format, as in Doctor Who, where each episode tells a completed story, but the characters have arcs that span the entire season or beyond.
We have a lot of the same favorites.
One thing that is sadly true for me, in DISCO, is that there are a lot of mixed feelings. Even in episodes I generally favor, there is often times a negative. Something silly/stupid from supposedly smart people. It hits a plothole. Whatever you want to call it.
Project Deadalus is a fine example of an episode where the plotholes triumph, for me, at least.
I enjoyed Discovery, a fun and interesting new take in an established universe. It had some amazing episodes, some really bad ones. It tried some completely different things. Some worked, some didn't. Season 2 will probably remain my favorite.
It will most likely be the show I rewatch the least, but it certainly wasn't as horrific as some people claim it was.
It will most likely be the show I rewatch the least, but it certainly wasn't as horrific as some people claim it was.
Having said all that, and while I am still processing S5, I'd say the following are clearly my favorires, chronologically:
Season 1:
1. Context Is For Kings
2. Choose Your Pain
3. Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad
4. Into the Forest I Go (Pahvo eps as one)
Season 2
5. New Eden
6. If Memory Serves
Season 3
7. That Hope Is You, Part I (the ending)
8. People of Earth
9. Forget Me Not
10. Die Trying
11.-12. Terra Firma Parts I & II
Season 4
13. But To Connect...
14.-16. Rosetta > Species 10-C > Coming Home.
Honorable Mention:
Season 1
1. The Vulcan Hello
2. The Butcher's Knife Cares Not For the Lamb's Cry
3. Lethe
4. Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
5. Despite Yourself
6. The Wolf Inside
7. The War Without, The War Within
Season 2
8. Brother
9. Point of Light
10. An Obol for Charon
11. Through the Valley of Shadows
Season 3
12. Far From Home
13. Unification III
14. The Sancuary
15. There is a Tide...
Season 4
16. Anomaly
17. All is Possible
That is 33 of 65 right there. Many of those eps are flawed, whereas my favorites in other series would have less defects, less plotholes, less dumb decisions, etc. But also less emotional hits and character arc development.
If I went through with a fine toothed comb, and included S5, I am sure I'd generate a handful more. Over 35 and pushing 40. Out of 65 episodes? That is solid work.
Another thing I have found is that on repeated viewing, some of the flaws from the first viewing tend to bother me less. I do not get the phenomenon, and it is not DISCO-centric, it applies to other series as well (looking at you, Enterprise). It is like you are not as surprised/upset by the shortcomings, because you know they are coming.
IDK, YMMV.
I am certainly happy and grateful for DISCO's existence.
Season 1:
1. Context Is For Kings
2. Choose Your Pain
3. Magic to Make the Sanest Man Go Mad
4. Into the Forest I Go (Pahvo eps as one)
Season 2
5. New Eden
6. If Memory Serves
Season 3
7. That Hope Is You, Part I (the ending)
8. People of Earth
9. Forget Me Not
10. Die Trying
11.-12. Terra Firma Parts I & II
Season 4
13. But To Connect...
14.-16. Rosetta > Species 10-C > Coming Home.
Honorable Mention:
Season 1
1. The Vulcan Hello
2. The Butcher's Knife Cares Not For the Lamb's Cry
3. Lethe
4. Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum
5. Despite Yourself
6. The Wolf Inside
7. The War Without, The War Within
Season 2
8. Brother
9. Point of Light
10. An Obol for Charon
11. Through the Valley of Shadows
Season 3
12. Far From Home
13. Unification III
14. The Sancuary
15. There is a Tide...
Season 4
16. Anomaly
17. All is Possible
That is 33 of 65 right there. Many of those eps are flawed, whereas my favorites in other series would have less defects, less plotholes, less dumb decisions, etc. But also less emotional hits and character arc development.
If I went through with a fine toothed comb, and included S5, I am sure I'd generate a handful more. Over 35 and pushing 40. Out of 65 episodes? That is solid work.
Another thing I have found is that on repeated viewing, some of the flaws from the first viewing tend to bother me less. I do not get the phenomenon, and it is not DISCO-centric, it applies to other series as well (looking at you, Enterprise). It is like you are not as surprised/upset by the shortcomings, because you know they are coming.
IDK, YMMV.
I am certainly happy and grateful for DISCO's existence.
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The half-in, half-out of original continuity was NuTrek's "original sin" that Bryan Fuller admittedly did play a major part in. People who do care about continuity will hate it for haphazardly rewriting the past and go because of all these reasons, it has to be another alt-universe. Yet the people creating the shows will have some line of perceived canon they won't actually cross, limiting the potential of the new shows.
I think this question will come down to what ends up shaking out as the "Present Day" in Kurtzman era Trek. A super successful SNW potentially leads to a TOS reboot. SFA is clearly Kurtzman's baby, so I could see him wanting it to be the cornerstone of future spin offs.
PICARD took too long to become good, so by the time people wanted a 25th century spin off, the streaming bubble had burst and the momentum for Legacy was left standing in the game of musical chairs. Plus LOWER DECKS and PRODIGY have both been canceled. So we've suddenly gone from half of the content in production being years and decades (but not centuries!) post-NEM to none.
Yeah if you refuse to be bound by continuity, you shouldn't be able to create binding continuity at the same time. Fair is fair.
And just how much truth was reflected in the alternate license rumors (which even Mike McMahan alludes to in a commentary). If Kurtzman after his departure is due royalties and a percentage for content connected to him, it's much easier to wave away.
Some bullets were certainly dodged in avoiding a live action NuTrek crossover.
Ah that's right, especially considering S31's rumored place in the timeline.
Season 1 was Game of Thrones in Space designed to target a broad audience. Season 2 was Game of Thrones + proto-SNW + emotional soapies in Space... a roller coaster of ups and downs. Seasons 3-5 were Grey's Anatomy + CW YA in Space with a much more circumscribed defined target audience. If you aren't in that specific target audience, you cross into the threshold of near unwatchability.
I took this show for granted the whole time it was on and now I miss it.
It's like how people are better liked when they're dead.
It's like how people are better liked when they're dead.
Discovery proving serialization doesn't work is akin to saying flying doesn't work because of the Hindenburg.
It can and can't work just like any other format. The people in charge and the writers' room are the decisive factor.
While I believe there is room for different formats, I'd like to think Disco's end also marks the end of the mystery box format in Trek.
It can and can't work just like any other format. The people in charge and the writers' room are the decisive factor.
While I believe there is room for different formats, I'd like to think Disco's end also marks the end of the mystery box format in Trek.
As much as I'd like that to be true, I'm fulling expecting the Academy show to have one.
I don’t even think of 1 and 2 being the same. They’re very different from each other. I remember feeling that sense instantly in “Brother”. S1 was trying to be a gritty war storyline with TV-MA level violence and language like GAME OF THRONES. S2 then changes the whole tone by taking a far more jovial and adventurous approach, closer to the Kelvin films.
Depending upon various rights issues, and what can or can't be ironed out, that's a possibility as well.
