What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[at Quark's]

Her scenes in "BOUNTY" were particularly bad.

"You have the cure I need..."

Literally porn dialogue.

To be fair, the very concept of Pon Farr ('mate or die') already sounds like a (bad) excuse for such a scene, so the guilt perhaps isn't 100% on ENT.

The changes between the TOS Klingons and the TMP - DS9 Klingons did not need an explaination, however I enjoy the ENT episodes and its a good in universe explaination.

I still think DS9's solution was far superior - ('we do NOT discuss it with outsiders', which I took as a cue from the produces telling us: 'do you really worry about such trivialities? Ditch it and just enjoy the show!')

 

[Tallguy]

I still think DS9's solution was far superior - ('we do NOT discuss it with outsiders', which I took as a cue from the produces telling us: 'do you really worry about such trivialities? Ditch it and just enjoy the show!')

It was so perfect. It was all we ever needed.

 

[Farscape One]

To be fair, the very concept of Pon Farr ('mate or die') already sounds like a (bad) excuse for such a scene, so the guilt perhaps isn't 100% on ENT.



I still think DS9's solution was far superior - ('we do NOT discuss it with outsiders', which I took as a cue from the produces telling us: 'do you really worry about such trivialities? Ditch it and just enjoy the show!')

Regarding the pon farr...

You can take any concept or idea that sounds terrible, sexist, stupid, racist, or anything and make it not be that way. TOS didn't make it so blatantly soft core pornish in "AMOK TIME", and while it was a pretty bad episode, "BLOOD FEVER" was not the cringeworthy lust fest of "BOUNTY". (Which is somewhat ironic, since Roxann Dawson directed this one and she was the center in "BLOOD FEVER".) The execution of the pon farr idea here is completely on this show. I want to say it's more the UPN suits' fault than the writers, but I have no direct evidence of it. Though it's very likely, given the extra gratuitous body shots of various episodes used in the decon chamber.

 

[fireproof78]

"Blood Fever" is awful and I cannot stand it.

 

[Starry-eyed]

The record is quite clear that Seven was conceived as a Borg first, "Borg babe" second. The idea of "Borg babe" was contributed by Berman after listening to the pitch from Braga of a Borg character that had been approved by Menosky. From https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Seven_of_Nine#Background_information:

The concept of Seven of Nine began while Brannon Braga was sitting at home, late one night, and saw a televised promotion for the Borg-centric third season installment "Unity". (Braving the Unknown: Season Four, VOY Season 4 DVD; Cinefantastique, Vol. 30, No. 9/10, p. 75) The idea of having a Borg crewman aboard the starship Voyager – a notion that instantly appealed to Braga – occurred to him as he was watching the advertisement. (Cinefantastique, Vol. 30, No. 9/10, p. 75) He then brought the character concept to the attention of fellow writer Joe Menosky. Braga later remembered, "I called Joe Menosky, and pitched this idea, and he thought it was a great idea. And then we talked about it and all the things… 'What would that mean, to have a Borg character?' It would be really cool." (Braving the Unknown: Season Four, VOY Season 4 DVD) Braga also related, "I called Joe Menosky and we brainstormed. I wanted to make sure it wasn't a stupid idea." (Cinefantastique, Vol. 30, No. 9/10, p. 75) After Menosky approved of the concept, Braga called Executive Producer Rick Berman. "It was late, but I was so excited […] He really liked the idea but he had the stroke of genius, 'Make it a Borg babe,'" said Braga. "And we just talked about it, for a couple hours, and we just thought, 'This is a really cool idea. This could be really... just the thing we need.'" (Braving the Unknown: Season Four, VOY Season 4 DVD) This marathon conversation between Berman and Braga took place in the spring of 1997. (A Vision of the Future - Star Trek: Voyager, p. 348) Berman was not the only executive producer to whom Braga suggested the idea of a Borg crew member, however. "I […] took it in to Rick Berman and Jeri Taylor," Braga said, "and they liked the idea." (Cinefantastique, Vol. 30, No. 9/10, p. 75) Taylor herself commented, "The idea of having a female Borg was one of those that came largely through spontaneous combustion. It started with Brannon, and quickly gained a great deal of support." (A Vision of the Future - Star Trek: Voyager, p. 348)​

This contradicts your assertion that that "everyone" involved with the creation of the character had created Seven in order to bring sex appeal to the show.

Also, it's good form to refer to women by their surnames when you refer to all the men by their surnames, especially when you don't know them.

No it doesn't. The fact they described to their borg creation borg as a "Borg Babe,'" says it all. They could have said "yes a female borg" but they didn't. They were pretty clear on what they wanted her selling point to be. They wanted a borg, but they wanted a borg who could sell sex appeal & the costuming & selling of the character showed that. By "Day of honor" she had been transformed from a borg drone to the "borg babe" they wanted. So they knew exactly what they wanted & how the character was going to be received. Everything is visual first & Seven catsuit made the impact they wanted.

And before they fired Jennifer Lien they did make changes to Kes costume. Giving thr character looking hair & a bodysuit in a way to make her more appealing to the male demo. Before the "Borg Babe" who filled out the bodysuit better replaced her.

Also i do know their names, I tend to refer to actors by their first names & producers / crew by their surnames.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

No it doesn't. The fact they described to their borg creation borg as a "Borg Babe,'" says it all. They could have said "yes a female borg" but they didn't. They were pretty clear on what they wanted her selling point to be. They wanted a borg, but they wanted a borg who could sell sex appeal & the costuming & selling of the character showed that. By "Day of honor" she had been transformed from a borg drone to the "borg babe" they wanted. So they knew exactly what they wanted & how the character was going to be received. Everything is visual first & Seven catsuit made the impact they wanted.

And before they fired Jennifer Lien they did make changes to Kes costume. Giving thr character looking hair & a bodysuit in a way to make her more appealing to the male demo. Before the "Borg Babe" who filled out the bodysuit better replaced her.

And yet, there is Taylor, directly quoted, describing Seven not as a "Borg babe," but as "a female Borg," saying exactly what you said "they" didn't say.

And yet, there is the term "Borg babe" being ascribed to Berman alone, not to "they."

And yet, there is the conception of the character not being described as having anything to do with sex.

Your narrative is contradicted by the facts.

 

[Lord Garth]

Captain Kangaroo looks kind of like TOS Movie Scotty.

 

[at Quark's]

Regarding the pon farr...

You can take any concept or idea that sounds terrible, sexist, stupid, racist, or anything and make it not be that way. TOS didn't make it so blatantly soft core pornish in "AMOK TIME", and while it was a pretty bad episode, "BLOOD FEVER" was not the cringeworthy lust fest of "BOUNTY". (Which is somewhat ironic, since Roxann Dawson directed this one and she was the center in "BLOOD FEVER".) The execution of the pon farr idea here is completely on this show. I want to say it's more the UPN suits' fault than the writers, but I have no direct evidence of it. Though it's very likely, given the extra gratuitous body shots of various episodes used in the decon chamber.

Well, it's not my intention to say they had no blame. Just that perhaps it isn't only ENT's fault. I still think the concept itself is an 'invitation' to go that route, even if it's possible to present it in a way that's not sexist, and all the other adjectives you mentioned. It's simply that earlier series makers didn't go that low.

But I agree, execution might be 80% of it.

 

[BK613]

Not into the BTS of VOY/ENT like some of you are but I gotta ask: Are Ryan and/or Blalock on record about how they felt about wearing the catsuits?

 

[Starry-eyed]

And yet, there is Taylor, directly quoted, describing Seven not as a "Borg babe," but as "a female Borg," saying exactly what you said "they" didn't say.

And yet, there is the term "Borg babe" being ascribed to Berman alone, not to "they."

And yet, there is the conception of the character not being described as having anything to do with sex.

Your narrative is contradicted by the facts.

Yet in Nana Visitor's new book 'A Women's Trek'. Nana interviewed Jeri Taylor & she said she had no imput with Seven Of Nine character.

Also Jeri Ryan herself commented on her character being brought in for sex appeal & the fitting of the costume told her that right way.
.
"I knew exactly what I was in for when I had my first costume fitting. Clearly my character was added to the show for sex appeal, which remains the one way to get attention very quickly. I don't think it's the only way to get viewers to watch strong women, but it worked."

My feeling is that tptb & the producers just got lucky that Jeri Ryan actually had some acting ability. If she hadn't, it would have been a huge disaster. Also its kinda icky that Brandon Braga created Seven, cast the actress and then hooked with the actress who played his fanstay. Its pretty much 'Weird Science' come to life for him.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yet in Nana Visitor's new book 'A Women's Trek'. Nana interviewed Jeri Taylor & she said she had no imput with Seven Of Nine character.

Also Jeri Ryan herself commented on her character being brought in for sex appeal & the fitting of the costume told her that right way.
.
"I knew exactly what I was in for when I had my first costume fitting. Clearly my character was added to the show for sex appeal, which remains the one way to get attention very quickly. I don't think it's the only way to get viewers to watch strong women, but it worked."

My feeling is that tptb & the producers just got lucky that Jeri Ryan actually had some acting ability. If she hadn't, it would have been a huge disaster.

I don't think that anyone is denying that sex appeal was a large part of the equation. However, it was not the only part of the equation as you're suggesting, and it was not the originally conceived part of the equation.

There were dimensions that Seven's character that had nothing to do with sex appeal, that made her unique and interesting, in Spock's league, as has already been stated by others. She wouldn't be so enduring and interesting, if she were only a "Borg babe."

 

[Forbin]

OMG, why give a rat's red behind if we use first or last names to refer to a celebrity we're discussing??

 

[eschaton]

My feeling is that tptb & the producers just got lucky that Jeri Ryan actually had some acting ability. If she hadn't, it would have been a huge disaster. Also its kinda icky that Brandon Braga created Seven, cast the actress and then hooked with the actress who played his fanstay. Its pretty much 'Weird Science' come to life for him.

There's a really solid argument that Braga's affair with Ryan resulted in Barack Obama becoming president.

 

[Starry-eyed]

I don't think that anyone is denying that sex appeal was a large part of the equation. However, it was not the only part of the equation as you're suggesting, and it was not the originally conceived part of the equation.

There were dimensions that Seven's character that had nothing to do with sex appeal, that made her unique and interesting, in Spock's league, as has already been stated by others. She wouldn't be so enduring and interesting, if she were only a "Borg babe."

So you agree, the main point of the characters introducation was sex appeal & then everything else came later.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So you agree, the main point of the characters introducation was sex appeal & then everything else came later.

I most certainly did not say that. I completely disagree, and I've said the opposite multiple times now.

 

[BillJ]

Seven of Nine (Voyager version), is probably the third most interesting character in the franchise, behind Kirk and Spock.

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

Seven of Nine (Voyager version), is probably the third most interesting character in the franchise, behind Kirk and Spock.

You could seriously make a drinking game for how many minutes go by before she tells a shipmate ''You will fail.''

 

[Nyotarules]

Despite his pompous manner Picard is right about pre United Earth humanity

 

[fireproof78]

There were dimensions that Seven's character that had nothing to do with sex appeal, that made her unique and interesting, in Spock's league, as has already been stated by others. She wouldn't be so enduring and interesting, if she were only a "Borg babe."

No, but unfortunately it detracts. It did when I attempted to watch Voyager as a teen, and it does now. Regardless of how she was conceived as a character, what was presented through marketing painted a different story.

Thankfully, the actress could rise above some of that, and work well with a lot of the material (eh, when it was good), but that doesn't change first impressions.

 

[Nyotarules]

I'm watching Terra Prime. I wish the script had saved Baby Elizabeth, she was too cute!