What does "Remain Klingon" mean to you?

[fireproof78]

Hell no it wasn't.

It make them aliens. They are aliens. Let them be aliens.

As for bat'leths, anybody ever worked with knives or swords? The variety of those is absurd. I don't see people complaining about humans making "mistakes" in their terminology.

But Disco seemed like they changed it just to change it.

So...TMP then?

I know, I know, it's a tired, and belabored dead and buried horse at this moment. But the rational behind that change is the exact same as what was done in Discovery. It was different because they had the money to do it. If one studies human history and phenotypes one will find huge variety in ship design, weapon design, armor, and clothing. It is not uniform. Why are Klingons?

 

[Cr0sis21]

Hell no it wasn't.

It make them aliens. They are aliens. Let them be aliens.

As for bat'leths, anybody ever worked with knives or swords? The variety of those is absurd. I don't see people complaining about humans making "mistakes" in their terminology.


So...TMP then?

I know, I know, it's a tired, and belabored dead and buried horse at this moment. But the rational behind that change is the exact same as what was done in Discovery. It was different because they had the money to do it. If one studies human history and phenotypes one will find huge variety in ship design, weapon design, armor, and clothing. It is not uniform. Why are Klingons?

It's about consistency. And logic.
Why call it a bat'leth, for instance, if it doesn't look like a bat'leth? It's like pulling out a scimitar and calling it a katana. Why make all the Klingons hairless? That's not exactly something that was ever restricted by budget (See: General Chang).
It did what a narrative should not do: focus the audience's attention on insignificant details. TMP got a pass because the Klingons showed up for all of 5 minutes. But when your whole first season is dependent on Klingons, you do yourself no favors by alienating a portion of your audience with strange, unnecessary changes.
There was no need to make Klingons more "alien". That's not why people watch Star Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

There was no need to make Klingons more "alien". That's not why people watch Star Trek.

That's why this person watches Star Trek.

 

[F. King Daniel]

T'Kuvma is a character that was cut short in his existence far too soon and seems to have been a character a lot of audiences dismiss as just an evil reactionary. Certainly, he was a deeply flawed character but I also think of him more like Gowron rather than Duras. He's a character with intense biases but an awareness of the self-destructive nature of the Klingon Empire with a plan to, as Henry V would put it, "mire his enemies in foreign quarrels."

But what is his ideology really and how valuable is it?

It was Klingon for "Make America great again!"

I'm sure T'Kuvma's hats were manufactured on Romulus.

 

[Cr0sis21]

That's why this person watches Star Trek.

Really? You must hate the stereotypical bumpy foreheads, then.
Honestly, if you're watching for really alien aliens, you're better off with Star Wars.

 

[fireproof78]

Really? You must hate the stereotypical bumpy foreheads, then.
Honestly, if you're watching for really alien aliens, you're better off with Star Wars.

Yes, I do not enjoy a lot of bumpy foreheads. But, it isn't just the alien makeup, but also culture and development. Giving them some measure of, albeit limited, depth.

And it's not a matter of "hate." It's a matter of what hooks me in. The Klingons, post ENT, did almost nothing for me. Like, I would switch off an episode to not watch the Klingons. Into Darkness helped a little bit, and then Discovery offered something actually new that I didn't fully know about the Klingons. it was enjoyable, interesting and drew me in. It showed depth of culture, and different designs, rather than the one size fits all presentation over the last several decades. It said there was consequences to the ENT decision around the Augment virus and Klingons responded in different ways. There are different views on how to respond to the Federation. It feels like a living culture, vs. a "We must go to war because we are Klingons."

And, honestly, it's not just looking alien, but offering a different point of view. And Discovery does.

 

[Quantum21]

Really? You must hate the stereotypical bumpy foreheads, then.
Honestly, if you're watching for really alien aliens, you're better off with Star Wars.

Star Trek has better aliens. Conceptually at least, they have wider range, more types, more non-humanoids.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Star Trek has better aliens. Conceptually at least, they have wider range, more types, more non-humanoids.

Well, yes, that's clear to everyone.
I was referring more to the argument that the Klingons in Disco needed to have their makeup changed to look "more alien", because that's really not what Star Trek is about.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Yes, I do not enjoy a lot of bumpy foreheads. But, it isn't just the alien makeup, but also culture and development. Giving them some measure of, albeit limited, depth.

And it's not a matter of "hate." It's a matter of what hooks me in. The Klingons, post ENT, did almost nothing for me. Like, I would switch off an episode to not watch the Klingons. Into Darkness helped a little bit, and then Discovery offered something actually new that I didn't fully know about the Klingons. it was enjoyable, interesting and drew me in. It showed depth of culture, and different designs, rather than the one size fits all presentation over the last several decades. It said there was consequences to the ENT decision around the Augment virus and Klingons responded in different ways. There are different views on how to respond to the Federation. It feels like a living culture, vs. a "We must go to war because we are Klingons."

And, honestly, it's not just looking alien, but offering a different point of view. And Discovery does.

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what Discovery added to the Klingons that's any different than what we've seen on other shows.
Inner turmoil between houses? Check. (TNG)
Viewing the Federation as something that will passively subvert their culture? Check. (Star Trek 6)
Using war as a way to artificially manufacture unity? Check. (DS9)
Using human-looking secret agents to sow discord? Check. (TOS)
In fact, they actively avoided two of the most intriguing concepts for Klingons that have barely been touched upon: the idea that Klingon society is unsustainable and doomed to fail (DS9), and the idea that the warrior class has pushed out all other professions to their detriment (ENT).

It's not that the Klingon story in Disco was bad. It wasn't. I liked it. But to claim it was new or added nuance to established lore is stretching it at best.

 

[Tuskin38]

My favourite detail is that on T'Kuvma's ship there is a a version of Kahless's Story of the Promise that is engraved on the floor. In Klingon, not just Klingon letters applied to english.

https://klingon.wiki/En/SarcophagusPlinth

 

[fireproof78]

It's not that the Klingon story in Disco was bad. It wasn't. I liked it. But to claim it was new or added nuance to established lore is stretching it at best.

Agree to disagree. They felt more like a culture of different individuals and variety in their expression rather than one style.

 

[FredH]

The Klingons were they only race that got such drastic redesigns from TOS.

coughtellaritescough

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

A Klingon empire free of outside influences.

Not possible. All contact with any other culture is an influence.

Me, "Remain Klingon" just sounds like more Trump-ist bullshit. The Klingon Empire has existed for millennia, has been allies with the Federation for a long time, and has never ceased to be Klingon. I don't doubt there are, even after T'Kuvma, demagogues which spout buillshit like this, but they're wrong. The Federation's alliance with the Empire does not make it less Klingon.

And T'Kuvma's claims were crap anyway. The Federation does not in any sense have dishonorable intentions. It has the RIGHT to make its case to potential members, but if they are refused, they walk away. They really DO come in peace.

T'Kuvma is just Trump with ridges.

 

[BillJ]

Nothing. It is religious gibberish designed to inflame the masses.

 

[fireproof78]

Not possible. All contact with any other culture is an influence.

Of course it's not possible. I didn't say it was. I responded to a fear of outsiders that is reflective in the Klingons and echos culture across humanity history for a long time.

This is not trying to understand a Klingon perspective; this is demanding the Klingons view the Federation like we view the Federation.

 

[Tuskin38]

basically the same motives Chang and his associates (on both sides) had in ST6.

Nicholas Meyer was a consulting producer on season 1. Maybe that came from him.

 

[MikHutch]

Remain Klingon reminds me of the hypocrisy of Klingons: we'll invade everyone else but God forbid our culture come under 'threat.' the laughable hypocrisy of imperialistic bigots

i just wish Disco did a better job of elaborating on it.

 

[Quantum21]

Remain Klingon reminds me of the hypocrisy of Klingons: we'll invade everyone else but God forbid our culture come under 'threat.' the laughable hypocrisy of imperialistic bigots

i just wish Disco did a better job of elaborating on it.

With some irony, the attempt at increasing Klingon depth in Discovery meant that the different species that were taken over, bred with and absorbed into the various states of the Empire evidenced in the different houses and makeups in the series showed a breathtaking amount of hypocrisy.

They didn't have much time to explore it, but they did get some of their background from here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Reflection

 

[MikHutch]

With some irony, the attempt at increasing Klingon depth in Discovery meant that the different species that were taken over, bred with and absorbed into the various states of the Empire evidenced in the different houses and makeups in the series showed a breathtaking amount of hypocrisy.

They didn't have much time to explore it, but they did get some of their background from here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Reflection

Did canon Trek borrow anything from this?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Did canon Trek borrow anything from this?

From the wiki linked

The 2017 TV series Star Trek: Discovery officially canonized at least one element introduced in the novel, the "Black Fleet" (as part of the Klingon spiritual belief in the afterlife) in its premiere episode, "The Vulcan Hello."

Season 2 of Star Trek: Picard canonized the main character when the Federation fleet arrives and one of the ships is the USS Rustazh (NCC-86503) an Inquiry-class Federation starship in service to Starfleet during the early 25th century. The ship was later seen in Season 3 as well. Production Designer Dave Blass noted that the ship was named after Krenn sutai-Rustazh as a nod to the book.