What is happening with Star Trek literature?

[Greg Cox]

Yeah if you define doom and gloom as any story in which a character ever dies or retires, you are going to have a hard time finding stories for you. No one is at their peak perpetually forever. It’s natural for stories to reflect that.

I admit I'm a sucker for stories about the Hero in Twilight: ROBIN AND MARIAN, THE LAST JEDI, The Dark Knight Returns, "Solomon Kane's Homecoming," Tennyson's "Ulysses," etc. Always something moving and bittersweet about them.

Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

It may also be available on disk at your local library.

It's funny. In these days of streaming, people seem to be forgetting that they can find newish books and videos at their neighborhood libraries. Everybody wants to just click on something instead.

Normally I would agree with, but with rising costs, both King and Sno-Isle libraries are cutting back on how many physical items they purchase.
Most of the Star Trek books are now "digital only", with only one physical of the Strange New Worlds novel to check out, and I'm 8th in line.
The same goes for DVDs and CDs. The website usually directs me to a digital copy on the Hoopla website, and even then, the Hoopla movie choices are limited. The Kanopy selection is better.

 

[Lynx]

Yeah, that's the irony. The books I recommended like THE LAST BEST HOPE and ROGUE ELEMENTS are two of the best Star Trek books ever written.

But you need to be familiar with Picard to enjoy them.

I'm not too fond of the PIC scenario, I mean

Spoiler: Picard

Who wants to read about android Picard?

If I want to read about Picard, I'll buy a TNG book from the days when the series was still going. Some of them are very good.

Yeah if you define doom and gloom as any story in which a character ever dies or retires, you are going to have a hard time finding stories for you. No one is at their peak perpetually forever. It’s natural for stories to reflect that.

The sad thing is that I used to find such books back in the days when TNG, DS9 and VOY were aired on TV.

Is it absolutely necessary to write about a retired Riker, living on a mountaintop in Alaska or an ailing Miles O'Brien in some isolated Irish village or hypochondriac stories about this old favorite suffering from tis or that old favorite suffering from that? I'm not the slightest interested in what they are doing after 2390.

If stories are made in a timeline in the future, just leave those old favorites alone and invent new characters instead and don't destroy those old favorites the way it's constantly being done in the books now.

This point has been raised in the past, especially in the context of Kes, who, with a nine-year lifespan and an age of two at the start of the show, seemed to be set up to go through the entire arc of a lifetime over the course of a seven-year television show. That would not have been an acceptable storyline for him.

(I still haven't gotten that debate I've been waiting for from Team "Everyone Must Always Whither and Die in Stories" versus Team "No One May Ever Whither or Die in Stories.")

I know, I have not only criticized the way Kes was dumped in season 3 of VOY and how she was humilated and destroyed in a certain episode in season 6 of VOY but also criticized the silly nine-year lifespan which was an obstruction to the character.

Not to mention that it took me five minutes to get rid of the lifespan problem and one minute to correct the damage made to the character in that insulting season 6 episode.

Except for my writing efforts, it seems to be easiier to ruin a character than to restore a character. Why?

I don't begrudge @Lynx their opinion.

Happy endings and an uplifting attitude is good for TrekLit.

It's also the same complaints I voiced about TrekLit at the end--it had gotten too dark and depressing with things like Destiny. At least IMHO.

As for dark and depressing, it might be a sign of the times we live in. Every movie and series seem to be dark and depressing and it obviously affects literature too.

Why get upset about these developments?
As we saw with the Coda books,nothing is written in stone.
Characters that we all love,like Garak are essentially frozen in amber until Paramount(or whoever actually controls all this) decide otherwise.
All the great stories and developments that took place in the Litverse were effectively undone by Coda ,and probably will be again.The books you are getting upset about are just as liable to be superseded in time.
Personally I haven’t jumped back into any Treklit since and probably won’t at this stage.

Well, then I might start buying books again in some distant future.

 

[Elwro]

I have read dozens of ST novels and I don't see anything worrying about the current ones. Actually, they seem to be more worked out, more carefully, meticulously conceived, when compared, say, to the old numbered TNG paperbacks (some of which I like very much). Dr. McCormack's novels are among the best tie-ins I've read. They always include something 'external' to the, well, 'Trek stuff', some important topic that makes the story more real to me. When reading 'The Last Best Hope' it's impossible not to think about the migration - related risks to bodies such as the European Union, and about the division of responsibility during a crisis. 'Wonderlands' is partially about deciphering the signs left by the civilizations before ours. And 'Second Self' is about a difficult coda to a difficult life led by a difficult character. (And also about the roles played by 'peacekeeping' forces such as the Blue Helmets).

Also, 'Rogue Elements' by JJ Miller is what should've inspired Picard's 2nd season. His work on the characters was masterful. (No, no android Picard there.)

I really don't see a reason for the negativity towards the novels.

 

[Relayer1]

I mean

Spoiler: Picard

Who wants to read about android Picard?

If I want to read about Picard, I'll buy a TNG book from the days when the series was still going.

Is it absolutely necessary to write about a retired Riker, living on a mountaintop in Alaska or an ailing Miles O'Brien in some isolated Irish village or hypochondriac stories about this old favorite suffering from tis or that old favorite suffering from that? I'm not the slightest interested in what they are doing after 2390.

Mileage obviously differs.

A primary attraction of Treklit for me was "What happened next ?". The relaunch filled that niche in a way that set during the show "everything back in the box by the end" never never could.

There were some notable exceptions (Hollow Men for instance) but there's not that much interest in additional episodes type novels for me.

So yes, writing about android Picard, retired Riker or ailing Miles will always be what I want, not a book from the days when the series was still going.

 

[Lynx]

Mileage obviously differs.

A primary attraction of Treklit for me was "What happened next ?". The relaunch filled that niche in a way that set during the show "everything back in the box by the end" never never could.

There were some notable exceptions (Hollow Men for instance) but there's not that much interest in additional episodes type novels for me.

So yes, writing about android Picard, retired Riker or ailing Miles will always be what I want, not a book from the days when the series was still going.

Which is the absolute opposite to what I want to read about.

I want to remember my favorites from the time they were at their prime.

 

[Relayer1]

Which is the absolute opposite to what I want to read about.

I want to remember my favorites from the time they were at their prime.

We're all different and all tastes are valid.

I'd say you're likely to be better served with "set during the show" stuff since the relaunch continuity ended. Anything not set firmly in an established and tightly restricted period is liable to be contradicted in short order. As has happened already with early Disco novels.

If you're unhappy with Garak's fate, be patient - there will be another one along at some point. I'm awaiting developments with Project Phoenix...

 

[Avro Arrow]

I'm awaiting developments with Project Phoenix...

Please, no. Best to treat that as just some silly easter egg, rather than anything that needs to be followed up on.

 

[Lynx]

Why get upset about these developments?
As we saw with the Coda books,nothing is written in stone.
Characters that we all love,like Garak are essentially frozen in amber until Paramount(or whoever actually controls all this) decide otherwise.
All the great stories and developments that took place in the Litverse were effectively undone by Coda ,and probably will be again.The books you are getting upset about are just as liable to be superseded in time.
Personally I haven’t jumped back into any Treklit since and probably won’t at this stage.

Can you please give me some examples how everything in Litverse was undone by Coda?
You can publish a spoiler.

 

[flandry84]

Um..
Well see..everything just kinda went away.Permanently.

I know you are upset with how things went for Garak especially but TBH I thought the character was ill -served by later books anyway.It kinda bothered me that this shadow warrior,spy,secret policeman,assassin should morph into a cuddly “president of the people”.That didn’t match with my opinion of the guy at all.
And that Cardassia,the war devastated home of paranoia and state police suddenly morphed into Berkeley Ca.

 

[David cgc]

Can you please give me some examples how everything in Litverse was undone by Coda?
You can publish a spoiler.

Spoiler: Coda

The entire universe was collapsed and everyone died, often horribly, in order to preserve the rest of the multiverse, specifically and explicitly the new streaming shows set after Nemesis.

Take it from me, your reaction of "How dare Garek live to be over a hundred and die peacefully in his bed, a beloved old man surrounded by people he saved who respect and cherish him!" or "What a monstrous act to have a character retire from their stressful job! Grimdark!" is a bit ridiculous compared to some of the genuinely horrific things that happened in Coda, where dozens of characters weren't career murderers died in genuine horror and agony doing things that turned out to be genuinely futile.

 

[Relayer1]

Please, no. Best to treat that as just some silly easter egg, rather than anything that needs to be followed up on.

I'd rather treat Generations as the turd that it was and forget all about it.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Yeah, they did as much as they could with Coda to reset continuity but it left me feeling sour given so many fictional friends got Crisis on Infinite Earthed.

 

[Lynx]

Spoiler: Coda

The entire universe was collapsed and everyone died, often horribly, in order to preserve the rest of the multiverse, specifically and explicitly the new streaming shows set after Nemesis.

Take it from me, your reaction of "How dare Garek live to be over a hundred and die peacefully in his bed, a beloved old man surrounded by people he saved who respect and cherish him!" or "What a monstrous act to have a character retire from their stressful job! Grimdark!" is a bit ridiculous compared to some of the genuinely horrific things that happened in Coda, where dozens of characters weren't career murderers died in genuine horror and agony doing things that turned out to be genuinely futile.

How can someone come up with something so dreadful and disgusting?

Personally I want nothing to do with that "new scenario", a morbid sick creation made in the sick dystopian 21th century.

I don't want anything to do with anything Star Trek made after Nemesis.
I won't watch a single movie or series or won't buy a single book which are made after those new premises.

In the future, I'll stick to the 24th century series and books and add what I like to the Lynxverse, the Universe in which my own stories take place.

 

[bdub76]

I have read dozens of ST novels and I don't see anything worrying about the current ones. Actually, they seem to be more worked out, more carefully, meticulously conceived, when compared, say, to the old numbered TNG paperbacks (some of which I like very much). Dr. McCormack's novels are among the best tie-ins I've read. They always include something 'external' to the, well, 'Trek stuff', some important topic that makes the story more real to me. When reading 'The Last Best Hope' it's impossible not to think about the migration - related risks to bodies such as the European Union, and about the division of responsibility during a crisis. 'Wonderlands' is partially about deciphering the signs left by the civilizations before ours. And 'Second Self' is about a difficult coda to a difficult life led by a difficult character. (And also about the roles played by 'peacekeeping' forces such as the Blue Helmets).

Also, 'Rogue Elements' by JJ Miller is what should've inspired Picard's 2nd season. His work on the characters was masterful. (No, no android Picard there.)

I really don't see a reason for the negativity towards the novels.

I’ve read two of Una’s books. The first was the prequel for Picard, which I found to be excellent and could have easily been longer or have a follow up book. Then I read her Never Ending Sacrifice, which I didn’t care for. And I think that’s more a function of my age. I find that some books read differently to me the older I get. This is one of them.

 

[David Mack]

How can someone come up with something so dreadful and disgusting?

You should probably take into account that he is presenting his subjective and, in my opinion, grossly inaccurate and deeply misleading description of the Coda trilogy's plot and themes.

 

[David cgc]

I understand being offended by Lynx's characterization of you (and James and Dayton) based on a pithy summation aimed at undercutting his exaggerated, misinformed, and out-of-proportion reaction to other books, but it's really obvious that he would absolutely hate Coda more than anyone else on this board and I think it's a bad idea for everyone involved to try and suggest otherwise.

Lynx has been very clear about what he likes and what he doesn't, not just over the lifetime of the board, but on this page of this thread. Coda was unambiguously more violent than Second Self and the Janeway autobiography. It definitely upset the status quo. It was absolutely not an adventurous romp with our favorite characters in their prime, even if you expand "prime" include the kind of acts euphemistically referred to as "their finest hour" (a term which Lynx definitely would not agree with in general and certainly not in particular).

Frankly, Lynx would probably react even more negatively to Coda if it was described thematically than he did from me stating its functional outcome and adding that it was a very violent story compared to the very non-violent ones he's already excoriating as emblematic of our degenerate, fallen age.

 

[Greg Cox]

I understand being offended by Lynx's characterization of you (and James and Dayton) based on a pithy summation aimed at undercutting his exaggerated, misinformed, and out-of-proportion reaction to other books, but it's really obvious that he would absolutely hate Coda more than anyone else on this board and I think it's a bad idea for everyone involved to try and suggest otherwise..

I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a relative some years back.

ME: "I just saw that new movie. I loved it."

THEM: "Would I like it?"

ME: "Absolutely not."

Both my statements were accurate.

 

[David Mack]

I understand being offended by Lynx's characterization of you (and James and Dayton) based on a pithy summation aimed at undercutting his exaggerated, misinformed, and out-of-proportion reaction to other books, but it's really obvious that he would absolutely hate Coda more than anyone else on this board and I think it's a bad idea for everyone involved to try and suggest otherwise.

Lynx has been very clear about what he likes and what he doesn't, not just over the lifetime of the board, but on this page of this thread. Coda was unambiguously more violent than Second Self and the Janeway autobiography. It definitely upset the status quo. It was absolutely not an adventurous romp with our favorite characters in their prime, even if you expand "prime" include the kind of acts euphemistically referred to as "their finest hour" (a term which Lynx definitely would not agree with in general and certainly not in particular).

Frankly, Lynx would probably react even more negatively to Coda if it was described thematically than he did from me stating its functional outcome and adding that it was a very violent story compared to the very non-violent ones he's already excoriating as emblematic of our degenerate, fallen age.

I agree with all of that. Mostly, I take issue with your characterization of the heroes' sacrifices in Coda as "futile." Objectively, they were not futile — they saved the multiverse from sharing their fate. Their heroism isn't worth less just because most of the countless realities they saved won't know of their actions; if anything, a true measure of heroism is what our heroes are willing to do without expecting any reward or recognition, simply because it is the right thing to do. Coda is about raging against the dying of the light; it's about going down swinging and knowing that what you've done matters, even if no one else remembers it. It is the essence of hopefulness.

 

[David cgc]

I agree with all of that. Mostly, I take issue with your characterization of the heroes' sacrifices in Coda as "futile." Objectively, they were not futile — they saved the multiverse from sharing their fate. Their heroism isn't worth less just because most of the countless realities they saved won't know of their actions; if anything, a true measure of heroism is what our heroes are willing to do without expecting any reward or recognition, simply because it is the right thing to do. Coda is about raging against the dying of the light; it's about going down swinging and knowing that what you've done matters, even if no one else remembers it. It is the essence of hopefulness.

Well, we can go back and forth on that (and, collectively, we have, I've just been reviewing some of the Coda threads), but I wasn't intending to speak universally that every main character death in Coda was futile in the end (and just using the phrase "every main character death" says a lot in this context), though I see how the phrasing can make it seem like I was referring to the climax specifically. I was actually thinking of some of the blind alleys and red-herrings that were being pursued earlier in the trilogy where success at great cost still didn't achieve the expected goal.