If they had filmed "Hollow Pursuit" today, would Barclay have remained on the Enterprise at the end?

[Reymet_2]

Suggesting that there might be a “cure” for being transgender is highly problematic. Being transgender is not a disease or a condition that needs to be cured. It is a valid and legitimate aspect of a person's identity. Promoting the idea that being transgender is something that needs to be fixed or cured can contribute to harmful attitudes and discrimination against transgender individuals. It is important to respect and affirm the identities of trans people and support their rights to live authentically and with dignity.

What you have written is how it is seen in the West in early 21st century. In the mid and late 20th century it was not seen like that. And even now a significant part of the world doesn't.

I don't want to express my personal opinion on this topic, I just want to say that it's quite possible that some kind of backslash against trans rights (or even LGBT rights at all) would happen at some time between 21st and 24th centuries (in fact, in some countries it's happening right now).

 

[Michael]

What you have written is how it is seen in the West in early 21st century. In the mid and late 20th century it was not seen like that. And even now a significant part of the world doesn't.

I don't want to express my personal opinion on this topic, I just want to say that it's quite possible that some kind of backslash against trans rights (or even LGBT rights at all) would happen at some time between 21st and 24th centuries (in fact, in some countries it's happening right now).

Well, whatever fantasy world you personally prefer to concoct, no “backlash against trans rights”, not in the past and not in the future, changes anything about the fact that trans people exist and that it’s not some “illness” that needs to be “cured”, much like me feeling a strong aversion to bigoted transphobes doesn’t make them go away.

 

[Skipper]

Folks, not only are we risking going off-topic, but touching on topics that would go into the Mixanious or Neutral Zone.

Please don't let them block me another thread

 

[FederationHistorian]

I have a feeling that if Picard hadn't ordered Geordi to get to know him better it would have eventually led to Barclay probably being kicked out of Starfleet. Granted it might just at first be a transfer to another ship. One that is not the flagship. Eventually it would have caught up to him.

And if Barclay had been kicked out of Starfleet, Starfleet could end up look prudish.

What if Barclay met someone down the line that happened to into the same type of holodeck fantasies he was into, and it was their kink? Just because we never saw Barclay meet someone who was into the same things he does, doesn’t mean that person does not exists.

The issue of deepfakes of the crew then crosses the line into kink shaming, and then possibly a whole subculture developing.

 

[Jayson1]

And if Barclay had been kicked out of Starfleet, Starfleet could end up look prudish.

What if Barclay met someone down the line that happened to into the same type of holodeck fantasies he was into, and it was their kink? Just because we never saw Barclay meet someone who was into the same things he does, doesn’t mean that person does not exists.

The issue of deepfakes of the crew then crosses the line into kink shaming, and then possibly a whole subculture developing.

Only if he was kicked out for his fantasies. The thing that would have most likely got him kicked out would be his job performance. Had he not improved in that area.

 

[Skipper]

And if Barclay had been kicked out of Starfleet, Starfleet could end up look prudish.

No one is saying you will suffer consequences if you watch porn in your free time (that is, if it's of the legal variety). But I think many companies on this planet would have a very hard time keeping you working if during working hours and with important deadlines coming up you spend the time and company tools to create deepfake porn where you have sex with your female colleagues and humiliate your superiors.

It's not kink shaming. It's basic work ethics.

I assure you that even in many European countries where the worker is protected much more than in the States this would be enough for an immediate dismissal.

 

[Skipper]

I wonder if it's literally impossible to keep a personal holodeck "private" in the Star Trek universe? I mean, block other people from accessing your program. I honestly don't remember cases like this, that is to say that each character could enter a simulation made by another or relaunch it like Dr. Brahms did (the computer had no problem showing her Geordie's private erotic dream).

If this is the case, then Barclay is even more at fault, knowing that his colleagues could have easily accessed a simulation that would have embarrassed them.

And I don't think there is an "etiquette" that says you can't enter someone else's program without warning. I remember that we often saw uninvited people entering a simulation in progress.

 

[Farscape One]

In "FAIR HAVEN", Janeway was able to restrict access to any changes to Michael Sullivan at the end. While that is a part of a holodeck program, that does imply the ability to restrict others from accesing a program you made.

And besides, at the end of the day, holodeck programs are still just programs and files, and we have seen many instances of programs and files having restricted access by the creator or user of it. (We have that today.)

 

[Skipper]

And besides, at the end of the day, holodeck programs are still just programs and files, and we have seen many instances of programs and files having restricted access by the creator or user of it. (We have that today.)

So Barclay was just negligent and didn't take the necessary precautions to prevent others from seeing programs that were potentially embarrassing and/or offensive to them?

Is there a version of events in which he doesn't look bad?

 

[Farscape One]

So Barclay was just negligent and didn't take the necessary precautions to prevent others from seeing programs that were potentially embarrassing and/or offensive to them?

Is there a version of events in which he doesn't look bad?

Yes... the version where he didn't let his holodeck adventures affect his job.

 

[trekshark]

Because TNG was family-friendly, prime time TV, any allusions to sex or porn were just that - vague hints and allusions.
If Hollow Pursuits had been written to be explicit and rated R, I'd be a lot less sympathetic towards Barclay.

Yeah, I didn't really get that. He did make her flirty and maybe a little suggestive, but not actually sexual.
Actually yeah, I get it.
He had the computer recreate a real woman and change her personality to suit him.

He'd have been much better off having recreated Zimmerman.

Geordi didn't even intentionally make her flirty. He asked the computer something along the lines of "make her more lifelike using her logs and personality file".
Hmm, maybe the issue is how Geordi words commands. He didn't intend to make a sentient hologram either yet he ended up with one with Moriarty

 

[Skipper]

Because TNG was family-friendly, prime time TV, any allusions to sex or porn were just that - vague hints and allusions.

Someone didn't get the memo.

 

[Jayson1]

I wonder if it's literally impossible to keep a personal holodeck "private" in the Star Trek universe? I mean, block other people from accessing your program. I honestly don't remember cases like this, that is to say that each character could enter a simulation made by another or relaunch it like Dr. Brahms did (the computer had no problem showing her Geordie's private erotic dream).

If this is the case, then Barclay is even more at fault, knowing that his colleagues could have easily accessed a simulation that would have embarrassed them.

And I don't think there is an "etiquette" that says you can't enter someone else's program without warning. I remember that we often saw uninvited people entering a simulation in progress.

Problem is Trek never really put as much thought into these issues as we fans have and also you got decades of different writers coming up with contradicting ideas on how holograms are treated or should be. What should be private or not.

Ideally one's private holodeck programs should in theory be easy to protect by just making it so you need a password or something to access it. The only way to then in theory to invade someones private space would to in essence hack the system and get around someones password. Which would you think be illegal.

 

[BillJ]

Someone didn't get the memo.

From a time when they weren’t guaranteed more than 13 episodes, and Roddenberry was still in control.

 

[at Quark's]

He isn't a believable character in the universe he inhabits. That someone would be that utterly useless, makes it through the Harvard/Yale/West Point of the 24th century, then ends up with a cream position on the flagship of the Federation? But can't even be mindful enough to show up on time. I don't buy it.

Then the acting is pretty weak.

I never had the impression he was useless. He was portrayed as a highly intelligent crew member, just riddled with social anxieties and other insecurities and quirks to such a point that his 'bad spells' could render him nearly completely dysfunctional, yes. But we also see that when he does put his mind to the job at hand, he performs quite well. In better times (which he probably also had, as we all go through better and worse times), he probably would have been a quite valuable addition to any crew, including the Enterprise-D crew.

 

[matthunter]

In better times (which he probably also had, as we all go through better and worse times), he probably would have been a quite valuable addition to any crew, including the Enterprise-D crew.

Umm, probably?

He fucking saves the day in several episodes after this. Both on the E-D and elsewhere.

Ask the Voyager crew if he's valuable.

 

[Jayson1]

Barclay did make it to LT, when we first see him so he must have been doing things okay at some point. My theory is he started his career at a starbase or some planet based setting. This would be one of the ways of also avoiding having to use transporters that much. He might have been shy and all but it's not like a ship setting where your always on brink of encountering a dangerous situation that might kill you.

It wasn't until he got his first posting on a starship that his shyness started to become a issue. To a point where he previous Captain basically had to "butter Picard's bread" to get him assigned to the Enterprise. Which when you think about it was kind of a dick move by that Captain but thankfully for the sake of Barclay you had Picard who was not going to just pass the buck to someone else. He got Geordi to reach out to him, which ended up working out. He served the ship well and become a valuable crew member and basically it saved his career.

 

[Farscape One]

And he did well enough to get promoted from Lt. j.g. to full Lt. by FIRST CONTACT.

 

[Guy Gardener]

No one is saying you will suffer consequences if you watch porn in your free time (that is, if it's of the legal variety). But I think many companies on this planet would have a very hard time keeping you working if during working hours and with important deadlines coming up you spend the time and company tools to create deepfake porn where you have sex with your female colleagues and humiliate your superiors.

It's not kink shaming. It's basic work ethics.

I assure you that even in many European countries where the worker is protected much more than in the States this would be enough for an immediate dismissal.

Porn may be allowed in the future, but will any one in the Federation make porn if they are never addicted to heroin and never have to worry about paying for a roof above their heads....

"Alien nonFederation porn" or "Artificially generated Porn" or "ancient archived porn" that miraculousously survived the emp from WWIII, might be abundant, but a lack of new local contributors detracts from the art form.

Although if you are the only human making new real porn, then you are famous.

Fame is cool.

Future People might still like being famous, even if "rich" is not a thing anymore.

 

[Skipper]

Problem is Trek never really put as much thought into these issues as we fans have and also you got decades of different writers coming up with contradicting ideas on how holograms are treated or should be. What should be private or not.

It always gave me the impression that the holodeck was like someone playing a PlayStation game. It's not something particularly private and if someone wants to sit on the couch next to you and watch they don't even have to ask permission.