Questions:
1. Do you think that Harry's lack of character development was a positive?
2. If so... why, exactly?
Garrett Wang
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1. Do you think that Harry's lack of character development was a positive?
2. If so... why, exactly?
Positive perhaps because the writers didn't know what to do with him.
He ended up suffering from a similar problem Chakotay had... so it was maybe a good thing that Kim didn't get much character development as they could have messed him up even more?
Other than that, I don't think that Kim had that many 'distinguishing' moments on VOY to warrant a promotion.
We saw from 'Tapestry' in TNG that a person can do their duties with high proficiency and accuracy but still not get promoted for decades (As Picard seemingly was stuck for 'decades' as a Lt. because he took a 'safer route').
Kim may have gotten more active roles 2 episodes in a season... rest of the time it was just 'lull' for duties (aka, standard stuff mostly).
Perhaps he just didn't rack up that many distinguishing moments during his time on VOY to be promoted in the first 7 years (or at least Janeway and Chakotay didn't seem to think so) because (like alternate Picard) he was just doing his duty most of the time, but unlike alternate 'non risk taking' Picard, Kim did have distinguishing moments, so he may have just taken longer to advance in ranks (it wouldn't be uncommon - people on the fast track to captaincy are not very widespread - its possible the usual progression in ranks just takes longer).
In the Endgame timeline, VOY got back to the AQ in 2394. So, he likely already reached a rank of Commander on VOY by the time the ship got back in 2394, and then took mere 6 years (or 5.5 years) to get to Captain (unless he was promoted immediately because the ship and crew were both legendary as well so everyone had options to choose from).
So initial slower progression on-screen due to lack of character development and distinguishing moments to possibly warrant a promotion in the first 7 years. If he was promoted sometime in 7th year to Lt. Junior Grade, then he'd have 15.5 years to get to Commander (on 1 ship that was mainly heading back to the AQ... its not surprising it would take him that long).
Kim was fairly young in Caretaker. In Endgame, the ship took 23 years to get back to Federation space. Sources say that Kim was 22 when he was assigned to VOY.
So, when the ship got back in 2394, Kim would have been 45 and already attained a rank of Commander by then, and shortly after that, a rank of Captain.
Janeway was described as being in her early 40-ies when she became a captain of VOY.
So, yeah, it just seems that Kim was a bit slower on the progression curve compared to Janeway and being stuck in the DQ probably didn't help.
But hey, he became 'legendary' due to just being on the ship doing all he did (and he had to advance in the alternate timeline anyway)... so, when the ship got back earlier, you'd think he would advance quicker (but then things may have changed for Kim in the proceeding years and we don't know what he's been doing - Seven Joined the Fenris rangers and effectively gave up on joining SF at the time).
But take Chakotay for example. He was apparently 42 by the time he joined VOY crew (but he already held this rank before that)... so, Janeway simply reinstated his rank and then he got to Captain in Prodigy (which takes place in 2383).
Given that Chakotay would have been 49 by the time the ship reached the AQ with alteration of events in Endgame, he was then promoted to Captain sometime before 2383 (Prodigy implies he was promoted shortly before he got assigned to the Protostar - which would be 2381 or 2382 - we don't know how long the Protostar was in space exploring before it got hit by the Temporal anomaly).
And from Prodigy, Chakotay was still getting used to Janeway being promoted from Captain to Vice Admiral even though she's been an admiral since at least 2379 (ST: Nemesis).
Oh well, Kim seems to be on the same track route as Chakotay (who took a detour by becoming Maqui first for a couple of years), and then 7 years in the DQ back as a Commander.
Kim was side-tracked by being in the DQ, so less distinguishing moments for him on a ship that was travelling back home... which would have impacted his advancement somewhat while he was onboard.
In PIC S3, they intended to have him be a rank of Commander... which is even slower than alternate timeline in Endgame... but since he never made an appearance there, that hadn't been canonized, so hopefully, he will advance quicker (if that was still his desire - or he may have found a different occupation which kept him in the same position for longer and didn't see a need to advance quickly).
Still should have made J.G. at least.
Interesting perspective, one I don't share. Because Harry was brand new, developing him would be easy for any competent writer. Watching him end up the way he did is like watching a pro basketball player miss a slam dunk.
And in any case... no development was necessary. Just have a hollow pip on his collar in "Night". He'd still have been an ensign longer than any other major character (next one being Ogawa, with three years and change).
Been left in command multiple times? Helped Tom break W10? Helped design and build the Delta Flyer? Helped Seven build the astrometrics lab? Had Janeway declare that he had "exceeded all her expectations"? Had Chakotay describe him as "one of our best people"? Sheesh. You probably think that after Data saved the Federation from the Borg, he deserved to still be a LCDR, too.
That made no sense whatsoever. An officer who was inept enough to be stuck at LTJG after 35 years would more belong on the Cerritos.
I think Q might have been messing with Picard a little.
And sources say that Riker was 29 when he was offered his own ship.
His lack of character development was showrunner ineptitude, and had nothing to do with rank. And I already steamrolled your "no distinguished moments" argument.
They might not have been together much. He was probably a commander for awhile, and had a post elsewhere.
I never said Kim didn't deserve a promotion, merely that most of his roles you mentioned were supporting ones and that this in itself might not have been enough to promote him.
In-universe, Janeway may have considered promoting him in Season 5, but he ended up sleeping with that Varro alien and this may have killed that possibility in that season.
That's a possibility, but Picard never thought Q messed with him like this... Q merely showed Picard what his life would have been if he had taken a safe route and not taken any risks... and I guess that means that means that SF may be putting more emphasis on people who may distinguish themselves more... 'safe Picard' apparently never did this.
And when did Riker finish the Academy? How long was he an ensign, etc?
Riker seemed to have been on the fast track, but Kim wasn't... Kim was on a slower/longer progression route from the start it seems.
I never said he had no distinguishing moments. I said that the may not have had ENOUGH distinguishing moments (in universe) to get him a promotion of VOY.
At any rate, I was only offering potential in-universe explanations as to why he wasn't promoted - but showrunner ineptitude is a problem because it directly impacts the character they created.
Probably.
But I did notice that Paris did not advance in rank after coming back to the AQ. LD showed him as being a Lt. still (and a legend in SF).
In fact, Besides Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok (And most recently Seven), no one else from VOY was shown to have advanced in rank.
Though to be fair, we haven't heard much about Torres (except that she worked to develop SF version of the Dauntless in Prodigy).
Icheb was killed off in Pic S1, and I can't even recall if he advanced in rank beyond an ensign.
Except, staying at ensign for 5 years, much less 7, is the height of absurdity. As @Oddish notes, just put one hollow pip on his collar and BAM! over.
He's a division lead, in charge of operations of a whole starship, not under the supervision of a senior operations officer, and reports to the CO and XO directly. He is doing lieutenant level work without the benefit of a mentorship type situation that could be afforded under normal circumstances.
It's bass ackwards by any stretch in universe.
He's a division lead, in charge of operations of a whole starship, not under the supervision of a senior operations officer, and reports to the CO and XO directly. He is doing lieutenant level work without the benefit of a mentorship type situation that could be afforded under normal circumstances.
It's bass ackwards by any stretch in universe.
If I remember correctly, Paris was a full Lt. in his appearance on LOWER DECKS. So he did get promoted sometime after reaching Earth.
And Icheb was wearing Lt. pips in PICARD.
For in universe precedent, Chekov graduated as an Ensign and is full lieutenant after 7 years, moving two grades up.
Also, Nog went from Ensign to Lt. j.g. in a little under two years.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/William_T._Riker
Apparently, his use of the same skills was good enough to make him a shoo-in for lieutenant after eight months in the "Non Sequitur" timeline.
And besides, Janeway said he had EXCEEDED her expectations. Rationally, I would say that rates a promotion sooner rather than later or not at all.
When Janeway slapped him down in "Nightingale", no mention of that incident was made by either of them.
See "shoo-in for lieutenant after eight months". It's reasonable to assume that Kim would be on the same track in both timelines.
The captain and first officer thought he was awesome, and he assisted on two projects critical to the mission's success. If that (plus seven years service) isn't enough for a mere HOLLOW PIP, what the hell is?!
It wasn't a problem, it was THE problem. And that's assuming that they did it out of incompetence, rather than malevolence. I am not convinced that was the case.
He DID advance.
"Thirty Days" thru "Unimatrix Zero" - Ensign ○
"Unimatrix Zero" thru "Endgame" - LTJG ○●
"We'll Always Have Tom Paris" - Lieutenant ○○
Tom did. B'Elanna hasn't been seen. And no one else has a rank.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
That would have been all right, as long as he gave reason not to promote him beforehand. Because having him deteriorate from fine upstanding graduate to ne'er do well would have been CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT. Not all character changes have to be positive, the character just has to go somewhere.
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And in the real world, for many of us, if we stayed in exactly the same professional role for seven years, especially under extremely adverse circumstances, and our annual reviews were always, "You're great! But no promotion for you!" then I think consciously or unconsciously it would negatively impact our future performance.
Hell, I'm in a role at my job that I actively like...but after 1.5 years of it, it's still hard for me to imagine the idea of doing it for seven years with no appreciable changes. With any luck, according to my manager, I may be looking at a promotion to Team Lead later this year.
Employees deserve, if not need, something to aspire to.
Sure, but you're not trapped in your office in the middle of unknown, hostile territory. At least I hope not.
And good leaders understand that. They certainly don't respond when a quality employee expresses his concerns (after six years of soldiering on in silence) with accusations and derision, like Janeway did in "Nightingale".
That or we'd think our employer was gaslighting us.
The rationale "Voyager was in the middle of the DQ so no one could be promoted" would only work in a purely static environment, i.e. nobody died and nobody else was promoted. Voyager was not such an environment.
FTFY.
I don't see the relevance. Other people got promoted. Hell, Tom got demoted and promoted. Kim was absolutely right to wonder why there wasn't a little box on his chair.
And he had every right expressing his frustration that he was still an ensign after seven years. Janeway's response, which was to outright accuse him of "bucking for a promotion", and her derisive remarks when he said that if they were home, he would at least be a lieutenant... all I can say is that's not the warm and empathetic commander that Kate Mulgrew normally gives us.
But, even so, his duties are of a higher grade officer. He is not a substitutionary officer, he's acting as a department head. So, he's given all this responsibility with none of the recognition, and is kept at a lower rank for no good reason.
Well, it's the special future were people don't work towards money or fame or power, but to better themselves and the rest of humanity. So, seeking after promotion would obviously not be bettering yourself...I trust you see the difference.
You said you couldn't imagine staying at your job for seven years with no advancement. I humbly suggested that your analogy fails. It was just a wee bit of humor. Apologies.
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