My Disco Rewatch, and Where It Lost Me

[Cr0sis21]

So I recently rewatched Disco, mostly because my sister-in-law started watching it and my wife and I came along for the ride. In watching, I was reminded of what I loved about it, what drove me nuts, and why I stopped watching it altogether.
Season 1: Hell, I love this season. The story is great, it has dynamic twists and turns, and the main cast are dynamic and intriguing. Lorca became one of my favorite captains very quickly. I hated the pointless redesign of the Klingons, and I thought their ships were eyesores, but other than that I loved it.
Season 2: I loved parts of it, hated others. The use of Section 31 played like someone who'd been told about it, but never watched DS9. They forgot it was supposed to be a clandestine division of Starfleet Intelligence, not the whole thing, and they certainly weren't supposed to have their own cool ships and nifty badges. But, the performances were once again strong, the story intriguing (if a little convoluted) and it also launched the wonderful Strange New Worlds.
Season 3: Andromeda by way of Star Trek. It was...okay. For the first time, I found myself actually forgetting to watch it some weeks. I enjoyed Saru as captain, but I hated the way they made him look like a buffoon to pave the way for Burnham. Stamets had been one of my favorites, but I found his obsessive "adoption" of Gray and Tal to be creepy. When he started referring to them as his kids by season's end, it seemed to me more like someone being inappropriate than anything else. It might have helped if we knew, maybe, where Adira's parents were or even what happened to them, but they are never once even mentioned. And the resolution, with the dilithium being blown up because Su'kal was crying, was especially aggravating. I mean, the whole idea of the Burn was a bit silly, but that was a rancid cherry on top.
Season 4: And here is where they lost me. Another threat to the WHOLE GALAXY that only Discovery can solve. Remember when we chuckled about the Enterprise always being the only ship in range of Earth in the movies? This is that times 1,000. But really, what finally did me in was the Zora issue. We have Stamets positing the only rational reaction to Zora's emergence, only for him to get slapped down by, basically, everybody and told that if he doesn't get on board with Zora he's fired. Which is ridiculous. Never mind that Zora infiltrated the ship without permission. Never mind that Zora already put the WHOLE GALAXY at risk via impeding Starfleet's conflict with Control. Never mind that Zora is now putting MILLIONS MORE at risk because she doesn't want to allow Starfleet to take their ship to meet the 10-C. Never mind that, as Kovich pointed out to Burnham, Discovery is STARFLEET'S ship. No, let's just let the brand-new sentient AI have complete control over the ship with no real safeguards. And Stamets, you're a jerk for not trusting her.
Ugh.
Kirk would have talked Zora into killing herself. Picard would have tricked Zora onto a holodeck. Sisko would have isolated Zora in a dog house. Janeway would reset Zora like a faulty iPhone. But no, on Discovery, we just let the rogue AI have full control of the ship, and no one seems to mind.
And I couldn't watch after that. I was too angry. So I finished it with my sister-in-law, and it was...okay? I ignored the Zora thing as best I could, but overall the story dragged. It wasn't a BAD story, it just ran for about 4 episodes too long, at a minimum.
So for Season 5...it features Romulans, I hope? Or maybe that's just an instigating event. We will see. I'll watch it, but to quote one of my favorite Romulans, "My expectations are so low, you'd have to work very hard to disappoint me indeed."

 

[fireproof78]

"My expectations are so low, you'd have to work very hard to disappoint me indeed."

As I approach most shows.

 

[BillJ]

I don't hate the show, but have struggled with it and finally quit watching after "Unification III". I keep thinking about going back, but then things like watching paint dry seem more interesting.

 

[Quantum21]

So I recently rewatched Disco, mostly because my sister-in-law started watching it and my wife and I came along for the ride. In watching, I was reminded of what I loved about it, what drove me nuts, and why I stopped watching it altogether.
Season 1: Hell, I love this season. The story is great, it has dynamic twists and turns, and the main cast are dynamic and intriguing. Lorca became one of my favorite captains very quickly. I hated the pointless redesign of the Klingons, and I thought their ships were eyesores, but other than that I loved it.
Season 2: I loved parts of it, hated others. The use of Section 31 played like someone who'd been told about it, but never watched DS9. They forgot it was supposed to be a clandestine division of Starfleet Intelligence, not the whole thing, and they certainly weren't supposed to have their own cool ships and nifty badges. But, the performances were once again strong, the story intriguing (if a little convoluted) and it also launched the wonderful Strange New Worlds.
Season 3: Andromeda by way of Star Trek. It was...okay. For the first time, I found myself actually forgetting to watch it some weeks. I enjoyed Saru as captain, but I hated the way they made him look like a buffoon to pave the way for Burnham. Stamets had been one of my favorites, but I found his obsessive "adoption" of Gray and Tal to be creepy. When he started referring to them as his kids by season's end, it seemed to me more like someone being inappropriate than anything else. It might have helped if we knew, maybe, where Adira's parents were or even what happened to them, but they are never once even mentioned. And the resolution, with the dilithium being blown up because Su'kal was crying, was especially aggravating. I mean, the whole idea of the Burn was a bit silly, but that was a rancid cherry on top.
Season 4: And here is where they lost me. Another threat to the WHOLE GALAXY that only Discovery can solve. Remember when we chuckled about the Enterprise always being the only ship in range of Earth in the movies? This is that times 1,000. But really, what finally did me in was the Zora issue. We have Stamets positing the only rational reaction to Zora's emergence, only for him to get slapped down by, basically, everybody and told that if he doesn't get on board with Zora he's fired. Which is ridiculous. Never mind that Zora infiltrated the ship without permission. Never mind that Zora already put the WHOLE GALAXY at risk via impeding Starfleet's conflict with Control. Never mind that Zora is now putting MILLIONS MORE at risk because she doesn't want to allow Starfleet to take their ship to meet the 10-C. Never mind that, as Kovich pointed out to Burnham, Discovery is STARFLEET'S ship. No, let's just let the brand-new sentient AI have complete control over the ship with no real safeguards. And Stamets, you're a jerk for not trusting her.
Ugh.
Kirk would have talked Zora into killing herself. Picard would have tricked Zora onto a holodeck. Sisko would have isolated Zora in a dog house. Janeway would reset Zora like a faulty iPhone. But no, on Discovery, we just let the rogue AI have full control of the ship, and no one seems to mind.
And I couldn't watch after that. I was too angry. So I finished it with my sister-in-law, and it was...okay? I ignored the Zora thing as best I could, but overall the story dragged. It wasn't a BAD story, it just ran for about 4 episodes too long, at a minimum.
So for Season 5...it features Romulans, I hope? Or maybe that's just an instigating event. We will see. I'll watch it, but to quote one of my favorite Romulans, "My expectations are so low, you'd have to work very hard to disappoint me indeed."

You're reaction to season 4 is the exact wrongheadedness I see sometimes. So maybe I can clarify.

Zora for example is exactly the sort of thing that dates TOS and shows how far Star Trek has come on these issues.

While I agree there may be some problems with an uninvited layer of AI, assessing it and treating it properly as they did shows vast levels of superiority and maturity over Kirk AI kung fooey. There's no doubt this is the better way to go and they seem to have some mitigation for their concerns while still showing respect. Meanwhile they gain an able "crewman" with some helpful abilities.

Would you react this way with Data, a sentient AI? Don't answer that...

As for Discovery always being there, you're not wrong it's a show about Discovery. If they suddenly started showing the USS Sutherland's reaction to a crisis it wouldn't...be...Discovery. Seems logical right?

Add to this Discovery is still the only ship with a non-prototype Spore hub drive and you have your rationale for it being the Chosen One.

I also have issues with your characterization of season 3 but I might leave that for another time.

So go rewatch them. Change your attitude, chill.

 

[Quantum21]

I don't hate the show, but have struggled with it and finally quit watching after "Unification III". I keep thinking about going back, but then things like watching paint dry seem more interesting.

Ah good! So you won't be commenting about it again, right? I mean, hate watching is sort of sad.

 

[Cr0sis21]

You're reaction to season 4 is the exact wrongheadedness I see sometimes. So maybe I can clarify.

Zora for example is exactly the sort of thing that dates TOS and shows how far Star Trek has come on these issues.

While I agree there may be some problems with an uninvited layer of AI, assessing it and treating it properly as they did shows vast levels of superiority and maturity over Kirk AI kung fooey. There's no doubt this is the better way to go and they seem to have some mitigation for their concerns while still showing respect. Meanwhile they gain an able "crewman" with some helpful abilities.

They could have gained the able crewman without leaving it in the computer system. I've not seen any evidence of what benefits Discovery reaps from leaving Zora in their systems. You say there's no doubt this is the better way to go, but actually there is plenty of doubt. The whole episode was built around doubt. Just because the writing had the characters brush those concerns aside without actually addressing them doesn't mean there's no actual dissension to be had.

Would you react this way with Data, a sentient AI? Don't answer that...

I think Data is a perfect example of why Zora shouldn't stay in the computer. Look at what he was able to do in "Brothers". Look at what Lore was able to do in "Surrender" (Picard Season 3).

As for Discovery always being there, you're not wrong it's a show about Discovery. If they suddenly started showing the USS Sutherland's reaction to a crisis it wouldn't...be...Discovery. Seems logical right?

Add to this Discovery is still the only ship with a non-prototype Spore hub drive and you have your rationale for it being the Chosen One.

Yes, it's a show about Discovery, but one of the nice things about the other series was you got the sense that the rest of Starfleet could still function even without the Enterprise being right in the thick of things. DISCO has a two-fold problem where 1) Starfleet looks mostly incompetent without the magical spore drive MacGuffin, and 2) DIscovery's crew isn't in the middle of things because they're the best, but because they are the ones with the Magical Spore Drive.

So go rewatch them. Change your attitude, chill.

Why should I change my attitude? Clearly there are lots of people, like you, who think everything DISCO does is fantastic. That's fine. I saw similar posts on TrekBBS when ENT was first airing ("Alien Space Nazis? A++++!"). Personal taste is personal taste. I feel like DISCO started to nosedive as soon as Michelle Paradise took over, but I will still watch the final season because I like a lot of the characters and want to see how it ends.

 

[Quantum21]

They could have gained the able crewman without leaving it in the computer system. I've not seen any evidence of what benefits Discovery reaps from leaving Zora in their systems. You say there's no doubt this is the better way to go, but actually there is plenty of doubt. The whole episode was built around doubt. Just because the writing had the characters brush those concerns aside without actually addressing them doesn't mean there's no actual dissension to be had.





I think Data is a perfect example of why Zora shouldn't stay in the computer. Look at what he was able to do in "Brothers". Look at what Lore was able to do in "Surrender" (Picard Season 3).



Yes, it's a show about Discovery, but one of the nice things about the other series was you got the sense that the rest of Starfleet could still function even without the Enterprise being right in the thick of things. DISCO has a two-fold problem where 1) Starfleet looks mostly incompetent without the magical spore drive MacGuffin, and 2) DIscovery's crew isn't in the middle of things because they're the best, but because they are the ones with the Magical Spore Drive.



Why should I change my attitude? Clearly there are lots of people, like you, who think everything DISCO does is fantastic. That's fine. I saw similar posts on TrekBBS when ENT was first airing ("Alien Space Nazis? A++++!"). Personal taste is personal taste. I feel like DISCO started to nosedive as soon as Michelle Paradise took over, but I will still watch the final season because I like a lot of the characters and want to see how it ends.

People go crazy, people have destroyed ships, gone rogue. Are we banning all crewman, whole species? Do we ban women because a female officer may have done something wrong? A male? Andorian? It's a slippery slope.

This is just severely limited thinking and doesn't take into account some very real issues we'll all be dealing with in the next few decades.

Bah, there are so many different star drives in scifi, this one is no more magical than any other superluminal shenanigans in any other show, not much of an argument there...

We're to assume this crew was picked for this experimental and classified ship with cutting edge tech because they were skilled and the best of the bunch. Burnham is obviously on Kirk's level. Clearly they can back up their missions with competency.

I'm not suggesting you change your opinion, that's your own. The attitude you can change is by looking deeper and considering more. Open your mind a little.

 

[Cr0sis21]

People go crazy, people have destroyed ships, gone rogue. Are we banning all crewman? Do we ban a women because a female officer may have done something wrong? An male? Andorian? Slippery slope.

This is just severely limited thinking and doesn't take into account dome very real issues we'll all be dealing with in the next few decades.

It's not limited thinking. It's logical. You act as if I'm saying Zora is representative of all AI. And she's not. Zora is representative of Zora.
And as such, Zora (alone) is an uninvited invader to the computer system. Zora (on her own) has repeatedly either withheld information or not followed orders. Zora (and only Zora) has demonstrated an inability to adequately handle emotional situations.

You're creating a straw horse to refute legitimate arguments, in an attempt to make me seem overly prejudiced. It's like asking if I still beat my wife.

There are people who despise what Janeway did to Tuvix, and I think that's similar to what's going on here. However, while the writing in Tuvix did a good job of adequately portraying both sides, Disco stumbled. My biggest problem with it is that, character-wise, it seems jarringly wrong. Stamets should not have capitulated so easily. Kovich is portrayed as far too pragmatic to embrace such an emotionally shaky solution. And the "solution" isn't really one at all, because whether Zora is a member of Starfleet or not doesn't inherently solve the problem of an emotional AI having control over all ship's functions, even though everyone acts like it does.
In Tuvix, I felt like everyone acted in character. In "But To Connect" they had to bend certain characterizations to convince the audience of the result the writer's wanted. Consider: The Doctor was NOT convinced by Janeway in the end. She just went ahead without him. Contrast that with the normally acerbic Stamets being convinced by, basically, Zora promising not to do anything like that again. It's not a believable character trait.
I'd have felt more comfortable with it if they'd had a way, for instance, to actually lock Zora out of essential ship functions. But that's now how the writers did it, and it is maddening.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Season 1: Hell, I love this season. The story is great, it has dynamic twists and turns, and the main cast are dynamic and intriguing. Lorca became one of my favorite captains very quickly. I hated the pointless redesign of the Klingons, and I thought their ships were eyesores, but other than that I loved it.

If there is a strength to S1, its that its dynamic.

Season 2: I loved parts of it, hated others. The use of Section 31 played like someone who'd been told about it, but never watched DS9. They forgot it was supposed to be a clandestine division of Starfleet Intelligence, not the whole thing, and they certainly weren't supposed to have their own cool ships and nifty badges.

They should not be in the open. But there is a whole century between ENT and DIS that could have led to it being a prominent organization.

Season 3: Andromeda by way of Star Trek. It was...okay. For the first time, I found myself actually forgetting to watch it some weeks. I enjoyed Saru as captain, but I hated the way they made him look like a buffoon to pave the way for Burnham. Stamets had been one of my favorites, but I found his obsessive "adoption" of Gray and Tal to be creepy. When he started referring to them as his kids by season's end, it seemed to me more like someone being inappropriate than anything else. It might have helped if we knew, maybe, where Adira's parents were or even what happened to them, but they are never once even mentioned. And the resolution, with the dilithium being blown up because Su'kal was crying, was especially aggravating. I mean, the whole idea of the Burn was a bit silly, but that was a rancid cherry on top.

Saru promoting Tilly to be first officer was ridiculous.

Stamets was just trying to belong in the new century the habits. He wanted to be adopted by Adira and Gray just as much as he wanted to adopt them.

The reasoning behind the Burn is a drag. But, I do understand that idea behind it is related to extreme grief.

Season 4: And here is where they lost me. Another threat to the WHOLE GALAXY that only Discovery can solve. Remember when we chuckled about the Enterprise always being the only ship in range of Earth in the movies? This is that times 1,000.

The one thing that make it different from past shows, is that it makes sense that the USS Discovery is relied on, as their spore drive allows them to address the crisis quickly. Which needed to be done in that particular circumstance.

e have Stamets positing the only rational reaction to Zora's emergence, only for him to get slapped down by, basically, everybody and told that if he doesn't get on board with Zora he's fired. Which is ridiculous.

This works as allegory for a current day issue. But that crosses into TNZ territory and I won’t bother.

Never mind that Zora infiltrated the ship without permission. Never mind that Zora already put the WHOLE GALAXY at risk via impeding Starfleet's conflict with Control. Never mind that Zora is now putting MILLIONS MORE at risk because she doesn't want to allow Starfleet to take their ship to meet the 10-C. Never mind that, as Kovich pointed out to Burnham, Discovery is STARFLEET'S ship. No, let's just let the brand-new sentient AI have complete control over the ship with no real safeguards. And Stamets, you're a jerk for not trusting her.

Ugh.

Kirk would have talked Zora into killing herself. Picard would have tricked Zora onto a holodeck. Sisko would have isolated Zora in a dog house. Janeway would reset Zora like a faulty iPhone. But no, on Discovery, we just let the rogue AI have full control of the ship, and no one seems to mind.

Maybe they are just doing what Archer would do?

 

[Lord Garth]

My rankings of DSC and PIC seasons up to this point are:

S-Tier: PIC Season 3, PIC Season 1
A-Tier: DSC Season 1, DSC Season 4
B-Tier: DSC Season 2, DSC Season 3
C-Tier: PIC Season 2

(Before anyone asks: I'm not including SNW until I've watched every episode, and at least twice.)

DSC S1 showed all the potential Discovery had and it was completely untamed and unfiltered.

DSC S2 had to paper over cracks since showrunners changed. It's also the "fork in the road" season, where it could lead into DSC's future setting, SNW, or S31.

DSC S3 had to do too much in too little time and there were two things I didn't agree with: Tilly being promoted to First Officer and the cause of The Burn.

DSC S4 showed Discovery at its best (thus far) as a series that's fully grown into itself. DSC S4 also had going for it that it was the most Roddenberrian season not just of New Trek, but the most Roddenberrian season of Star Trek since TNG Season 2.

 

[Cr0sis21]

They should not be in the open. But there is a whole century between ENT and DIS that could have led to it being a prominent organization.

I'm sure it can be explained. And really, I already did in my head. But my consternation comes from the fact that it demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of what S31 was supposed to be and instead turns it into the anti-Trek organization detractors always said it was.

Stamets was just trying to belong in the new century the habits. He wanted to be adopted by Adira and Gray just as much as he wanted to adopt them.

You've already put more thought into it than I think the writers did. As its portrayed on screen, it feels more like the writers just wanted to mash all the LGBT people into one family group

This works as allegory for a current day issue. But that crosses into TNZ territory and I won’t bother.

And that's part of the problem. They're more concerned with the allegory than the story.
Which also undercuts what the point is with Disco's spore drive being so important. If it's that vital, it makes the choices regarding Zora in that episode even more imbecilic, as it places Zora's feelings over, literally, the lives of billions of people.[

 

[fireproof78]

I'm sure it can be explained. And really, I already did in my head. But my consternation comes from the fact that it demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of what S31 was supposed to be and instead turns it into the anti-Trek organization detractors always said it was.

Of course it can be explained. They tried to match threat with equal presence of their threatening posture, and it didn't work.

I don't understand how it is a misunderstanding of Section 31's purpose.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Of course it can be explained. They tried to match threat with equal presence of their threatening posture, and it didn't work.

I don't understand how it is a misunderstanding of Section 31's purpose.

I should have been more clear: I meant its purpose as DS9 did it. I actually talked a bit about it with Ira Behr on the Star Trek cruise, and he freaking hated the way Disco did S31 because it was always supposed to be this seedy underside of Starfleet that was a relic of older times abs needed to be expunged.
By making it such a blatantly open part of the Fleet, Disco was essentially saying that all of Starfleet spruced of the concept of S31, which was NOT what was originally intended.

 

[fireproof78]

I should have been more clear: I meant its purpose as DS9 did it. I actually talked a bit about it with Ira Behr on the Star Trek cruise, and he freaking hated the way Disco did S31 because it was always supposed to be this seedy underside of Starfleet that was a relic of older times abs needed to be expunged.
By making it such a blatantly open part of the Fleet, Disco was essentially saying that all of Starfleet spruced of the concept of S31, which was NOT what was originally intended.

Ok, that's fair, but it's also 100 years before. There are plenty of organizations in history that existed previously that no longer do because they don't reflect societal values moving forward. So, I don't see the issue.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Ok, that's fair, but it's also 100 years before. There are plenty of organizations in history that existed previously that no longer do because they don't reflect societal values moving forward. So, I don't see the issue.

Like I said, it can be explained. I'm just asked because in every other iteration, including Enterprise and Into Darkness, it's the same clandestine organization, but here, for a brief period, it's out in the open.
It creates something that needs to be solved, when it wasn't even necessary. You could still pull the S31 card without making it so out in the open.

 

[fireproof78]

Like I said, it can be explained. I'm just asked because in every other iteration, including Enterprise and Into Darkness, it's the same clandestine organization, but here, for a brief period, it's out in the open.
It creates something that needs to be solved, when it wasn't even necessary. You could still pull the S31 card without making it so out in the open.

Sure, you could. You could also not use them at all and lean on the bad admiral trope.

What I think this does is create a sense of history. That they tried something, got bitten for it, and readjusted their tactics. That's really interesting to me.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Sure, you could. You could also not use them at all and lean on the bad admiral trope.

What I think this does is create a sense of history. That they tried something, got bitten for it, and readjusted their tactics. That's really interesting to me.

That's how I look at a well. It wound be nice if we got an acknowledgement of it on screen, but...I won't hold my breath.

Also, my head canon as that a lot of bad admirals were doing Section 31 crap (Like in Insurrection).

 

[fireproof78]

That's how I look at a well. It wound be nice if we got an acknowledgement of it on screen, but...I won't hold my breath.

I don't see why this is necessary though. Supposedly, though I won't hold my breath either, Star Trek appeals to an audience that is able to make logical inferences, and work within the work as presented. I don't understand the need to codify everything. It's like expecting TOS to say "Well, we were under the UESPA but then the Federation adjusted their organization and now we are under Federation Starfleet." It's an odd detail to include for not a lot of change.

Mileage may vary, and probably does.

Also, my head canon as that a lot of bad admirals were doing Section 31 crap (Like in Insurrection).

Which immediately implies a further reach that implied by DS9.

 

[Cr0sis21]

Which immediately implies a further reach that implied by DS9.

I guess that's where the interpretation comes in. I see something like "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", and I think "Yeah, stuff like that probably happened on a more frequent basis than we realize."
And I thought back to, for instance, "The Pegasus", and "Insurrection", and I thought "Yep, that makes sense based on what they showed us."
What didn't make sense to me was a Section 31 starbase with equipment explicitly banned by the Federation, flying around in ships with cloaking devices, etc, etc. BUT, yes, I can account for that in my head. Which is how I'm still able to enjoy Disco season 2.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess that's where the interpretation comes in. I see something like "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges", and I think "Yeah, stuff like that probably happened on a more frequent basis than we realize."
And I thought back to, for instance, "The Pegasus", and "Insurrection", and I thought "Yep, that makes sense based on what they showed us."
What didn't make sense to me was a Section 31 starbase with equipment explicitly banned by the Federation, flying around in ships with cloaking devices, etc, etc. BUT, yes, I can account for that in my head. Which is how I'm still able to enjoy Disco season 2.

Oh, I agree that it happens on a more frequent basis, especially in the TNG era. What fascinates me is how there is this weird tension of S31 is both everywhere, yet can't be out in the open. When cloaking devices would clearly serve their purposes in the name of security. And there's a novel were the espionage mission of Kirk and Spock to get a cloaking device is an S31 operation. But, they can't have ships or bases?