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It would have been better if they had ended TNG with it.
- Picard stays behind on Baku to make sure no one else tries to pull the same stuff the Badmiral did. And do some mambo in the process.
- Riker and Troi get married. Riker takes over the Enterprise E. Data is his new Number One.
- Geordi keeps his eyes. But Worf doesn't get any more pimples. You can decide for yourself what happens with Beverly's boobs.
- And Movie 10 "movies" on to the DS9 cast, who badly needed an update.
With Deep Space Nine's ending, I always think about "the day after" the events in the fire caves, and how everyone would react and whether anyone would know what happened?
Unless the Prophets relayed a message through the Orbs, or they were made aware of everything by Sisko (through Kassidy), all everyone would know is that both the Kai and the Emissary disappeared after entering those caves with a strange dude that was the Kai's lover. Like do people know that Winn had basically betrayed everything and everyone? Do they know she was in league with Gul Dukat and the Pah Wraiths?
I would think that information alone would be a HUGE shock to Bajoran society. Basically, the Bajoran Pope is revealed to be a devil worshipper. People wouldn't stop believing in the Prophets, since their Emissary just saved everyone and every thing. But I have to believe there would be people who might stop believing in the religious system that was set up around the Prophets (e.g., think of how some Catholics reassessed their support for the Catholic Church after the priest sex scandals), and since Bajor's religious system seems to be intertwined with government in Bajoran society that could have big repercussions for changes going forward.
We see Sisko tell Kassidy that he's ascended to the Celestial Temple/Wormhole. And we know the Bajorans (and the Sisko family) believe he will return some day. But he doesn't relay all of the details.
When Behr got the DS9 writers back together to map out a hypothetical "season 8" for the What We Left Behind documentary, Bajor is still not in the Federation more than two decades later and that's a huge part of the story. Basically, bad things start happening to certain people who know too much (i.e., Goodbye, Nog). And eventually it all leads to a conspiracy by Section 31 to kill the Prophets with the idea that by eliminating Bajor's "gods" and the protection of the Prophets, the Bajorans would run to the Federation for help and finally join.
The big twist reveal would be that Dr. Julian Bashir is now the head of Section 31 and behind the entire thing.
I've read interviews where Behr has defended the idea of Bajor remaining independent as being indicative of Sisko's conversion from being a Starfleet officer who shunned his religious position to ultimately being a true believer who accepts his role and purpose. Sisko comes to Bajor with the mission of bringing Bajor into the Federation, but in the end the Bajorans bring him to their side. Sisko realizes his true mission is to be the Emissary for Bajor and that purpose supersedes the Federation. The scenes where Sisko explains to Ross that "home" is no longer Earth, but Bajor to him, hint at this.
But surely marrying for reasons other than love is less logical than marrying for love, so in that case Vulcans should marry exclusively for love regardless of social or familial obligations...
That's an absolutely ridiculous definition of 'one person changing society'. Without Zek, Ishka could accomplish absolutely nothing. And even with him, they still needed Quark and Rom and Sluggo man and all the other people he convinced and all the people who became members of the new Ferengi legislature, etc, etc.
One person convinces another, convinces another, etc, etc. That's how social change works.
Actually, it really wasn't, because of the sheer magnitude of obstacles in the way. Here are three, in ascending order of severity.
3. Out of 400 major businessmen on Ferenginar, one was willing to listen to the notion that females should have equal rights. That's 0.25% vs. 99.75%. The problem that 399 out of 400 of the most influential people in society still wanted Brunt in the office is never addressed.
One highly influential one who would pull others over to their side. And the problem that there are others still trying to stand in the way doesn't need to be addressed because most of this takes place off-screen, behind the scenes over the course of years of the show. Obviously there were other obstacles. Somebody (maybe Ishka and Zek, maybe someone else - no one ever says) figured out how to get past them.
2. Among the ultimate consequences of females wearing clothes was that they would seek jobs. Just how, exactly, is a society going to double its job pool overnight?
Also, you literally already said exactly where those jobs are going to come from:
females wearing clothes means tens (maybe hundreds) of billions of articles of clothing being needed. Females being educated means the schools will pull in double the tuition. Females leaving the house means vehicle sales.
That is among many other things women will also buy, obviously. That's lots of new work that needs to be done. And this is all using Star Trek level technology which will also move much faster than what we could do today.
1. The big one is that there must have been a massive and deep rooted prejudice against women in Ferengi society. Otherwise, some other businessman would have done what Zek was trying to do long before. In addition to the uneducated and eminently exploitable workers, females wearing clothes means tens (maybe hundreds) of billions of articles of clothing being needed. Females being educated means the schools will pull in double the tuition. Females leaving the house means vehicle sales. Yet somehow, Ishka made that prejudice completely irrelevant.
That's not something the show ever says. Ishka's movement succeeded in changing Ferengi politics and laws. Nothing says they've permanently overcome sexism and chauvinism in all corners of Ferengi society.
And again, Ferengi are historically very blinded by their tradition and by their deep veneration of the Grand Nagus as the 'greatest businessman alive' who everyone who wants to be successful should emulate. So no, it's not at all inevitable that some other businessman would've tried all of this before as long as tradition and the Grand Nagus were very firmly set against it. Especially since the Nagus can and would confiscate all of their property and businesses for ignoring the law.
That being said, I understand that it was inevitable that women's rights were going to come to Ferenginar. And, it was NOT impossible to do just that and have it make sense. They just needed to have an existing, burgeoning women's rights movement in place. It really would have just required a few extra lines by Brunt, when he was trying to get Quark to ruin the Ishka/Zek romance. He mentions that Ferengi society is at a tipping point, and millions of females worldwide are already clamoring for a more equal society. If Ishka retains Zek's ear, she becomes the straw that breaks the camel's back. Revolution, yes, but set up by generations of evolution.
Just because you assume there was no evolution prior to this doesn't make it true. The show doesn't have to name drop some feminist revolutionary movement for audiences to draw the obvious conclusion that this whole thing clearly didn't start (and succeed) just because one single person wasn't happy with her lot in life. Ishka has clearly had these issues her entire life and obviously isn't shy of showing it and yet she never wound up a pariah (or worse). She also isn't the only Ferengi woman we've seen who is clearly not happy with the way things are. And Rom isn't the only Ferengi man we've seen who's clearly unhappy with the way things are, either. There was very clearly already a foundation available to build on, regardless of whether the people who made up that foundation actually previously dared to make big public protests or not.
Assuming that they didn't exist is exactly as illogical as assuming that the bigots instantly disappeared or were converted after the law changed.
Unless the Prophets relayed a message through the Orbs, or they were made aware of everything by Sisko (through Kassidy), all everyone would know is that both the Kai and the Emissary disappeared after entering those caves with a strange dude that was the Kai's lover. Like do people know that Winn had basically betrayed everything and everyone? Do they know she was in league with Gul Dukat and the Pah Wraiths?
That's an absolutely ridiculous definition of 'one person changing society'. Without Zek, Ishka could accomplish absolutely nothing. And even with him, they still needed Quark and Rom and Sluggo man and all the other people he convinced and all the people who became members of the new Ferengi legislature, etc, etc.
One person convinces another, convinces another, etc, etc. That's how social change works.
That's the "forest fires start from one spark" analogy. However, that only happens when conditions are right (i.e. an extremely dry forest). When the forest is saturated by rainfall, the spark fizzles out.
Again, there was no sign given that Ferengi society was at a tipping point.
One highly influential one who would pull others over to their side. And the problem that there are others still trying to stand in the way doesn't need to be addressed because most of this takes place off-screen, behind the scenes over the course of years of the show.
Actually, it's about a year and change between "Profit and Lace" and "The Dogs of War". And at that point, things have transformed even further: taxation, welfare, etc. So yes, we're talking overnight transformation.
That's not something the show ever says. Ishka's movement succeeded in changing Ferengi politics and laws. Nothing says they've permanently overcome sexism and chauvinism in all corners of Ferengi society.
The women's suffrage movement began in the aftermath of abolition. That means it took women in our society 54 years just to gain the right to vote. The forces you speak of take enormous amounts of time and the effort of thousands to overcome.
There was very clearly already a foundation available to build on, regardless of whether the people who made up that foundation actually previously dared to make big public protests or not.
Clearly, there were a lot more bigots than feminists. And while numbers alone do not win a battle, they certainly do help.
The only sign we got aside from Ishka was one Ferengi female who made herself a set of fake lobes. And she said to Dax that she would probably never see a female Ferengi again, so she was not aware of any rising tide of discontent, hidden or no.
Also, if there were more women who wanted things to change, why hadn't Zek and Ishka scooped them up? Their case would have been infinitely stronger if they could have produced multiple business-savvy women instead of one.
I think one of the issues with "PROFIT AND LACE" is the fact that with Ishka, you basically had females getting equal rights by sleeping with the top man in charge. It kind of flies in the face of equal rights movements of the past... the concerted efforts of many, many people to get laws and minds changed. Ishka paints a bad picture with this.
Speaking of Ishka, I'm going to say something that might be unpopular... she wasn't a good mom to Quark. Namely, her attitude in "FERENGI LOVE SONGS".
During their dinner, Quark was trying to convince Zek to get his business license reinstated. When he turns to Ishka for support, she just says, "He's got a point, you did break the law." Ishka... pot, kettle, black. And what exactly did you do only a year and a half prior to this, Ishka? That's right, break every Ferengi law by earning profit. And Quark only broke that contract because of Brunt's trickery into getting a doctor to say he's dying, so it was a forced situation between contract breaking or getting killed. But you couldn't muster a little support for Quark at this moment?
(I'll agree that Quark was being a dick to his mom in "FAMILY BUSINESS", but considering how he was going to be completely ruined and never be able to pay the profits back, I think he simply let his anger take control.)
I think one of the issues with "PROFIT AND LACE" is the fact that with Ishka, you basically had females getting equal rights by sleeping with the top man in charge.
True. It's like saying that Susan B. Anthony could have gotten women the vote way back in 1866, just by toodling off to Washington and doing the horizontal mambo with President Johnson. It would not have been that simple.
True. It's like saying that Susan B. Anthony could have gotten women the vote way back in 1866, just by toodling off to Washington and doing the horizontal mambo with President Johnson. It would not have been that simple.
That's not really that unbelievable, since Dukat was already in charge of the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. He began the series as a quite famous/infamous person.
Damar rising from "guy standing behind Dukat" to leading Cardassia, and then briefly the head of the resistance though, that was strange. Along with the implication that Garak ended up leading Cardassia after the war.
I'm a little amazed at just how controversial my "more than one Dr. M'Benga" hypothesis is.
Think about it: there seem to be several people who insist that SNW Uhura can't possibly be TOS Uhura, that the enthusiastic workaholic ensign couldn't possibly be the same person who (in "The Man Trap") declared that if she heard "frequency again, she'd cry," or who botched a Klingon translation in The Undiscovered Country. For pity's sake, in SNW, she starts out as a cadet, and then a green ensign. Not entirely thrilled with her backstory of being orphaned, even if the backstory in the prologue of Star Trek Log Ten was unwittingly and unintentionally racist (ADF was much younger, and far less well-traveled back then).
Likewise, there are those who insist that SNW Pike can't be the same person we met in "The Cage." Again, that's a bunch of bubkes: other than being a few years older, and knowing he's a doomed man (either of which can change a person), he's believably the same character.
And Chapel doesn't seem the least bit inconsistent, to me at least. The biggest inconsistency is the hairstyle, and people change that all the time.
Kyle, the cheerful Brit, being reimagined as an Asian who evidently terrifies the lower-deckers is quite a bit more problematic: why not just make him Pitcairn's assistant (non-canonically dubbed "Sam Yamata") from "The Cage"?
And the Aprils being Black, after already being established as white in "The Counter-Clock Incident," and as being British in Diane Carey's "Geordie Kirk" novels, is a bit odd.
But none of that comes close to the inconsistencies from assuming that SNW M'Benga and TOS M'Benga are the same person: that a CMO who looks to be in his forties would look, some eight-to-ten years later, like a young, fresh-out-of-residency, twenty-something staff doctor. Or that he and Chapel, after serving together under Pike
briefly serving together in a MASH unit during the Klingon War
, would then, less than a decade later, interact as if they barely knew each other in "A Private Little War."
his actions at the end of "Under the Cloak of War" would have gotten him demoted; if they'd actually come to light, they wouldn't have merely gotten him demoted; they'd have gotten him (and probably also Chapel, for covering for him) court-martialed, convicted, drummed out of Starfleet with prejudice, and probably sent to a penal colony.
Having an elder M'Benga and a younger M'Benga (who would likely still be in medical school during the events of SNW) would be the simplest way to clear up all those inconsistencies. Why are so many people -- including, I'd wager, people who have problems with Uhura, Pike, and Chapel, the three characters who are the most consistent between SNW and TOS -- so utterly closed to that possibility?
It doesn't matter if the writer's guide, the series format, or even "word of God" says they're the same person; they're no more canonical than tie-in novels are. Remember, Data was supposed to have been created by unknown aliens who had accidentally wiped out the colony where he was found, until Lewin and Hurley came up with a more interesting backstory. TNG was originally intended to run for decades, with Riker eventually succeeding Picard as Captain. DS9 was originally intended to be a "crossroads in space," where the "new life and new civilizations" come to us, and Odo's people were supposed to be benevolent . . . until they emerged as the tyrannical leaders of The Dominion (and the producers, in a vain attempt to differentiate DS9 from B5, unwittingly made DS9 more like B5). ENT was never intended to involve a season-long war arc with a previously unheard-of enemy.
Was there that implication? There was a lot going on, but I don't remember that. I remember he and Julian talking and Garak lamenting Cardasia that was. But Memory Alpha ALSO suggests that he would lead Cardasia, endorsed by the Federation and the Romulans. I don't find that anywhere in the transcript.
Exactly. There was so little of M'Benga seen and heard in TOS that he is mostly a blank slate. Even his physical appearance... looking 'younger' in TOS than in SNW... is not really an issue. Casting choice aside, there can be many in-universe reasons for this 'older' look in SNW: his later residency on Vulcan may have been better for him than we think, he could have been hit with some anomaly that made him appear younger (I hate to use this episode as an example, but TNG's "Rascals"), a horrible accident that altered his face and was given reconstructive surgery to mostly fix it but the byproduct is he appears a bit younger, or any number of other things.
In short, there's nothing that truly contradicts TOS and SNW M'Benga.
(And before anyone trots out the lack of appearance of familiarity between M'Benga and Chapel in "A PRIVATE LITTLE WAR", there can be a lot of reasons why they are just professional there. Besides the obvious 'just be professional' in the sickbay because they are professionals, there could have been a sort of falling out between them. Or Chapel, over time, just didn't like what she did at the end of "Under the Cloak of War". We're talking years between those two series... a lot can happen with and between two people in that time.)
Exactly. There was so little of M'Benga seen and heard in TOS that he is mostly a blank slate. Even his physical appearance... looking 'younger' in TOS than in SNW... is not really an issue. Casting choice aside, there can be many in-universe reasons for this 'older' look in SNW: his later residency on Vulcan may have been better for him than we think, he could have been hit with some anomaly that made him appear younger (I hate to use this episode as an example, but TNG's "Rascals"), a horrible accident that altered his face and was given reconstructive surgery to mostly fix it but the byproduct is he appears a bit younger, or any number of other things.
In short, there's nothing that truly contradicts TOS and SNW M'Benga.
(And before anyone trots out the lack of appearance of familiarity between M'Benga and Chapel in "A PRIVATE LITTLE WAR", there can be a lot of reasons why they are just professional there. Besides the obvious 'just be professional' in the sickbay because they are professionals, there could have been a sort of falling out between them. Or Chapel, over time, just didn't like what she did at the end of "Under the Cloak of War". We're talking years between those two series... a lot can happen with and between two people in that time.)
Indeed, there is room, on either side, to allow the interpretation. In my opinion, the efforts to separate the characters SNW vs. TOS is just an effort to insist that people must remain the same, and since they didn't act identically over the span of years that seems to be evidence of...well, I don't know what. The idea that relationships are static, people don't move or change, is one of my biggest frustrations with expectations around art in general, Trek in particular. Now, I get that familiarity is a nice thing, but it doesn't add information, and instead repeats familiar themes or keep characters exactly the same.
Despite my personal limited enjoyment of TMP, it at least acknowledges that these characters changed from TOS, and that not always for the better. That these people have a different relationship with each other after a mere 18 months (roughly) since TOS. So, if we take that as an example, one would think we should treat Spock and McCoy as wholly different since they are not acting familiar necessarily with each other.
"But, fireproof! There's context!" Yes, there is. In my opinion, that's what makes SNW so strong. The context, as presented since Discovery, is that this is Pike, Spock, Number One, and the rest from the Cage. There is no reason to dismiss it out of hand that Uhura and M'Benga are somehow relatives and not these people. Recasting alone is not sufficient for me, since we have Saavik played by two different people and treated no differently, as well as Nimoy Spock acting like and recognizing both Kirk, as a younger version of Prime Kirk, and Scott as a younger version of Prime Scotty. If that is enough to create different people then, well, we disconnect a lot of works.
I don't think people should remain the same, but Chapel becomes neutered going from SNW to TOS. That's not a good look, no matter how you try to twist it.
As far as Pike, I can't picture Anson Mount acting like Pike from "The Cage". Mount's Pike has no rage. He has no weariness from what I've seen. He doesn't have the sternness. "People change!" Yeah, they do, but no one changes that completely in a few years. No one. If Pike displayed any of that in SNW, it must've happened in one of the episodes I haven't seen.
The differences aren't conscious, they're there because of a different creative team, different actors, and due to being made in different times.
Pike definitely has the weariness though I agree not the rage.
I do hold to the idea that Pike has changed because of knowing his fate. The man who mourns when seven are lost suddenly feels the ticking clock of the end of his life, as he knows.
