What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Shawnster]

CJ Cherryh's Foreigner series has the Atevi, a species that are similar to dogs or other pack animals that instinctively follow the pack leader. Any deviation of that social norm results in anarchy and civil war.

Biology. Perhaps an insectoid species is hard wired to follow their queen. Democracy is simply not possible with such a species.

Likewise, a insect species might biologically need a caste system. The queen, sterile female workers, male drones.

Should a species be prohibited Federation membership if they are biologically incapable of forming a democracy?

 

[BillJ]

Biology. Perhaps an insectoid species is hard wired to follow their queen. Democracy is simply not possible with such a species.

CJ Cherryh's Foreigner series has the Atevi, a species that are similar to dogs or other pack animals that instinctively follow the pack leader. Any deviation of that social norm results in anarchy and civil war.

Star Trek would never give us anything that interesting.

 

[Sci]

I ask as, as long as those planets adhere to certain Federation standards such as no caste system and no slavery, nothing really stops those planets from being extremely strict societies that outlaw as much as possible. And the Federation would then be okay with these conservative democracies, moralistic democracies, or even authoritarian democracies so as long as they have elections every half decade.

I have a hard time imagining the Federation allowing such regimes into the club.

 

[BillJ]

I have a hard time imagining the Federation allowing such regimes into the club.

I think it just depends on what mood the Federation is in.

 

[Citiprime]

I have a hard time imagining the Federation allowing such regimes into the club.

I think Vulcan society is in some ways VERY problematic, since even if they are a democracy they seem to enforce a level of conformity that shuns and stigmatizes anyone that doesn’t fit their mold of dispassionate logic.

Especially, given that we know how Sarek “felt” about things in his life from Picard’s mind meld, what is the difference between Vulcan suppression of their feelings, with what seems to be a society wide enforcement of that standard, and a societal order that teaches people to suppress their sexual orientation? They enforce moralism about emotion in the same way a church preaches against sin.

Sarek loved Amanda. Sarek loved Spock. But he could never express it because “it’s not the Vulcan way.”

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[BillJ]

I think Vulcan society is in some ways VERY problematic, since even if they are a democracy they seem to enforce a level of conformity that shuns and stigmatizes anyone that doesn’t fit their mold of dispassionate logic.

That and bonding a child to marriage and fights to the death over mates. I agree, Vulcan, even on its best day, is very problematic.

The problem is defined by how you see the Federation.

 

[Tallguy]

Sarek loved Amanda. Sarek loved Spock. But he could never express it because “it’s not the Vulcan way.”

But "(i)t's a better way than ours."

 

[Orphalesion]

That’s on the fans that disliked S1.

Don't put that on me (I know you don't mean me personally, but I'm still a fan who disliked S1)
I never said they had to turn the show into some ridiculous Nostalgia fest for me to like it (didn't work anyway).
I just didn't like Season 1 (or 2 or 3) And if it had been the same show but with the Trek references removed I still wouldn't have liked it.
It was like they took a lot of things I don't like in any kind of fiction (plus a few things that were okay or good to give credits where credit is due) and made a show out of it. But I was content to mostly just ignore PIC and concentrate on LD and,eventually, SNW. I never expected them to "fix" PIC for me. Yes, I was always voicing my opinion on it, but that's something different from expecting them to change it to fit my sensibilities or taste.
I'm not required to like everything, just like not everything has to be designed according to my taste.

What if they are allowed to vote as to whether various legislation should be made law, and rather frequently, such as on a weekly schedule. Or for other positions to be filled except the monarchy every few years. Then what? Is it still anti-democratic?

Well, that is the crux. How powerful is that monarch they are electing for life? If their power is limited (maybe even mostly representative) and the population is able to make their voice heard and decide about their lives in other, perhaps more direct ways then it is a much more democratic form of government. For example something like a constitutional monarchy where the sovereign is largely symbolic and representative would still be democratic, a system where the life-long elected person is as powerful as, say, the US president less so.

 

[Sci]

I think Vulcan society is in some ways VERY problematic, since even if they are a democracy they seem to enforce a level of conformity that shuns and stigmatizes anyone that doesn’t fit their mold of dispassionate logic.

I mean, yes and no? I think it's clear that there's a diversity of traditions within Vulcan society over how to interpret Surak's teachings and how to implement them.

Especially, given that we know how Sarek “felt” about things in his life from Picard’s mind meld, what is the difference between Vulcan suppression of their feelings, with what seems to be a society wide enforcement of that standard, and a societal order that teaches people to suppress their sexual orientation?

I think the difference is that one is suppressing a naturally-occurring minority group and the other is not.

I would interpret the Vulcans as not caring about sexual orientation per se. If you were born LGBT, I doubt they care. If you enter pon farr and you have an irresistible need to mate with someone of your own gender, I imagine the Vulcans treat it the same way they treat a heterosexual in the same situation: lots of shame around the fact that it's uncontrolled emotion, not shame over who the emotion is directed at. What scandalizes them is not the homo- part of "homosexuality," it's the -sexuality part.

From a Federation POV, I imagine their general attitude is, "As long as you don't violate the fundamental constitutional rights of your minority groups, we can accept that your species may require a level of conformity for its survival that we otherwise might not tolerate."

Given that there are v'tosh ka'tur, and given that later on we know the Romulan nation re-settles on Vulcan and is not forced to adopt orthodox Surakism, I suspect Vulcan doesn't engage in overt discrimination against non-Surakian minorities.

That and bonding a child to marriage and fights to the death over mates.

And then the Federation is like, "Wait, do you actually force them to marry against their will as adults? No? And everyone knows what they're entering into with this ritual combat and it occurs on the basis of consent? Yeah? Okay, that's fine then."

Possibly problematic from a Human standpoint, but not oppressive of fundamental rights.

 

[BillJ]

"Wait, do you actually force them to marry against their will as adults? No?...

No, they force them into mental bondage as children...

By our parents' arrangement. A ceremony while we were but seven years of age. Less than a marriage but more than a betrothal. One touches the other in order to feel each other's thoughts. In this way our minds were locked together, so that at the proper time, we would both be drawn to Koon-ut-kal-if-fee.

Doesn't sound like choice is involved in any way. You are forced to fight to the death for your freedom if you want a divorce.

The Star Trek Transcripts - Amok Time (chakoteya.net)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

No, they force them into mental bondage as children...



Doesn't sound like choice is involved in any way. You are forced to fight to the death for your freedom if you want a divorce.

The Star Trek Transcripts - Amok Time (chakoteya.net)

Yep. Vulcans commit their children to arranged marriages. Logical on the outside, savage on the inside.

 

[Sci]

No, they force them into mental bondage as children...



Doesn't sound like choice is involved in any way. You are forced to fight to the death for your freedom if you want a divorce.

The Star Trek Transcripts - Amok Time (chakoteya.net)

As I recall, the kal-if-fee is usually a result of a Vulcan who's gone too long in pon farr without mating and is extremely rare, and the one in "Amok Time" was precisely because T'Pring was trying to force the situation by not fully breaking the bond until after Spock's pon farr had set in.

We know from SNW that engaged couples have the right to terminate their relationship, and we know from ENT S1 and S3 (T'Pol and Koss) that members of a betrothed couple can call it off, and that married Vulcans can get a divorce, all with relative ease.

Yep. Vulcans commit their children to arranged marriages. Logical on the outside, savage on the inside.

I mean, arranged marriages are pretty common in Indian culture. Are you saying India is "savage?"

"Arranged marriage" doesn't only encompass non-consensual marriages. The term also encompasses marriages that the parents arrange but which the children have a veto over.

 

[BillJ]

We know from SNW that engaged couples have the right to terminate their relationship, and we know from ENT S1 and S3 (T'Pol and Koss) that members of a betrothed couple can call it off, and that married Vulcans can get a divorce, all with relative ease.

That was all after the fact. Designed to alleviate fan concerns, because those Vulcans and Federation didn't share common values. I think that is the whole point of Vulcans and Spock (originally), is that it is different and strange compared to how we see the world.

To me, it is much more meaningful if two (or more) cultures with completely different mindsets can work together in common cause without having to sacrifice who they are.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I mean, arranged marriages are pretty common in Indian culture. Are you saying India is "savage?"

Are Indians famous for their logic? No? Then, no. Obviously that sentence was specifically about Vulcans and no other species or people. The additional context in which the sentence occurs may be found in what was quoted.

 

[Sci]

That was all after the fact. Designed to alleviate fan concerns, because those Vulcans and Federation didn't share common values. I think that is the whole point of Vulcans and Spock (originally), is that it is different and strange compared to how we see the world.

To me, it is much more meaningful if two (or more) cultures with completely different mindsets can work together in common cause without having to sacrifice who they are.

I don't think SNW has established much that ENT didn't already establish via the T'Pol/Koss arc.

 

[Sci]

Are Indians are famous for their logic? No? Then, no. Obviously that sentence was specifically about Vulcans and no other species or people.

Then I would strongly urge you not to use words like "savage" to describe real-life cultural practices (especially those that can manifest in more than one form).

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Then I would strongly urge you not to use words like "savage" to describe real-life cultural practices (especially those that can manifest in more than one form).

As I added after your post here, additional context for the use of the word savage may be found in what was quoted, regarding being forced to fight to the death, a savage practice if there ever was one.

If you have a problem with my use of the word "savage" in the context of fighting to the death as a result of an arranged marriage, please hit "report."

 

[Sci]

As I added after your post here, additional context for the use of the word savage may be found in what was quoted, regarding being forced to fight to the death, a savage practice if there ever was one.

If you have a problem with my use of the word "savage" in the context of fighting to the death as a result of an arranged marriage, please hit "report."

Dude, I'm just asking you to be more sensitive about how your words might come across even if you don't mean ill. I'm not making a federal case out of it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I can see the appeal of an arranged marriage to a logical culture. Fights to the death, not so much.

 

[Citiprime]

Given the structure of Vulcan society, their marriages have to be arranged by some process that operates on a level other than love/affection because the alternative would mean a species that's supposed to suppress emotion having to make a choice about mating based on emotion.