Were there other Enterprises between the NX-01 and the NCC-1701?

[evilchumlee]

Y’all are doing this for fun, right? This arguing over what the real facts are in a fictional futuristic narrative is a way to maximize your entertainment value, yes?

That should go without saying, and I feel like it's mildly insulting to even bring up in an online forum devoted to Star Trek...

By the way, ENT made an adjustment in the Gorn. Their Gorn in "... Mirror..." was not screen-accurate to the Gorn in "Arena." Why?

Everyone draws their line somewhere.

I'm generally ok with changing things that haven't been reaffirmed at some point. For instance, had "Relics", "Trials and Tribbelations" and "In a Mirror, Darkly" never happened and we never revisited the Enterprise from that era... I would be more open to changes and updates. But on three separate occasions in three separate shows, we have established that it is very much the way that part of the work looked, that's what happened.

Or alternatively, if Paramount just decided to say "TOS is no longer considered part of the universe"... I mean first they would feel the wrath of that decision... but ultimately then, ok whatever?

Paramount has continued to double down and say "TOS happened". So. Given that it's their work, I believe them. They say it happened. It happened. If you're saying it didn't, you're factually incorrect according to Paramount.

 

[fireproof78]

Which is part of why I take their word more seriously and not an attempt to lie to us. It's all a lie, ultimately. But saying that because it looks different therefore it must be different, rather than a dramatic interpretation is were the line is for me. I don't adhere to the strict literalist view of TOS as history. A version of history, perhaps, but not one that I take fully literally, especially since there are aberrations in the story, that are clearly there for dramatic purposes. The Menagerie is one such example at the end.

SNW, like ENT, also has a built in excuse. So, I treat it as "Yes, TOS happened, but probably not literally."

Others will view it differently. TMP gets less grace from me than ENT does and TMP does not connect to TOS for me. Mileage, etc.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The Dedication plaque of the Enterprise is visible on-screen in SNW and list the length as 442m.

I love how that plaque still has the phrase STARSHIP CLASS on it, but adds a word. STARSHIP CLASS: CONSTITUTION.

 

[Dukhat]

The great thing about SNW is that you can either treat it like a prequel to TOS, or you can treat it like a reboot! It’s your choice, because it’s all fiction. Just like those godawful Prometheus films. You can treat them as prequels to Alien, or you can treat them as their own thing which happens to share some similar concepts as the 1979 film but isn’t completely linked to it. Or the Bumblebee films, which can be viewed as either prequels to the 2007 film and its sequels, or can be treated as a reboot.

Nothing is set in stone in these fictional universes.

 

[fireproof78]

Or as its own separate thing.

 

[FederationHistorian]

It is as far as canon is concerned. Because no one in authority has stated that the holodeck program was anything but completely historically accurate, and Riker & Troi were treating it as completely historically accurate as well.

So, if the holoprogram is based off a book that Minister Samuels wrote about the crew, Riker and Troi are supposed to trust it by default?

Just like you signature suggests to not believe everything on the internet, it can be adapted to say that you shouldn’t believe everything on the holodeck.

Huh? Troi says nothing of the sort. Her comment has to do with her personally wanting to tell the people that this ceremony will bring about the birth of the Federation, not that the program was historically inaccurate.

Well, the interpretation I gave is also the basis in the novels to retconning TATV to having occurred years earlier. Not to mention its not an either/or situation. Both can be true.

Not to sound like I’m burdening anyone with my own emotional dysregulation but I need a little reassurance because this appears to currently be the main thing updating on the Enterprise forum.

Y’all are doing this for fun, right? This arguing over what the real facts are in a fictional futuristic narrative is a way to maximize your entertainment value, yes?

I often try to educate and clarify, so that everyone can enjoy the show more.

 

[Dukhat]

So, if the holoprogram is based off a book that Minister Samuels wrote about the crew, Riker and Troi are supposed to trust it by default?

That's supposition. For all we know, someone went back in time and recorded all of that, then went forward in time and made the hologram recreation of it. But that's really not important, because...

Just like you signature suggests to not believe everything on the internet, it can be adapted to say that you shouldn’t believe everything on the holodeck.

I saw TATV with my own eyes. And nothing I saw has been retconned away as historically inaccurate by the people who are currently in charge of deciding what's canon or not. You are welcome to think that the program was faulty, as is your right as a fan of this fictional made-up universe. All I am saying is that until CBS makes a statement retconning what we saw, I take it at face value, warts and all.

Well, the interpretation I gave is also the basis in the novels to retconning TATV to having occurred years earlier. Not to mention its not an either/or situation. Both can be true.

Again, you are welcome to think that. I think you are taking her line completely out of context just to justify your belief.

 

[Ovation]

Curt Swan Superman. Or Wayne Boring. Or Neil Adams. Or Jim Lee. Or… Visual representations of entirely fictional events across decades by different artists. And as different as they might appear from each other, each is instantly recognizable as the same thing.

It’s really just that simple.

 

[Sci]

Curt Swan Superman. Or Wayne Boring. Or Neil Adams. Or Jim Lee. Or… Visual representations of entirely fictional events across decades by different artists. And as different as they might appear from each other, each is instantly recognizable as the same thing.

It’s really just that simple.

Yep.

Listen, if you really want to have an in-universe rationalization for the differences between the SNW Enterprise and the TOS Enterprise, you can assume the ship gets a refit at some point.

If you don't need an in-universe explanation, you can just assume that it's the same ship and it's always looked that way, whichever way it happens to be in the episode you're watching, and the differences no more need to be explained than the differences between the Curt Swan Superman and the Neil Adams Superman.

 

[FederationHistorian]

I saw TATV with my own eyes. And nothing I saw has been retconned away as historically inaccurate by the people who are currently in charge of deciding what's canon or not. You are welcome to think that the program was faulty, as is your right as a fan of this fictional made-up universe. All I am saying is that until CBS makes a statement retconning what we saw, I take it at face value, warts and all.

And I saw both TATV and the PIC episode “The Bounty” with my own eyes. CBS already made an below-the-radar retcon of TATV with the NX-01 being a refit at the Fleet Museum.

Yep.

Listen, if you really want to have an in-universe rationalization for the differences between the SNW Enterprise and the TOS Enterprise, you can assume the ship gets a refit at some point.

If you don't need an in-universe explanation, you can just assume that it's the same ship and it's always looked that way, whichever way it happens to be in the episode you're watching, and the differences no more need to be explained than the differences between the Curt Swan Superman and the Neil Adams Superman.

It was established by PIC that the SNW-era Connie and the TOS-era Connie both existed.

Its not that big of a deal.

 

[Dukhat]

And I saw both TATV and the PIC episode “The Bounty” with my own eyes. CBS already made a below-the-radar retcon of TATV with the NX-01 being a refit at the Fleet Museum.

But that’s not what they did. They showed the NX-01 at the Museum with a secondary hull, as a tribute to Doug Drexler. That was the extent of their logic concerning this. It was not meant to retcon TATV.

 

[fireproof78]

If you don't need an in-universe explanation, you can just assume that it's the same ship and it's always looked that way, whichever way it happens to be in the episode you're watching, and the differences no more need to be explained than the differences between the Curt Swan Superman and the Neil Adams Superman.

If it was good enough for Roddenberry.

 

[FederationHistorian]

But that’s not what they did. They showed the NX-01 at the Museum with a secondary hull, as a tribute to Doug Drexler. That was the extent of their logic concerning this. It was not meant to retcon TATV.

Well, it might not be good enough for you, but its good enough for me to think that the ENT portion of events in TATV were retconned to having actually took place in 2156. With other aspects of the holoprogram being filled in by Starfleet records (Hoshi’s service), and log entries/biographies (Trip & T’Pol’s relationship, Archer and Trip’s friendship, Shran’s faked death) for Starfleet Intelligence reasons.

It would also mean that Archer had the original 5-year mission. Which makes TATV a better tribute to TOS and all of Trek, as the episode was intended to be to begin with.

 

[Dukhat]

Well, it might not be good enough for you, but its good enough for me to think that the ENT portion of events in TATV were retconned to having actually took place in 2156. With other aspects of the holoprogram being filled in by Starfleet records (Hoshi’s service), and log entries/biographies (Trip & T’Pol’s relationship, Archer and Trip’s friendship, Shran’s faked death) for Starfleet Intelligence reasons.

And as I mentioned before, you are welcome to think that. But that was not the PIC producers' intent, nor has CBS made any official statement that TATV has been retconned. And even so, having a secondary hull added to the ship still doesn't fix TATV's inherently fundamental problems. And while you can think that what we saw in the holoprogram didn't exactly happen that way, we still wouldn't know how it did happen unless those events were shown to us. So any speculation in that regard would just be head-canon.

It would also mean that Archer had the original 5-year mission. Which makes TATV a better tribute to TOS and all of Trek, as the episode was intended to be to begin with.

Again, that's just your head-canon. If you have proof from the producers of PIC that TATV now takes place in 2156, let me know.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm unaware of anything in canon that precludes the possibility of the NX-01 being refit and going on further missions and adventures after the events depicted in TATV. Is there?

 

[fireproof78]

would also mean that Archer had the original 5-year mission. Which makes TATV a better tribute to TOS and all of Trek, as the episode was intended to be to begin with.

That's terrible.

 

[Dukhat]

I'm unaware of anything in canon that precludes the possibility of the NX-01 being refit and going on further missions and adventures after the events depicted in TATV. Is there?

Other than not being referred to as the 'first Federation starship to bear the name,' no.

 

[FederationHistorian]

I'm unaware of anything in canon that precludes the possibility of the NX-01 being refit and going on further missions and adventures after the events depicted in TATV. Is there?

No. But then it would be considered a Federation ship if it was still active. And it would probably be used to train cadets of the first Starfleet Academy class. Instead of going on more adventures. There were other NX refits, as well as the Daedalus class, for that.

The NX-01 could have been taken out of drydock at some point, a la TSFS. But there's never been anything, either in canon or novel contitnuty, that such an event ever happened.

That's terrible.

To you.

 

[Dukhat]

No. But then it would be considered a Federation ship if it was still active. And it would probably be used to train cadets of the first Starfleet Academy class.

Or they could have sold it to Royal Galactic Cruise Lines as a cruise ship. That's no different than what you're speculating. And for all we know, they added that secondary hull in 2400.

Either way, it's not proof that TATV has been retconned.

 

[fireproof78]

To you.

Yes, that is the nature of the discourse.

I have yet to be granted god powers to speak for many.