News? Stories from Dubious Sources

[fireproof78]

How about we pull a page from BATTLESTAR GALACTICA, and just reboot every 20 years?

Yes, please.

Didn't they do a lot of that in the Abramsverse set IDW comics?

They did in some stories. It was mixed.

Many Star Trek fans like the franchise because of the large established lore and universe building. Why couldn't a follow up to certain TOS plot points that keeps all that continuity not work set in say in the mid 25th century?

It potentially can but won't necessarily draw in new fans.

Which is fine by me if we don't want new fans. And keep the very insular story style telling and promote that depth of lore. I think there is a place for it, but I don't think it will do the best that Trek could do.

 

[Campe]

The problem with not at least trying to reach new fans. At some point, we all will either stop caring about Star Trek or no longer be able to watch Star Trek. That leads to two possibilities:

1. They will stop producing Trek because no one cares
2. They will reboot Trek to try to appeal to a younger audience

 

[Dukhat]

The problem with not at least trying to reach new fans. At some point, we all will either stop caring about Star Trek or no longer be able to watch Star Trek. That leads to two possibilities:

1. They will stop producing Trek because no one cares
2. They will reboot Trek to try to appeal to a younger audience

Star Trek is too much of a cultural phenomenon for people, either fans or producers, to just completely give up on it. However, I don't see the present strategy of making five continuously running TV shows (which causes oversaturation and 'franchise fatigue'), or continually making announcements about a new film that will never get made after an 8 year glut of movies (which makes fans more and more disinterested in Trek films) is the answer. Neither is pimping out an 83-year-old man with promises of "MORE PICARD!!!" , unfairly teasing fans with your wishful thinking about a new show that TPTB have no interest in making, and making it sound like an actual thing (I'm looking at you, Terry "Legacy' Matalas), or making shows and TV movies that nobody asked for just because they're cheap to produce (I'm looking at you, SFA and Section 31.)

I also think there's a fine line between catering new Trek to appeal to a younger audience, and alienating the old audience who are very much still active. I myself don't know where that line is. The last time that a particular idea appealed to me and that I felt was a good all-around solution was Bryan Fuller's original idea for an anthology show, where we would see the show taking place in different eras and ultimately ending up in a new era where they could start fresh. But I think that ship has sailed.

 

[Campe]

I generally agree with the idea that five shows is a little too much. But I do know that at some point, all of us here will be dead or not care about Star Trek. What happens then? We might be talking 30-40 years down the line, but at some point, people just aren't going to care about that show from 1966 or 1987. You have to bring it into the modern times. When we got the first inklings about a new Trek show, I either wanted something completely different than we've seen or just a full-on reboot. Start the whole thing over. Use what we have as a tapestry to pull from but start it fresh. What we've gotten, largely, is just more of the same. Do I enjoy it? Yeah, for the most part. Even parts of Picard season 3 were fun and enjoyable. But overall, I'd like something fresh. There were parts of Discovery during season 1 where I was truly enthralled because it was different. But honestly, Spock's adopted sister, bringing in the Klingons as the baddie, Sarek and Amanda, Harry Mudd, the Mirror Universe and as much as I like Pike and SNW, the Enterprise at the end of the season, in my eyes, just brought it all back to the formula.

 

[Dukhat]

The inherent problem is that the people producing Star Trek are too afraid to take risks. Too different, and it's not 'Trek." Too similar, and it's 'more of the same.' And as a fan, I myself am guilty of wanting one or the other, and not being satisfied with what we got either way. So again, where is that fine line? Beats me.

But as far as where Trek will be when we're dead and gone? Well, there are fans of classical music that has withstood the test of time. Things go out of fashion and then come back in. I think the message Star Trek sends withstands the test of time. But it's only as good as the people in charge of it make it.

 

[fireproof78]

Even parts of Picard season 3 were fun and enjoyable. But overall, I'd like something fresh. There were parts of Discovery during season 1 where I was truly enthralled because it was different. But honestly, Spock's adopted sister, bringing in the Klingons as the baddie, Sarek and Amanda, Harry Mudd, the Mirror Universe and as much as I like Pike and SNW, the Enterprise at the end of the season, in my eyes, just brought it all back to the formula.

Agreed for the most part. Which is why both Section 31 and Starfleet Academy are the most exciting upcoming shows for me. It might turn out terribly. Oh no. Won't someone think of the children?

But, it might do something different enough that brings in younger viewers and encourages older viewers to engage with something outside their comfort zone, rather than being fed the same and the same being told that's all Trek is good for.

 

[Campe]

Oh no doubt that the lack of risk is the issue. We’re also in this weird time where everything is nostalgia based. People want the warm and fuzzies but are too afraid to say, “Hey, remember when Star Trek challenged society?” Yeah, it was an action/adventure series, but also with some good messaging that got past the censors. I haven’t seen a lot of that in any iteration of modern Trek, save for a few episodes of SNW.

 

[fireproof78]

Oh no doubt that the lack of risk is the issue. We’re also in this weird time where everything is nostalgia based. People want the warm and fuzzies but are too afraid to say, “Hey, remember when Star Trek challenged society?” Yeah, it was an action/adventure series, but also with some good messaging that got past the censors. I haven’t seen a lot of that in any iteration of modern Trek, save for a few episodes of SNW.

It reminds me of a quote from one of Heinlein's books. "You are a romantic. Now this is a romantic age so it doesn't call for romantics, but pragmatic leaders."

Essentially, we are in a place were the comfort is more important than the messaging because right now times are not very comfortable.

 

[BillJ]

And keep the very insular story style telling and promote that depth of lore.

I grew really tired of this a long time ago. I remember when the TV series would create and then the novels/comics would come along and fill in the cracks for those that were interested.

Now it seems, all we have left are the cracks.

 

[Campe]

It reminds me of a quote from one of Heinlein's books. "You are a romantic. Now this is a romantic age so it doesn't call for romantics, but pragmatic leaders."

Essentially, we are in a place were the comfort is more important than the messaging because right now times are not very comfortable.

I mean, I get that, but as a society, we had our issues in the 80s and 90s as much as we do in the 2020s. I think we have this romanticized view of our younger years being so much better than now. Perhaps we were ignorant to what was going on in the world.

I grew really tired of this a long time ago. I remember when the TV series would create and then the novels/comics would come along and fill in the cracks for those that were interested.

Now it seems, all we have left are the cracks.

Well said.

 

[eschaton]

I'm not really sure I agree that Trek got oversaturated over the last few years. Certainly there were less complaints about that than there was with say the MCU or Star Wars. Unlike those franchises, which tend to have a distinct "house style" Trek has also been all over the map since 2017 in terms of tone (even within individual series, given Picard and Discovery both effectively rebooted each season).

Trek has already been belt tightening as well. Discovery is done after this year. Prodigy's Season 2 is being released on Netflix, but the show is essentially dead letter. Picard is over. It seems clear we're not going to see a year like 2023 again any time soon, where there was a new episode of Star Trek almost every week.

Oh no doubt that the lack of risk is the issue. We’re also in this weird time where everything is nostalgia based. People want the warm and fuzzies but are too afraid to say, “Hey, remember when Star Trek challenged society?” Yeah, it was an action/adventure series, but also with some good messaging that got past the censors. I haven’t seen a lot of that in any iteration of modern Trek, save for a few episodes of SNW.

I agree that didactic "message-based" episodes are a classic element of the Trek formula which has largely been absent from more recent shows. I think this is partially due to the tilt towards serialization, as trying to do this is much harder unless you make the entire season about a political message. Yet newer Trek in general seems to be nervous about taking stronger political statements than "fascism is bad, I guess" or "don't be a bigot" for some reason.

 

[fireproof78]

I grew really tired of this a long time ago. I remember when the TV series would create and then the novels/comics would come along and fill in the cracks for those that were interested.

Now it seems, all we have left are the cracks.

It is an interesting shift to observe. I recall, growing up with Trek, filling in those cracks with my imagination, or reading books. One of my favorites was a follow up to All our Yesterdays, and Zarabeth having a son. Nowhere did I think it needed to be a TV episode: it was a fun book. Same with any other follow ups.

Nowadays, it seems that is all that is expressly desired is the follow up. "Where is so-and-so? Wouldn't it be great if we saw the Dominion, or Klingons or whatever?" Now, I may have my reluctant views on TNG but it at least offered up different aliens and stories, and tried one follow up from one story but that was about it. It dared to be different. I didn't like it but it still dared and I have a grudging respect for several episodes and like some of the minor characters.

Point is, it can be done. It can be done with gusto, even and have fun, dare I say.

I mean, I get that, but as a society, we had our issues in the 80s and 90s as much as we do in the 2020s. I think we have this romanticized view of our younger years being so much better than now. Perhaps we were ignorant to what was going on in the world.

Oh, I agree. Nowadays, we actually proclaim as a virtue not being responsible. I recall that being a bad thing, and something of a "slacker" mentality. But now you have the huge anti-work movement, the lamenting of responsibilities and the desire for something safe and secure, rather than owning the challenge of real life.

It's laughable if not tragic.

Yes, we had issues, and more besides, back then. People just were blissfully ignorant of it, though I heard the end of the world, and coming ice age, and on and on, when I was younger. I feared it then; I don't fear it now. I move for being as responsible as you can possibly in your day to day.

 

[BillJ]

I mean, I get that, but as a society, we had our issues in the 80s and 90s as much as we do in the 2020s. I think we have this romanticized view of our younger years being so much better than now. Perhaps we were ignorant to what was going on in the world.

I think now, more than any time in my life, I need Star Trek to challenge me. Not just hand me more and more of what I already had. I know Discovery tried the jump to the 32nd century, but they didn't seem to really change anything and made sure to give us the Voyager-J in case we forgot we were watching Star Trek.

 

[BillJ]

It is an interesting shift to observe. I recall, growing up with Trek, filling in those cracks with my imagination, or reading books. One of my favorites was a follow up to All our Yesterdays, and Zarabeth having a son. Nowhere did I think it needed to be a TV episode: it was a fun book. Same with any other follow ups.

"Yesterday's Son" and "Time for Yesterday" by AC Crispin. Good books.

 

[eschaton]

I think now, more than any time in my life, I need Star Trek to challenge me. Not just hand me more and more of what I already had. I know Discovery tried the jump to the 32nd century, but they didn't seem to really change anything and made sure to give us the Voyager-J in case we forgot we were watching Star Trek.

They really missed the ball in Season 3 by not making the 32nd century totally alien, allowing for a huge "culture shock" subplot to take place.

Though I still feel a better option would have been if the uptime Federation had all ascended into energy beings a century or so before they arrived, with Discovery showing up to a nearly empty far future full of scattered luddite colonies, randos left in stasis, and technological marvels beyond comprehension.

 

[BillJ]

They really missed the ball in Season 3 by not making the 32nd century totally alien, allowing for a huge "culture shock" subplot to take place.

Though I still feel a better option would have been if the uptime Federation had all ascended into energy beings a century or so before they arrived, with Discovery showing up to a nearly empty far future full of scattered luddite colonies, randos left in stasis, and technological marvels beyond comprehension.

I think Paramount's plans are to ride Trek into the ground until nothing profitable is left, then toss it like a used condom.

 

[James Cole]

It potentially can but won't necessarily draw in new fans.

Which is fine by me if we don't want new fans. And keep the very insular story style telling and promote that depth of lore. I think there is a place for it, but I don't think it will do the best that Trek could do.

&

I also think there's a fine line between catering new Trek to appeal to a younger audience, and alienating the old audience who are very much still active. I myself don't know where that line is. The last time that a particular idea appealed to me and that I felt was a good all-around solution was Bryan Fuller's original idea for an anthology show, where we would see the show taking place in different eras and ultimately ending up in a new era where they could start fresh. But I think that ship has sailed.

TNG successfully squared the circle by following up with TOS on TV.

Some people here act like every prior episode in Star Trek's what 600+ episode history has the density of THE X-FILES mythology. If Legacy would be the Next Next Generation, what could a Next Next Next Generation be, set in the say 2460's to put it 200 years post TOS and 80ish years post TNG/DS9/VGR midpoint?

Slipstream should be a thing by then... so explore new areas of the galaxy. They could easily come back home and follow up on established species, just as TNG did with the Klingons, Romulans, etc. Don't put in things that unnecessarily cross the red lines of established fans. If you want to follow up a prior episode, don't make it a mystery box and instead put it in a "last time on Star Trek..." segment before the opening teaser.

It shouldn't be this hard...

 

[Quinton]

I'm not trying to police folks or anything, but it is kind of funny how off-topic this has veered. Or arguably not veered. I suppose it depends on one's POV.

 

[Campe]

Nowadays, it seems that is all that is expressly desired is the follow up. "Where is so-and-so? Wouldn't it be great if we saw the Dominion, or Klingons or whatever?" Now, I may have my reluctant views on TNG but it at least offered up different aliens and stories, and tried one follow up from one story but that was about it. It dared to be different. I didn't like it but it still dared and I have a grudging respect for several episodes and like some of the minor characters.

The occasional follow-up is fine, but having a whole series around the idea of checking in? I just can’t see how that’s sustainable. Or interesting, honestly.

Point is, it can be done. It can be done with gusto, even and have fun, dare I say.

God forbid we have a little fun in our Trek.

I think now, more than any time in my life, I need Star Trek to challenge me. Not just hand me more and more of what I already had. I know Discovery tried the jump to the 32nd century, but they didn't seem to really change anything and made sure to give us the Voyager-J in case we forgot we were watching Star Trek.

I mean, I think episodes like “Strange New Worlds” saying that our current political climate is unsustainable, “Lift Us Where Suffering Cannot Reach” which as a tearjerkingly hard hour to get through still challenges preconceptions of just sitting by while horrible things happen to kids and “Ad Astra per Aspera,” all about acceptance, makes Strange New Worlds that kind of show. At the same time having some damned fun episodes like “Spock Amok”, “Charades”, “Those Old Scientists” and “Subspace Rhapsody,” just makes it FOR ME, the best of these series.

 

[eschaton]

&

TNG successfully squared the circle by following up with TOS on TV.

Some people here act like every prior episode in Star Trek's what 600+ episode history has the density of THE X-FILES mythology. If Legacy would be the Next Next Generation, what could a Next Next Next Generation be, set in the say 2460's to put it 200 years post TOS and 80ish years post TNG/DS9/VGR midpoint?

Slipstream should be a thing by then... so explore new areas of the galaxy. They could easily come back home and follow up on established species, just as TNG did with the Klingons, Romulans, etc. Don't put in things that unnecessarily cross the red lines of established fans. If you want to follow up a prior episode, don't make it a mystery box and instead put it in a "last time on Star Trek..." segment before the opening teaser.

It shouldn't be this hard...

Trek has failed at this, repeatedly though. Even going back to Berman Trek. VOY gave up on pilot's conceit of conflict between the Federation and Maquis crewmembers, and largely squandered any promise being isolated in the Delta Quadrant had (focusing on the Borg in later seasons, and even finding excuses to bring in familiar races through the holodeck and such). Enterprise was supposed to be a prequel, and ended up just operating exactly like TNG and VOY, with a bit of different terminology (hull plating, not shields, etc.)

In the end, you can either do plot-based or character-based writing. If you're doing plot based writing, and you do several hundred episodes, you're going to recycle the same plot ideas, and your characters will do the hero stuff, and solve them in derivative ways.

In contrast, if you do character-based writing, you never run out of new ideas, because there's always something new to plumb in terms of how the main characters interact, and how they, in particular, will respond to the crisis of the week. Which is why DS9 succeeded on a creative level where VOY and ENT mostly failed.