What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Citiprime]

In For All Mankind, TWOK would be impossible. In the remote chance it would happen, it would be unrecognizable and probably nowhere near as good.

The Enterprise would be the Phase II Enterprise. If Ph2 ran from 1977 to 1982 and TWOK came out in 1983, those sets as were would've been laughed at on the Big Screen. Robert Wise gave the sets an extensive makeover for a reason.

Xon would've been in Phase II instead of Spock. Which means "Star Trek without Spock!" goes from unimaginable to something they'd already done for five years. So, no Spock in TWOK, and no Harve Bennett offering to kill off Spock as a hook to get Leonard Nimoy involved. In fact, no Harve Bennett at all. More on that later.

The script for a Star Trek Movie would've been written in-house by Phase II writers, just like the script for the first TNG Movie was written in-house by TNG writers. And they likely would've come up with a very different idea, that they would've rushed through the creative process, just like what happened IRL over a decade later with Generations. The script for TWOK was put together from the best parts of several different scripts written by several different writers.

A first Star Trek movie in For All Mankind would be a cheap-looking rush job put together by TV writers, a TV director, and it would be something that Gene Roddenberry would approve of. Because I think what would've happened on Phase II would've been similar to what happened on TNG. Gene would be heavily involved at first, then less involved as time went on. Only difference is he'd still be alive, wouldn't be in such poor health, and would have more power than "Consultant". He would very much be an Executive Producer. Which means no need to bring in Harve Bennett to replace him. And even if Harve Bennett (who was hired by Paramount in 1980) was brought on as a Co-Executive Producer similar to the way Rick Berman was, he wasn't on the same page as Gene Roddenberry at all on the direction Star Trek should go in, so he wouldn't have lasted long on Phase II in any scenario. Forget about making it to the movies.

So, basically, it's a whole other movie. TWOK isn't TWOK and the TOS Movies go in a very different direction. Assuming they'd get to make any, since I think this movie would've been crushed by Return of the Jedi.

Maybe in that timeline, Phase II undergoes the same production process that TNG went through (since Decker and Ilia are thinly veiled early versions of Riker and Troi anyway), and Roddenberry was either forced out or pushed to the background after season 1 and someone new brought in had the backing of Paramount to reshape Star Trek?

Season 1 and 2 - Basically the V'GER story but with Kirk as always being the Captain of the Enterprise with Xon, Decker, and Ilia added to the cast (i.e., getting the crew back together, episodic adventures that lead to the confrontation with V'GER). You could rewrite the Spock parts to be about Xon having issues dealing with having an emotional reaction. Just like The Motion Picture and TNG seasons 1 and 2, this receives a lukewarm reaction, and just like Voyager years later on UPN, the series endures anyway since it's the anchor of Paramount's new network.

What if by season 3 someone like Harve Bennett is brought in to take over and change the direction of the show?

Seasons 3-5 - The time in-between The Motion Picture and The Wrath of Khan, maybe the maroon uniforms come out and the storylines become more militaristic which maybe just like TNG finds lightning in a bottle and creates something that captures people's imagination the same way that "Best of Both Worlds" did and turns the show into a hot enough property to warrant a movie.

For the first movie they decide they need something BIG to draw in viewers and were able to do that by promising Leonard Nimoy to kill him off in a spectacular fashion. Instead of the crossover between TNG and TOS, what can you do that would be similar? Bring back Spock. If you tweak The Wrath of Khan to also be about Kirk and Spock reconnecting after a prolonged time, that arguably makes the sacrifice at the end even more gut wrenching and you can basically have the same film with the same beats.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

In For All Mankind, TWOK would be impossible. In the remote chance it would happen, it would be unrecognizable and probably nowhere near as good.

The Enterprise would be the Phase II Enterprise. If Ph2 ran from 1977 to 1982 and TWOK came out in 1983, those sets as were would've been laughed at on the Big Screen. Robert Wise gave the sets an extensive makeover for a reason.

Xon would've been in Phase II instead of Spock. Which means "Star Trek without Spock!" goes from unimaginable to something they'd already done for five years. So, no Spock in TWOK, and no Harve Bennett offering to kill off Spock as a hook to get Leonard Nimoy involved. In fact, no Harve Bennett at all. More on that later.

The script for a Star Trek Movie would've been written in-house by Phase II writers, just like the script for the first TNG Movie was written in-house by TNG writers. And they likely would've come up with a very different idea, that they would've rushed through the creative process, just like what happened IRL over a decade later with Generations. The script for TWOK was put together from the best parts of several different scripts written by several different writers.

A first Star Trek movie in For All Mankind would be a cheap-looking rush job put together by TV writers, a TV director, and it would be something that Gene Roddenberry would approve of. Because I think what would've happened on Phase II would've been similar to what happened on TNG. Gene would be heavily involved at first, then less involved as time went on. Only difference is he'd still be alive, wouldn't be in such poor health, and would have more power than "Consultant". He would very much be an Executive Producer. Which means no need to bring in Harve Bennett to replace him. And even if Harve Bennett (who was hired by Paramount in 1980) was brought on as a Co-Executive Producer similar to the way Rick Berman was, he wasn't on the same page as Gene Roddenberry at all on the direction Star Trek should go in, so he wouldn't have lasted long on Phase II in any scenario. Forget about making it to the movies.

So, basically, it's a whole other movie. TWOK isn't TWOK and the TOS Movies go in a very different direction. Assuming they'd get to make any, since I think this movie would've been crushed by Return of the Jedi.

IOW, thankfully, we live in the correct timeline and not one where Phase II under Roddenberry had been greenlit as a weekly series.

Just imagine, a 22 - 26 episode season of TMP-styled scripts....oh, the freaking horror.

 

[Nerys Myk]

IOW, thankfully, we live in the correct timeline and not one where Phase II under Roddenberry had been greenlit as a weekly series.

Just imagine, a 22 - 26 episode season of TMP-styled scripts....oh, the freaking horror.

The planned episodes sound pretty typical of Star Trek and two were refurbished as TNG episodes
Via wiki

"In Thy Image" Alan Dean Foster
The two-hour pilot that eventually became Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Alan Dean Foster's story outline was based on a premise written by Gene Roddenberry for Genesis 2, named "Robot's Return". A huge starship crosses the universe looking for its creator on Earth.[48]
"Tomorrow and the Stars" Larry Alexander
During a Klingon attack, Kirk orders an emergency beamup and is transported to Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, just before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and falls in love with a woman living there. The plot is similar to that of the film The Final Countdown (1980) and of the Original Series episode "The City on the Edge of Forever".[56]
"Cassandra" Theodore Sturgeon
The Enterprise mediates a dispute between two worlds over "The Monitor", while a clumsy ensign takes care of an infant alien who can foretell the future. Based on the story of Cassandra.[57]
"The Child" Jaron Summers and Jon Povill
A being of light impregnates Ilia to experience life as a Deltan. The Enterprise's hull begins to fail as they come across a strange nebula.[58] A revised version of this script was later filmed as an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.
"Kitumba" John Meredyth Lucas
The Enterprise is sent to the Klingon homeworld to help Ksia, a tutor to the underage Klingon leader, to stop his regent from making war on the Federation. This would have been a two-part episode.[59]
"Practice in Waking" Richard Bach
The Enterprise comes across a sleeper ship where Decker, Scotty, and Sulu get trapped in a simulation of the 16th-century witch-burnings.[60]
"Deadlock" David Ambrose
While searching for a missing starship, the Enterprise is recalled to a Starbase to engage in a strange war game.[61]
"Savage Syndrome" Margaret Armen and Alfred Harris
While investigating an ancient starship, the Enterprise is hit with a blinding light that brainwashes the crew, reverting them to savages.[62]
"Are Unheard Melodies Sweet?" Worley Thorne
While searching for a missing starship, the Enterprise comes across a world in need of men.[63]
"Devil's Due" William Douglas Lansford
As the Enterprise makes first contact with the planet Neuterra, the mythical creature Komether appears to claim it, having purchased the planet in exchange for peace millennia ago.[64] A revised version of this script was later filmed as an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.
"Lord Bobby's Obsession" Shimon Wincelberg
The Enterprise comes across a derelict Klingon Cruiser with one life form aboard – one Lord Bobby from Earth's late 19th century.[65]
"To Attain the All" Norman Spinrad
The Enterprise gets caught in a solar system-sized logic game where, if you win, you "attain the All", a huge repository of knowledge.[66]
"The War to End All Wars" Arthur Bernard Lewis
Derived from part of a discarded script treatment about warring androids on the planet Shadir ("A War to End Wars" by Richard Bach), the Enterprise rescues a female android, Yra, whose planet's successful philosophy of "peace through war" has been corrupted by a leader named Plateous III.[67]

 

[Lord Garth]

Season 1 and 2 - Basically the V'GER story but with Kirk as always being the Captain of the Enterprise with Xon, Decker, and Ilia added to the cast (i.e., getting the crew back together, episodic adventures that lead to the confrontation with V'GER). You could rewrite the Spock parts to be about Xon having issues dealing with having an emotional reaction. Just like The Motion Picture and TNG seasons 1 and 2, this receives a lukewarm reaction, and just like Voyager years later on UPN, the series endures anyway since it's the anchor of Paramount's new network.

In the For All Mankind Reality, Phase II lasts the duration, so it has to endure no matter what.

I have a book for Star Trek: Phase II that I bought when I was in high school, complete with the teleplay for "In Thy Image". Xon was written MUCH differently from Spock and they don't have Xon dealing with the same issues. In TMP, they have it so that Spock is trying to suppress all of his Humanity. Whereas Xon was more curious about Humanity rather than judgmental about it.

The book is Star Trek: Phase II - The Lost Series, by Judith Reeves-Stevens and Garfield Reeves-Stevens.

Star Trek Phase II: The Lost... by Reeves-Stevens, Judith (amazon.com)

What if by season 3 someone like Harve Bennett is brought in to take over and change the direction of the show?

Harve Bennett would have to be brought on in Season 4. 1977-'78 is Season 1. 1978-'79 is Season 2. 1979-'80 is Season 3. Harve Bennett is hired to work for Paramount in 1980. Then 1980-'81, Season 4, would be his first season.

I think if Phase II were having creative problems, they would've brought in someone else earlier than 1980. So that person would have to not work out, in order for Harve Bennett to be brought in.

Seasons 3-5 - The time in-between The Motion Picture and The Wrath of Khan, maybe the maroon uniforms come out and the storylines become more militaristic which maybe just like TNG finds lightning in a bottle and creates something that captures people's imagination the same way that "Best of Both Worlds" did and turns the show into a hot enough property to warrant a movie.

The more militaristic uniforms were Nick Meyer's idea, although I'm sure Harve Bennett didn't complain.

For the first movie they decide they need something BIG to draw in viewers and were able to do that by promising Leonard Nimoy to kill him off in a spectacular fashion. Instead of the crossover between TNG and TOS, what can you do that would be similar? Bring back Spock. If you tweak The Wrath of Khan to also be about Kirk and Spock reconnecting after a prolonged time, that arguably makes the sacrifice at the end even more gut wrenching and you can basically have the same film with the same beats.

This could work.

The only thing I don't like is that we'd have Xon instead of Saavik. That just changes the whole energy of having the other Vulcan there. In a bad way. Kristey Alley was a much better actor and has way more of a screen presence than David Gautreaux.

 

[drt]

The only thing I don't like is that we'd have Xon instead of Saavik. That just changes the whole energy of having the other Vulcan there. In a bad way. Kristey Alley was a much better actor and has way more a screen presence than David Gautreaux.

Although, I suppose we’d have had five years of Gautreaux as Xon, so he’d probably be a beloved character by that point.

 

[FormerLurker]

Decker and Ilia are thinly veiled early versions of Riker and Troi

 

[Citiprime]

Honestly, I'm more interested in the version of Back to the Future in the Fringe alternate timeline where Eric Stolz was never fired and portrayed Marty McFly.

Right here in the really real world, I think they shot almost half of the movie with Stoltz as Marty before director Robert Zemeckis decided he was just wrong for the part, and they were somehow able to convince Universal to reshoot the whole thing.

Reportedly, the sticking point was that Stolz saw the story as a "tragedy" and felt the ending was NOT a happy one since Marty returns to a timeline where he essentially has a family of strangers who are not his real parents and siblings. And Zemeckis felt the comedy bits in the movie didn't work because Stolz played Marty from that perspective.

 

[Lord Garth]

Honestly, I'm more interested in the version of Back to the Future in the Fringe alternate timeline where Eric Stolz was never fired and portrayed Marty McFly.

Right here in the really real world, I think they shot almost half of the movie with Stoltz as Marty before director Robert Zemeckis decided he was just wrong for the part, and they were somehow able to convince Universal to reshoot the whole thing.

Reportedly, the sticking point was that Stolz saw the story as a "tragedy" and felt the ending was NOT a happy one since Marty returns to a timeline where he essentially has a family of strangers who are not his real parents and siblings. And Zemeckis felt the comedy bits in the movie didn't work because Stolz played Marty from that perspective.

I'm still hoping to see Eric Stolz's footage at some point before I die.

 

[Tallguy]

In the For All Mankind Reality, Phase II lasts the duration, so it has to endure no matter what.

I haven't watched FAMK yet. Is this explicitly stated or speculation of an alternate series of events?

 

[Lord Garth]

I haven't watched FAMK yet. Is this explicitly stated or speculation of an alternate series of events?

Never seen the show but, from what I understand, Phase II has its full run, and then TWOK comes out a year later. The movie comes out in 1983 instead of 1982.

I'll be watching For All Mankind at some point in the very near-future. Enough people whose opinions I trust think it's a good series. Plus Ron Moore is involved and it shows what things would've been like if the Space Program had continued at the same pace it did in the 1960s. So those are all good selling points.

If I mention, "How can that work?", that's just me figuring out things in my head. I think the show itself will probably be fine. It'll be interesting to see how this alternate history unfolds.

 

[Shawnster]

Never seen the show

Spock dying in the latest Star Trek movie is actually mentioned between 2 characters
The time period is +/- 1 year or so from the actual TWOK release date. I believe Ron Moore says in an interview the movie is TWOK

 

[1001001]

OT: For All Mankind is awesome.

 

[Orphalesion]

You can even see it in the names:

Decker and Riker are both "Will" (just one is Willard, and the other William)
And Ilia's and Troi's names both come from names for city from the Trojan War cycle, which was variously called Troy and Ilium (hence why the epic poem is the Iliad)
Even the species names for Ilia's and Troi's people both have Greek letters in them: Deltans and Betazopids

 

[cooleddie74]

No, Citiprime is 100% correct. Even the people associated with the franchise and Trek history acknowledge that Decker and Ilia became essentially the beta versions of Riker and Troi. They just recycled the Phase II/TMP concepts when TNG was being developed.

 

[Tallguy]

Never seen the show but, from what I understand, Phase II has its full run, and then TWOK comes out a year later. The movie comes out in 1983 instead of 1982.

Spock dying in the latest Star Trek movie is actually mentioned between 2 characters
The time period is +/- 1 year or so from the actual TWOK release date. I believe Ron Moore says in an interview the movie is TWOK

Good grief. That is next level nerdom.

 

[Lord Garth]

Good grief. That is next level nerdom.

Damn right!

 

[FormerLurker]

No, Citiprime is 100% correct. Even the people associated with the franchise and Trek history acknowledge that Decker and Ilia became essentially the beta versions of Riker and Troi. They just recycled the Phase II/TMP concepts when TNG was being developed.

I'll give hm 50% at best. Riker and Troi are based on Decker and Ilia, not the other way around.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I'll give hm 50% at best. Riker and Troi are based on Decker and Ilia, not the other way around.

That's exactly what Citiprime said.

 

[Commander Troi]

I haven't watched FAMK yet.

You really should see it. It's terrific!

Good grief. That is next level nerdom.

Not only that, one of the characters quotes TOS in an ep.

 

[BillJ]

I generally enjoyed Voyager’s take on the Borg.