10 Starship "Holy Grails"

[Ithekro]

There were Galaxy wings in some of Sisko's fleets, so I wonder if there were Ambassador wings in some of the early fleets that were savaged by the Dominion in the first months of the war. There were not that many Galaxy-class ships yet, and the Ambassador would likely fill a similar role.

 

[Macintosh]

There were Galaxy wings in some of Sisko's fleets, so I wonder if there were Ambassador wings in some of the early fleets that were savaged by the Dominion in the first months of the war. There were not that many Galaxy-class ships yet, and the Ambassador would likely fill a similar role.

We do hear of cruiser wings as well ("Cruiser and Galaxy wings, drop to half impulse"), and in "Yesterday's Enterprise" the Enterprise-C is explicitly identified as a cruiser ("but that cruiser was destroyed with all hands over twenty years ago"). So it's possible that while there were no specific Ambassador wings they were part of the cruiser wings along with other larger-than-Excelsior-but-sub-Galaxy ships, like the Nebula and Akira.

 

[137th Gebirg]

The last time we saw any Ambassadors on screen was DS9’s pilot showing the Battle of Wolf 359. I suspect it’s possible that this particular Borg incursion mandated a “Broken Arrow” scenario, directing all ships of any level of operational capability to converge on that spot - balls out and guns-a-blazing. My guess is that any surviving Ambassadors that could actually move were sent there and all either destroyed or damaged beyond repair. This would explain never seeing them again, along with some of the other wacky designs we saw that one time that appeared to be pre-Galaxy testbeds (Springfields, Challengers, Freedoms, etc.). There weren’t that many to begin with and were all just flat-out gone.

 

[Macintosh]

The last time we saw any Ambassadors on screen was DS9’s pilot showing the Battle of Wolf 359. [...] This would explain never seeing them again

Chronologically we see Ambassador-class ships twice on screen after the Battle of Wolf 359 – the USS Zhukov in "Data's Day", and the USS Excalibur in "Redemption II". The Zhukov is then namechecked in season six's "Aquiel", though it doesn't appear; so we have direct evidence on screen that the Ambassador-class was still in active service as of 2369.

Although never confirmed on-screen, the Star Trek Encyclopedia lists the USS Exeter NCC-26531 as an Ambassador-class ship. She was still active as of 2374 according to DS9: "You Are Cordially Invited", and was listed as suffering extensive casualties in the wardroom personnel status lists "In the Pale Moonlight", including her captain being killed in action; so we have circumstantial evidence of at least one Ambassador-class ship actually serving in the Dominion War.

along with some of the other wacky designs we saw that one time that appeared to be pre-Galaxy testbeds (Springfields, Challengers, Freedoms, etc.). There weren’t that many to begin with and were all just flat-out gone.

One of the most frustrating things about subsequent Trek series starting with DS9 is that we never get to see more of these pre-TNG era ships in favour of lots of ageing 23rd century designs. While with DS9 in particular this was down to production limitations more than a deliberate decision – no complete physical models of the Springfield, Challenger, Freedom, New Orleans etc were ever made, so including them would have been more costly and time consuming than relying on existing ship models and CGI assets – it'd be great to see more of them if DS9 ever does get the remastered treatment, especially as now have excellent CGI models of them. Lower Decks has no excuse. I kind of wish the Cerritos had turned out to be a New Orleans-class or a Freedom-class.

 

[Deks]

Perhaps, but there would be no reason to differentiate any ship in a fleet by its class. Furthermore, we saw a fleet at the end of VOY’s “Endgame” and they were all the same ships as what was used in the DS9 fleets (minus a Prometheus class.)

Eh, at the very least, VOY introduced the Prometheus class and stuck with it when the Borg sphere which carried VOY inside showed up - though the passage of time since we first saw the Prometheus and by the time VOY returned home was about 3 years... so, not a huge difference time-wise... meanwhile the time differential between 2385 and PIC S1 is 14 years... so, the Prometheus should still be in service (unless it somehow became 'obsolete').

As for the lack of Ambassadors, if they were still around (which they probably were), they were likely in active duties elsewhere.
The ship design could be more suited for performing various deep space ambassador duties (whatever those may be)?
Meaning, they were on those 5 year missions SF keeps talking about (but we sparsely get to actually see - I think), so its possible a lot of the deep space vessels SF has in operation would be older/upgraded classes of ships which we hardly saw, and others which were more prominent (like the Excelsior and possibly Miranda class ships) but were closer to home to answer the call to arms.

I guess that after the Dominion War, SF got a reason to kick start their fleet-wide upgrade cycle which turned into Sovereign-zation of older ships in the 2380-ies.

 

[Dukhat]

The four times we saw an Ambassador class ship on screen, what were they doing that was any different from any other ship?

Ent-C: Answering a distress signal from a Klingon colony.

Zhukov: Transporting a Vulcan VIP to the Enterprise.

Excalibur: Part of a tachyon grid with 16 other ships in Klingon space.

Yamaguchi: Part of an attack wing against the Borg at Wolf 359.


None of these examples precluded the Ambassador class ships from participating in any of the large fleet shots we saw in DS9 or VOY. There is also no canon proof that the class was built specifically for deep space duty, especially since the only four ships we did see were doing nothing of the sort.

 

[publiusr]

Defiant should have been made in larger numbers—a true counter to Jen Hadar craft and BoP.

I would call them Escorts…attached to large cargo vessels like remoras

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Defiant should have been made in larger numbers—a true counter to Jen Hadar craft and BoP.

I would call them Escorts…attached to large cargo vessels like remoras

In terms of a ships "Combat Classification", I classified the Defiant-class as a Corvette
The Protostar-class is what I would consider more of a Escort

 

[Macintosh]

Perhaps, but there would be no reason to differentiate any ship in a fleet by its class.

I did wonder about this. The only reason I can think of to separate out the Galaxy-class as their own wing is like having a "carrier wing" or a "destroyer wing" – that their role in the fleet is notably different from that of the other large starships. They don't seem to be specialised carriers in the Dominion War – we see very little fighter action – but they do seem from on-screen evidence to have an almost dreadnought role, being able to take heavy punishment while punching through enemy lines.

Defiant should have been made in larger numbers—a true counter to Jen Hadar craft and BoP.

I would call them Escorts…attached to large cargo vessels like remoras

According to Sisko, so does Starfleet ("Officially, it's classified as an escort vessel"). In modern naval parlance "destroyer" would also be appropriate, though this term is often confused with a battleship/dreadnought.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

larger-than-Excelsior-but-sub-Galaxy ships

If one accepts the differently sized rendering of the Excelsior-class, it could suggest that some of those ships also look like Excelsior-class ships, but that makes it porblematic to figure out the size of vessels based on that design.

There is also no canon proof that the class was built specifically for deep space duty,

With the reference to the Excelsior having a 3-year mission as shown in ST:6, and its very long secondary hull undercut, with apparently very little of the length of that being cargo space, it seems the Excelsior was not meant for the length of mission of the Enterprise. The larger saucer and longer area before the undercut of the Ambassador could could suggest it was made for deeper-space missions or longer missions than the Excelsior, but that would not make the Ambassador a deep-space explorer. (The Enterprise-B's secondary hull probably also reflects getting more equipment into an Excelsior-based design.) Being called Ambassador, it probably would function more as a vessel to support moving important individuals around, or showing might at situation that may become a battle, but have not yet.

 

[Macintosh]

If one accepts the differently sized rendering of the Excelsior-class...

I don't Nilo Rodis designed the Excelsior at a very specific 1,531 feet/467m for Star Trek III and that's the size I believe the Excelsior-class ships to be.

With the reference to the Excelsior having a 3-year mission as shown in ST:6, and its very long secondary hull undercut, with apparently very little of the length of that being cargo space, it seems the Excelsior was not meant for the length of mission of the Enterprise.

The original Excelsior has four times the volume of the Constitution refit. Cargo space is unlikely to be an issue, especially given the relatively modest cargo bay size the Constitution refit is shown to have in the movies. The Enterprise-B farings only add about 11% more volume, which is about the same as the TMP refit's size increase over the TOS Constitution.

Being called Ambassador, it probably would function more as a vessel to support moving important individuals around, or showing might at situation that may become a battle, but have not yet.

As an aside, the "Ambassador-class" name was originally considered for the Enterprise-D during the early stages of its design before the name "Galaxy-class" was dreamt up.

 

[Deks]

The four times we saw an Ambassador class ship on screen, what were they doing that was any different from any other ship?

Ent-C: Answering a distress signal from a Klingon colony.

Zhukov: Transporting a Vulcan VIP to the Enterprise.

Excalibur: Part of a tachyon grid with 16 other ships in Klingon space.

Yamaguchi: Part of an attack wing against the Borg at Wolf 359.


None of these examples precluded the Ambassador class ships from participating in any of the large fleet shots we saw in DS9 or VOY. There is also no canon proof that the class was built specifically for deep space duty, especially since the only four ships we did see were doing nothing of the sort.

Well, just because we hadn't seen the Ambassador class actively performing deep space assignments, it doesn't mean they were never relegated to such a duty. Given its overall design and size, it would be quite suitable for such tasks.

The likelihood is that majority were in fact probably doing deep space exploration while the few remained closer to home doing more 'mundane tasks' (I suspect the situation is similar with most classes of ships - but the very old classes dating back 80 odd years may have been pushed back to remain more localized - at least until SF did major refits and upgrades to them like they did with the Lakota, after which they would just send them back out).

Even the Galaxy class while designed for deep space exploration, the ENT-D itself wasn't seen doing much deep space exploring, was it?
It stayed relatively close to home, performed local relief, humanitarian missions, diplomacy, etc... but exploring seems to have been curtailed down for that ship so it was closer to UFP space (I guess its possible as the flagship of the Federation, SF felt it couldn't be too far from home, so they gave it an occasional small exploratory duties that didn't take too long) and mainly did other mundane tasks.

But we know other Galaxy class ships were out there, and some (if not most) of them were probably doing proper deep space exploration.

Its also possible that the instances we saw the Ambassador class in TNG, those particular vessels we saw happened to be at home undergoing upgrades/refits and crew rotation after multi-year missions and were scheduled to come back as planned.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

About the cargo capacity of the Excelsior-class, the MSD for the Enterprise-B shows that one deck of the secondary hull was largely dedicated to cargo bays with a cargo conveyor connecting the fore bays with the aft bays.

 

[Deks]

About the cargo capacity of the Excelsior-class, the MSD for the Enterprise-B shows that one deck of the secondary hull was largely dedicated to cargo bays with a cargo conveyor connecting the fore bays with the aft bays.

I would imagine that SF would also be using transporter pattern buffers or energy cells as storage.
Non-complex matter such as foods, vegetables, and various inorganic substances (including tools, etc.) could be stored in the pattern buffer almost indefinitely (but I guess its one of the reasons they have replicators - to create stuff they need when they need it - the only issue with this can be power requirements since replicators can be energy intensive - at least the energy to matter option - but this can be offset by the crew retrieving various materials or substances they find in asteroids and solar systems that they can just recycle into energy which can be stored and later used for replicating other things - maybe that's why UFP replicators are different - there is no direct need to have a raw matter storage tank anywhere on the shup, but rather a sufficiently large energy storage system that can store energy itself which could effectively hold massively more vs the actual storage capacity of a cargo bay - I suspect the power storage systems are integrated throughout the ship and could therefore outclass physical space if you store something as energy).

Plus, all of that matter is converted into a pattern which the computer holds on file... so, unless the pattern itself it damaged or degraded, you can make as many of that as you want.
Even in the case of a ship-wide power loss, the patterns of various matter are just digital data which is similar to a computer file that describes the molecular composition of the matter being stored.

So, something relatively 'common' SF would already have a pattern for it in its database, but for new stuff, new patterns would be created once the scanners or transporter systems have a clear read of it and then stored in the computer.

Like that, all you really need is small cargo space for potentially difficult to replicate items (hint, those that are very energy intensive to make), and for everything else, you use replicators which convert energy into matter.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

I don't Nilo Rodis designed the Excelsior at a very specific 1,531 feet/467m for Star Trek III and that's the size I believe the Excelsior-class ships to be.

About the cargo capacity of the Excelsior-class, the MSD for the Enterprise-B shows that one deck of the secondary hull was largely dedicated to cargo bays with a cargo conveyor connecting the fore bays with the aft bays.

In the movie era they don't have as capable replicators yet, (or any replicators?) and thus would need more cargo. The cargo space question is a matter of the proportion of cargo storage space to the size of the crew and the efficiency of the ship in using up resources. The data point of a 3-years mission suggests the Excelsior may have had shorter missions. If it was faster, that does not mean it was not going to deep space, just not for as long. All this applies to the movie-era though. By TNG, the Excelsior class might have a different purpose, or even crew size, than what was originally planned, so this is only data, not strong support for anything.

 

[Ithekro]

Excelsior's three-year mission cataloging gaseous anomalies in Beta Quadrant would seem to be more a "lets send our newest and largest starship to the Romulan and Klingon borders on an 'official' mission to remind them the Federation is still powerful". While also being Sulu's first known starship command. We assume he wasn't in command of some other starship prior to the Genesis Incident. We know he was up for being promoted and assigned Excelsior at that time, and was not serving on Enterprise aside from few weeks of the training cruise. Would you give Excelsior over to a new captain? Though I suppose the same can be said about the Enterprise-B?

 

[Markonian]

That makes we wonder if, in-universe, the Enterprise-B could've been offered to Sulu following his successful stint as Excelsior captain?

 

[Unicron]

Excelsior's three-year mission cataloging gaseous anomalies in Beta Quadrant would seem to be more a "lets send our newest and largest starship to the Romulan and Klingon borders on an 'official' mission to remind them the Federation is still powerful". While also being Sulu's first known starship command. We assume he wasn't in command of some other starship prior to the Genesis Incident. We know he was up for being promoted and assigned Excelsior at that time, and was not serving on Enterprise aside from few weeks of the training cruise. Would you give Excelsior over to a new captain? Though I suppose the same can be said about the Enterprise-B?

In the novelization of TSFS, Sulu was highly annoyed when Starfleet effectively grounded him and the other Enterprise crew after the battle with Khan, because they were trying to deal with the Genesis controversy and needed the input of those who had been there. Styles was apparently never intended to be the main captain of the Excelsior, and Sulu feared that if he sat back and did nothing (until the situation "blew over" in a few months or so, optimistically), then he'd never get the hard earned command that he was so eager to pursue. Once Styles got the center seat, he might never get it back. That was one of the reasons he ultimately decided to risk his career by helping Kirk get Spock back.

 

[137th Gebirg]

There was also the cut line from TWOK, which implied that he was already in command of Excelsior by that time.

To this day, Takei continues to insist that Shatner was responsible for the removal of this line, but I’m not so sure. The suits that have been behind some really boneheaded decisions of the franchise over the years have always been very concerned about how we fans have tiny little brains and are incapable of figuring things out on our own. Case in point, not ever using the E-F or any other Sovereigns during the DS9 Dominion War arc.

I’m thinking they came in there, read the script, said “what’s the Excelsior??”, believing that it might confuse us troglodyte fans and had the line removed. Is it a new ship? Is it another Connie? Whatever shall we do?!? So a relatively unimportant line for a relatively unimportant character was scrubbed for the “greater good” of the Final Cut, even though it resulted in a horribly edited scene that would have been better off being left alone.

I also feel they should have kept the Romulan-Saavik conversation scene between Kirk and Spock in the beginning. It would have added some cool backstory to a new character and it would have more easily rationalized her tears at the funeral, but that’s a whole different conversation…

 

[Unicron]

I agree, although I've always had mixed opinions over the idea of Saavik being half Romulan. I generally haven't felt like it added anything useful to her, but I do appreciate how tie-in sources like the novelizations and the FASA RPG fleshed it out a bit. YMMV of course.

It's rather strange that the TWOK novelization says Peter is only 14 as a cadet. And had a crush on her, no less.