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Voyager was the best spin-off for its first two seasons
- Thread starter Miltonic
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A moderator just asked us to stop. Might I suggest taking this discussion to the Miscellaneous forum? Or, if you want a forum where everyone will almost certainly agree with you, the Neutral Zone.
Then i don't watch entertainment if I found it disappointing.
I don't know what else to say except that there is more to this than just crap entertainment.
Unfortunately, being the show on a flagship channel of UPN would not allow such a feat. Voyager started out very promising, but became highly reptitive and didn't try to do new things with the characters as promised in a lot of the lead up promotional material.
I might sound down on Voyager, but when it was building up I had several TV Guides and magazine articles all about it, as well as bought several action figures. It struck me as something more interesting thatn TNG. Unfortunately, it didn't stay that way for me when it become closer to TNG, and the characters didn't hook me the way other shows did at the time.
DSP anti-Trek?
Not at all. As I see it now, it was the most interesting of all Star Trek series.
Due to stupid politics from one of my TV channels who cancelled the series after one season and due to problems to view it on some other channel plus DVD-problems on top of that, I didn't have the possibility to start watching the series until about 8-9 years ago. But when I finally managed to watch the whole series, I was pleasantly surprised.
I use to say that series like ENT, DSC and the NuTrek movies (and Picard later on) almost made me abandon Star Trek but DS9 helped me too keep the interest for it.
The problem is that in that case, I won't be able to watch entertainment at all.
Star Trek is at least acceptable in some areas and I still have TOS, TNG, DS9 and the first three seasons of Voyager plus some good books to read.
As for Voyager, I still like the characters and the premise for the series. The sad thing is that it could have been so much better with those characters and the premise for the series.
I think it was a mistake ti have Berman, Braga and Taylor as the people in charge. It could have been better with a new team full of inspiration and ideas.
20+ characters looks like a lot of people to count. Bu let's say that it would be the nine or ten "main characters" plus recurring characters as DS9 had, then I think that it would have worked.
I think that they should have given Kes and Neelix Starfleet uniforms since they forced such on the Maquis members.
Otherwise they could have had ther maquis members in special uniforms as a special team under Chakotay's command and Kes and Neelix in their ordinary clothes.
It's ok to not have entertainment.
But, Star Trek is not all. I have booms galore, especially newer ones, as well as various Treks I enjoy.
This is not a doom and gloom, all or nothing, proposition. It's the same as always in life: take the good with the bad. To quote some odd 60s show:
A man either lives life as it happens to him, meets it head-on, and licks it, or he turns his back on it and starts to wither away.
Yes please. If you want to discuss politics or other stuff feel free to take the off topic talk to the appropriate forum and link here. But let's get back to VOY.
Same. Neelix actually looked pretty good in Starfleet gold, and I think you were the one who created a nice shot of Kes in blue. Seven looked pretty hot in Starfleet blue as well.
By "Anti-Trek" I mean ->
There *were* occasional episodes that embodied the spirit of Star Trek (e.g., Past Tense), but the show downplayed exploration and diplomacy (classic Trek) in favor of capitalism (including shots at the Federation's post-scarcity ethos), religion and war...so much war. The Maquis have supporters in-universe and out (i.e., fans), Section 31 has supporters in-universe and out (i.e., fans who believe in that macho "rough men stand ready" garbage that justifies cloak-and-dagger crimes) and Gul Dukat has his share of fans who think he had legitimate points about Bajor. I can't see rebels mostly without a cause, a murderous secret organization as part of the good guys and a charismatic genocidal maniac meshing with Star Trek's ideals. Furthermore, the main characters commit their share of war crimes and there are fans who claim that one of said characters in particular is "a badass" (because war crimes are acceptable if our side commits them, right?). Then, there are little/petty things like digs at Vulcans meant to be a collective "Take that!" to classic Trek (seriously, how many positive Vulcan roles can you recall?).
DS9 was not anti-TREK. I think of all the spinoffs, it held the spirit of TOS the most.
I agree there wasn't much exploration in space, but that was in favor of more exploration within themselves and the societies near DS9. (Bajor and Cardassia, for example.)
TOS had a LOT of downer/cost of actions endings... "BALANCE OF TERROR", "THE ALTERNATIVE FACTOR", "THE PARADISE SYNDROME", "WINK OF AN EYE", and more. TOS also had scenes and episodes of levity/comedy to help balance things out. DS9 was excellent at keeping a balance of dark and light episodes throughout its run. (For example, the Dominion War seasons of 6-7 had quite a few light-hearted episodes in between the war... "YOU ARE CORDIALLY INVITED", "THE MAGNIFICENT FERENGI", "WHO MOURNS FOR MORN?", "HIS WAY", "TAKE ME OUT TO THE HOLOSUITE", "BADDA-BING, BADDA-BANG", etc.)
TOS did not have humans as 'evolved', like TNG. They were just people, sometimes letting their anger or worse half of themselves get them for a bit but still trying to be better. DS9 also had people who lived and tried to do better, but sometimes things got to them, too. But they still were trying for the better.
TOS showed us repeatedly that peace and good things come at a cost. DS9 did that as well.
And more reasons, but this post will just drag on and on.
So no, DEEP SPACE NINE is most certainly not anti-TREK.
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Nah, I'm not the only person who feels this way. Anyhow, I just don't want Voyager to be like Deep Dish Nine; people already take Janeway to task for her oftentimes unpredictable actions that seem to verge on tyranny...let's not add legitimate war crimes into the mix because folks are clamoring for dark "realism". They can have their godforsaken Section 31 show and cheer whenever they can point to Nouveau Federation as hypocritical.
P.S. The Ferengi cultural shift also counts as true Star Trek, but I do agree with the Odd man out that it happened way too fast and was a bit convenient.
P.S. The Ferengi cultural shift also counts as true Star Trek, but I do agree with the Odd man out that it happened way too fast and was a bit convenient.
Not add war crimes for Janeway... like making a deal with the Borg to create weapons of mass destruction against Species 8472 just to get to the Alpha Quadrant a little faster. Or destroying a chain of Omega particles, an act that completely cuts off that species from warp travel permanently. Or almost killed a Starfleet crewman as a method for getting information on Captain Ransom. Of course, these can never be added because these events didn't happen.
Oh, wait... they did.
Let's be real, Sisko had two actions that might qualify as a war crime... the planet in "FOR THE UNIFORM" and "IN THE PALE MOONLIGHT". With the former, it was the only way to stop Eddington from poisoning all Cardassian colonies in the DMZ (which he had already done to TWO planets), and it also allowed those Cardassians to get a home back... restoring a balance to the area. (A precarious balance, but still a balance.) Oh, and this was on top of Eddington attacking a Federation convoy, creating the biogenic weapons in the first place, and attacking and crippling TWO Starfleet ships. And that was all just in "FOR THE UNIFORM", never mind all the other terrorist actions the Maquis did before that point.
And the plan to bring the Romulans into the war... Starfleet approved of that plan. It was Garak that took those other steps that assured the Romulans would enter the war. Sisko was not a fan of his actions, but given the entire quadrant was at risk, it was something he could live with... a point that he had to remind himself at the end. 6 dead people (Vreenak, Tolan, and the 4 Romulan guards) in exchange to help save a quadrant of billions and billions? That's a bargain deal, as Garak rightly pointed out.
Both times, Sisko was serving a greater good. Two of the three times I mentioned for Janeway (Omega being the exception due to not only the directive, but for damaging Omega is) were selfish acts on Janeway's part that was not for a greater good.
Never done that, but I do support the idea of S31. Even if the Federation is the sunny utopia it's painted as (and I think it mostly is), the galaxy is not. There are enemies who don't play by the Federation's rules, so the Federation needs a group who plays by theirs. They're kind of like the Federation's
-hole: they stink and no one likes talking about them, but the body can't function without one.Indeed. It was effectively saying that if Susan B. Anthony had just gone down to Washington D.C. and seduced President Johnson, women would have gotten the right to vote in 1866.
I rather wither away than licks something I sincerely hate.
DS9 was definitely not "anti-Trek".
I find all of it a fascinating story with many unexpected twists and turns. OK, it did have some points of doom-and-gloom but there were always lighter episodes which did even it up.
It had great characters who actually developedmost of them very interesting and a great story telling.
TOS, TNG and the first three seasons of VOY were great too but didn't have the continuity and excitement that DS9 had.
Capitalism? OK, we had the Ferengi and Quark who questioned the Federations anti-capitalism but it was just an argument. in many episodes, the Ferengi were losers due to their greed and Quark did have his "attacks" of unexpected generosity from time to time.
Religion? Why not? The Bajorans were rather sympathetic, I think.
War? OK, ten Dominion war can't be described as "entertaining" as such but unfortunately we have had such things in the history of the "Gray Universe" and it could actually happpen in situations we saw in Star Trek too. In fact, we did ghave wars and hostility in TOS, TNG and VOY too. Not to mention that the "good guys" finally won in DS9 which not always happen in the "Gray Universe".
The Maquis? Well, I'm one of their supporters. I do have a certain fascination for resistance movements and The Maquis fought for the right cause.
Section 31? That's a little more difficult. They obviously did cross the line. But the truth is that such an organizaytion could be necessary in difficult time when it comes to face a genocidial opponent like the Dominion.
Dukat? Well, he was a bad guy but an interesting bad guy and good stories sometimes need bad guys.
As for the Vulcans, they do get little/petty digs in the other series as well, especially in TOS!
Positive Vulcan characters? Many of those in all series like Spock, Tuvok, Sarek, Saavik. The only one I find not so positive is Solok in the DS9 episode Take Me Out To The Holosuite who was very un-Vulcan in his arrogance and contempt against humans and Sisko in particular.
They all look good in Satrfleet uniform.
As for the picture of Kes in Starfleet blue, I didn't create it. I found it on the net.
But I did create this one of three favorites of mine:
Well, I like it. She even has a bit of maturity about her... this is Kes at 5 or 6, a doctor in her own right, and at the height of her knowledge and proficiency. It's the Kes we should have gotten, in other words.
Are those the only options?
'Cause I feel like this rather black and white.
Indeed. Starfleet is filled with dubious actors, and sometimes they are extremely focused on the needs of the many. If only they had some sort of catch phrase of that philosophy. Like needs of larger group mean more or something...
There we go. I modified an old wallpaper of mine and now they are all in uniform. In fact, we have two captains now: Captain Janeway and Captain Kes:
Postimages
No, it's not.
But in this case, it's the options you provided me with in the post I replied to.
I think that there is such a catchphrase:
SPOCK: The needs of the many ...outweigh
KIRK: ...the needs of the few.
Spock and Kirk in The Wrath Of Khan
Kes looks good in everything!
With respect, the entertainment choices seem limited at this point.
And so I'm stuck with Star Trek.
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