Poll Silliest death and immediate resurrection?

[F. King Daniel]

Both were pretty silly. But I'd say Kirk experienced character growth which his choice to sacrifice himself for his crew was the apex of. Picard had character growth in season one of his show, but the death and synth body thing felt very tacked on and irrelevant to the emotional growth he'd experienced.

What say TBBS?

 

[fireproof78]

I liked them both.

 

[The Wormhole]

They're both rather silly, but I suppose if I had to choose one, it would be Picard's given they went all in with that death. Emotional final moments, with a glimpse of him walking into the afterlife then dying. Then we get a scene with the rest of the characters gathering around and commiserating his loss and grieving his absence. And then the very next scene, Picard's back.

Indeed, a popular rumor is that when the series was originally planned as a one and done, the intent was that this was indeed Picard's one true permanent death, which they reversed when the decision was made to do more seasons. I can believe it.

Honorable mention to Data's death in the Picard S1 finale, who is revived just long enough to say he wants to die finally and permanently, and we get a big emotional scene to show just that. Then he comes back in the third season.

 

[Oddish]

What about all the others?
* Spock (ST II and III)
* Data (Times Arrow)
* Weyoun (Assorted DS9 episodes)
* Janeway ("Coda", others)
* Shaxx (No Small Parts)

Not counting Culber, because he did stay dead for awhile.

 

[1001001]

Picard becoming a robot was downright offensive. To the character and the fans.

And the fact that it was “handled” so casually made it all the worse.

 

[fireproof78]

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[Citiprime]

Kirk's death in Into Darkness.

• I don't like what the film does with the KIrk-Spock relationship at all. Keeping them distant and still not on the same page in the second movie undercuts Kirk's sacrifice at the end. Part of what sells Spock's sacrifice in The Wrath of Khan is the weight of Kirk's and Spock's relationship. We, as the audience believe that these two have been to hell and back and would do anything for each other. So when Kirk sacrifices himself for the ship in Into Darkness, Spock's "KHANNNNNNNN!!" scream and vengeance quest against Khan rings hollow, because both he and Kirk aren't really close, they aren't really friends, and spend most of the movie replaying their awkward, distant relationship from Star Trek (2009).
• If you're going to kill Kirk, leave him dead for the end of the film. Deal with the consequences of that decision. Make the characters react to it. But this movie can't even keep him dead for 30 minutes.
• And the way they bring Kirk back is such a plot cheat that no one involved thought about the implications of what it means for the greater universe. If Khan's blood is capable of reviving a dead tribble and deceased Kirk, they've effectively found the cure for death. And they have dozens of augment bodies to study and harvest in order to mass produce that cure. It cheapens Kirk's sacrifice.

Look at what Search for Spock does to "pay" for Spock's return. The original Enterprise is permanently destroyed, Kirk's son is murdered, and the crew are willing to sacrifice their careers and everything they have in order to follow Kirk on a quest just to retrieve Spock's body (i.e., when they steal the Enterprise, they don't even know it's possible that they can bring Spock back alive).

Picard becoming a robot was downright offensive. To the character and the fans.

And the fact that it was “handled” so casually made it all the worse.

The fact they are so insecure about it that they also immediately wall off any questioning about it. They reassure the audience that he's the same person, and that he's gonna still die and be just as human as the same Picard.

Where I think another show, if they were going to take that route, would have used Picard in robot form to question his existence. Whether Picard feels like the same person, is he capable of doing things "Old Picard" couldn't. Does Picard feel like an impostor and not like the "real" Picard?

But the show immediately shuts down those questions.

 

[fireproof78]

And the way they bring Kirk back is such a plot cheat that no one involved thought about the implications of what it means for the greater universe. If Khan's blood is capable of reviving a dead tribble and deceased Kirk, they've effectively found the cure for death. And they have dozens of augment bodies to study and harvest in order to mass produce that cure. It cheapens Kirk's sacrifice.

How?

Kirk was barely dead and the transporter does much more than that when it comes to death, so I never understood the whole "cheapens it" thing.

when they steal the Enterprise, they don't even know it's possible that they can bring Spock back alive).

Neither does Kirk in Into Darkness. Which is the whole point of the story. He gets to the same place as his dad and works to become more.

 

[Dukhat]

The Delta Flyer.

 

[Citiprime]

How?

It's lazy, bad writing. It's another plot contrivance that comes out of nowhere in a film (and Kelvin series) full of them.

Kirk was barely dead and the transporter does much more than that when it comes to death, so I never understood the whole "cheapens it" thing.

Just because one can point to other episodes where a piece of technobabble was used in a contrived way doesn't exactly make this good.

Neither does Kirk in Into Darkness. Which is the whole point of the story. He gets to the same place as his dad and works to become more.

My overall problem with the Kirk story arc in the Kelvin Universe is that I don't believe it should have taken 3 movies for him to become that person and want more. I didn't believe we needed 3 movies of Kirk doubting himself and spinning his wheels. After movie one, both Kirk and Spock know they have a destiny together aboard the Enterprise, and that also plays into Kirk taking the place of Spock in the sacrifice.

Spock's sacrifice in Wrath of Khan has the weight of Kirk's and Spock's relationship behind it. You feel that as an audience member in that moment. Kirk's sacrifice in Into Darkness doesn't have the resonance for me because of the above, but moreover it just felt like either JJ Abrams or the writers said at some point: "Well wouldn't it be cool to switch the characters in that moment?" But they didn't think about setting up the emotional reasons why it worked so well in the initial film.

 

[fireproof78]

It's a lazy, bad writing. It's another plot contrivance that comes out of nowhere in a film (and Kelvin series) full of them.

I love how people just say things and expect people to accept them. Khan not dying was not a plot contrivance in Space Seed. But it is now.

My overall problem with the Kirk story arc in the Kelvin Universe is that I don't believe it should have taken 3 movies for him to become that person and want more.

That's...irrelevant to the topic of conversation.

Kirk's sacrifice in Into Darkness doesn't have the resonance for me because of the above, but moreover it just felt like either JJ Abrams or the writers said at some point: "Well wouldn't it be cool to switch the characters in that moment?" But they didn't think about setting up the emotional reasons why it worked so well in the initial film.

It didn't resonate with me for the reasons in TWOK.

It resonated for the reasons from ST 09 and Into Darkness.

 

[David cgc]

Where I think another show, if they were going to take that route, would have used Picard in robot form to question his existence. Whether Picard feels like the same person, is he capable of doing things "Old Picard" couldn't. Does Picard feel like an impostor and not like the "real" Picard?

All of which was covered in an ongoing plot line in Agents of SHIELD, so you can, in fact, do that on television. But, you know, these are lean times, we can't expect thinky-thinky Star Trek to match the philosophical inquiry and character development of the MCU's least-acknowledged red-headed stepchild of a TV show.

 

[Citiprime]

I love how people just say things and expect people to accept them. Khan not dying was not a plot contrivance in Space Seed. But it is now.

Kirk barely survived a fist fight in "Space Seed," and had to use a pipe to subdue him. It's not like he pulled out a magic flotsam out of nowhere to win and spare Khan.

If you want me to justify my charge of lazy writing in the Kelvin Universe, fine. Here's just a few examples:

Star Trek (2009):

• Plot Contrivance: Why is Kirk ejected in an escape pod instead of being taken to the brig of the Enterprise? It doesn't make any sense. Like it just happens.
• Answer: It's necessary to move the plot forward. Because Kirk is ejected onto a barren planet. And what would you know it's the same planet that Nero left Spock. And what would you know it's within walking distance of where Spock is. And what would you know, Scotty is stationed on the planet too. And what would you know, Spock and Kirk are within walking distance of Scotty. And what would you know, Spock has transwarp beaming technology (that comes out of nowhere) which he has memorized to get them off of the planet and back to the Enterprise.

Star Trek Into Darkness:

• Plot Contrivance: Why was it necessary to load the 72 (augment) torpedoes on the Enterprise? If you're going to kill them anyway and shoot them at Khan to make a symbolic statement, why not kill them before you load them on the Enterprise and just shoot the bodies? Or use real torpedoes, start the war with the Klingons, and inform Khan some other way.
• Answer: It's necessary to move the plot forward, letting the Enterprise crew know what they're getting involved in, and have Alice Eve get naked. Beyond that, Marcus could have achieved the same ends by using real photon torpedoes, not raised suspicion, had his war, and sent the same "fuck you" to Khan. But because the story needs a stupid way to make the Enterprise crew aware that something is not right they do it this dumb, lazy way.

That's just a few of the ways the plot takes shortcuts to go from A to B. If we're being honest, Abrams wanted to make Star Trek action movies, and wasn't concerned about internal consistency when it came to warp drive (like the distance between Qo'Nos and Earth). So you get these lazy shortcuts.

 

[fireproof78]

That's just a few of the ways the plot takes shortcuts to go from A to B. If we're being honest, Abrams wanted to make Star Trek action movies, and wasn't concerned about internal consistency when it came to warp drive (like the distance between Qo'Nos and Earth). So you get these lazy shortcuts.

I mean...ENTERPRISE kind of already set him up there. I love how Abrams always gets the short end of the stick when he just expands upon what was already there.

Kirk barely survived a fist fight in "Space Seed," and had to use a pipe to subdue him.

Why was the pipe the thing? That never made sense to me either. That was stupid.

If you want me to justify my charge of lazy writing in the Kelvin Universe, fine. Here's just a few examples:

Your 09 one is fair.

The ID less so.

No, I don't find it "lazy writing." Nor does it address the core of my argument that Kirk's death still carries weight. Just not the same way as TWOK.

Nor should it.

 

[Tuskin38]

Picard becoming a robot was downright offensive. To the character and the fans.

I don't see how it's anymore offensive than a copy of Spock coming back in TSFS.

 

[Greg Cox]

Picard becoming a robot was downright offensive. To the character and the fans.

Some fans, perhaps. One should always think twice before presuming to speak for all of us.

There's no thing as "the fans." Just lots of different fans with varying views and expectations and priorities. We do not speak with one voice -- as this message board proves every day.

Personally, I wasn't offended. This kinda thing happens in sci-fi.

 

[1001001]

Some fans, perhaps. One should always think twice before presuming to speak for all of us.

There's no thing as "the fans." Just lots of different fans with varying views and expectations and priorities. We do not speak with one voice -- as this message board proves every day.

Personally, I wasn't offended. This kinda thing happens in sci-fi.

Fair enough.

I suspect I might not be the first poster here to use a little hyperbole to make a point…



Like @Citiprime said, I think the decision to do that was glossed over as we’re the philosophical ramifications. I’d like to think the Picard I knew would not have just said “oh well” over a cup of afternoon tea, but hey…that’s just me.

 

[Lord Garth]

Kirk brought back to life by Khan Blood is stupid.
Picard brought back to life in a sytho-organic body at least sounds sci-fi.

I also don't like Into Darkness, but do like Picard. So I won't say that has absolutely nothing to do with what I think...

 

[NCC-73515]

Kirk was barely dead, not dead yet, still had brain function.

 

[Oddish]

Kirk was barely dead, not dead yet, still had brain function.

Ha ha ha... had to do it, sorry.

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