Pirate DVDs and Torrent Downloads of Television Shows...

[TedShatner10]

No, no, no. No one is FORCING anyone. Consumers are CHOOSING to steal. Big difference.

It's a TV show, not food.

People are making a choice to do it, they are not forced, that's a ridiculous justification for theft.

And it IS theft regardless if it's available for purchase or not. It's not yours.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree that getting a television show on DVD is motivated by WANT instead of NEED, but at the same time the record labels and media studios are still shooting themselves in the foot, and hurting the consumers, by allowing their products to be so unnecessarily constrained by music copyright two decades out of date, losing money to piracy (even though they're paranoid about piracy). Most of the pople here who have illicit bootleg copies of television shows would still buy legitimate DVDs of the same said shows if they were published in the first place.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Honestly if you people want to break the law and steal something, fine. Just don't try to rationalize it. The posts in this thread advocating theft don't bother me, it's all the hypocritical self-justification. Corporations make a product you want to consume. They have the right to set the price for that product at whatever they please, or not release the product, for whatever reason they choose. It their decision and theirs alone.

The product is not yours to steal just because you feel like it, and if you do, you're a thief. And you'll probably get away with your theft because they can't go after everyone, so you've got nothing to worry about. But don't kid yourselves. It just makes you look weasly and dumb and like you're one of those contemptable bratty types who thinks the world owes you something just because you happened to be born. Have some self-respect and be an honest thief!

 

[Zod]

I guess the point is that it is theft, but the real issue is that it does not have to be if only they would change the out of date copyright laws to fit the 21st century. Many of the current laws were actually drafted in the era of the phonograph back in the earlier parts of the 20th century. That makes some of these laws almost 100 years old, at least here in the USA. Instead of making an effort to reform the out of date laws the media companies instead choose fight amongst themselves.

I have downloaded shows that I could not find on DVD, know its not legal and could give a damn whether its legal or not. When they change the laws so I can get what I "want" legally I will happily do so.

 

[TedShatner10]

Honestly if you people want to break the law and steal something, fine. Just don't try to rationalize it. The posts in this thread advocating theft don't bother me, it's all the hypocritical self-justification. Corporations make a product you want to consume.

Big business steals entertainment from us for BS reasons, so we steal it back through piracy, and hey the world goes round.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I guess the point is that it is theft, but the real issue is that it does not have to be if only they would change the out of date copyright laws to fit the 21st century.

Change the laws so the illegal activity is no longer illegal?

There are a lot of pot smokers nodding their heads.

It's not your fault you are break the law, it's the laws fault. Sure.

Big business steals entertainment from us for BS reasons, so we steal it back through piracy, and hey the world goes round.

Wait. What? How does big business "steal" entertainment from you? Big Business didn't come to your house and steal music or videos out of your library.

They create material. It's their material. They can choose to put it on the market or not.

And yeah, sometimes the contracts they made with another party, to use music, binds them so they can't put it out on DVD without paying for it again. (Oh, Noes! Will we ever see Dark Skies on DVD? ) And paying for it again might just make it not cost effective to release as a product (again, how many millions are clamoring for Dark Skies on DVD? Not so many.)

Justify your stealing all you want, but it's YOUR choice, YOUR responsibility, and to say the Entertainment Industry is "stealing" from you is a ridiculous charge. They can't steal what is THEIRS.

It's the silly fanboy outrage..."They OWE me!"

It's a business. They spend money to create a product, you pay for it. If they don't want to spend the money, because there aren't enough fanboys to buy to cover the costs, then they aren't going to make the product.

So, again, steal, pirate all you want, but really, again, it's YOU making that choice.

 

[Sheep]

Change the laws so the illegal activity is no longer illegal?

There are a lot of pot smokers nodding their heads.

It's not your fault you are break the law, it's the laws fault. Sure.

Get over yourself. Laws can be changed to fit the needs of society. I suppose in your head, women should never have been allowed to vote, black people should still count as 3/5 of a person, no one should be allowed to drink alcohol and it's completely illegal to drive faster than 55.

 

[Pingfah]

Change the laws so the illegal activity is no longer illegal?

There are a lot of pot smokers nodding their heads.

It's not your fault you are break the law, it's the laws fault. Sure.

Get over yourself. Laws can be changed to fit the needs of society. I suppose in your head, women should never have been allowed to vote, black people should still count as 3/5 of a person, no one should be allowed to drink alcohol and it's completely illegal to drive faster than 55.

You're telling HIM to get over himself?

You just accused him of being a sexist, racist, dictatorial spoilsport because he was calling somebody on claiming that something is only illegal because there is a law against it

You overreacted and missed his point simultaneously.

 

[Sheep]

Change the laws so the illegal activity is no longer illegal?

There are a lot of pot smokers nodding their heads.

It's not your fault you are break the law, it's the laws fault. Sure.

Get over yourself. Laws can be changed to fit the needs of society. I suppose in your head, women should never have been allowed to vote, black people should still count as 3/5 of a person, no one should be allowed to drink alcohol and it's completely illegal to drive faster than 55.

You're telling HIM to get over himself?

You just accused him of being a sexist, racist, dictatorial spoilsport because he was calling somebody on claiming that something is only illegal because there is a law against it

You overreacted and missed his point simultaneously.

Those examples were just the first things that popped into my head as to laws that were once in the books that have been changed according to the needs/wants of society.

Reading his quote above, it sounds like he's about 8 years old and thinks "the law" supercedes all else and is absolutely immutable.

 

[Pingfah]

Well, you might try using relevant examples, such as the way that property rights have been altered over the years to favour industry over individuals rather than throwing contentious topics like slavery about before you go accusing other people of acting immaturely.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Get over yourself. Laws can be changed to fit the needs of society. I suppose in your head, women should never have been allowed to vote, black people should still count as 3/5 of a person, no one should be allowed to drink alcohol and it's completely illegal to drive faster than 55.

You're telling HIM to get over himself?

You just accused him of being a sexist, racist, dictatorial spoilsport because he was calling somebody on claiming that something is only illegal because there is a law against it

You overreacted and missed his point simultaneously.

Those examples were just the first things that popped into my head as to laws that were once in the books that have been changed according to the needs/wants of society.

Reading his quote above, it sounds like he's about 8 years old and thinks "the law" supercedes all else and is absolutely immutable.

*sigh* No. I don't think laws are immutable. I also don't think comparing abortion and illegal downloading are really the same thing. (It's like a half-Godwin, right?)

If you don't like the laws, get the laws changed.
Breaking them is breaking them, not changing them.

When I was 8 years old, my mother taught me that taking what was not yours is stealing, and stealing is wrong.

 

[Sheep]

If it's a product that is currently available, I agree 100% that copying/downloading it is illegal.

However, there IS a gray area which you refuse to acknowledge, the topic of this thread--that of long-lost or less popular TV shows or to provide a second example, abandonware (computer software no longer sold in any retail channels) that fans distribute among themselves.

The vast majority of these things aren't even in consideration to be made available to the public in any form; they've basically been forgotten by their owners who either no longer exist or think there's no money to be made because there's not enough of an audience.

Quite honestly, I don't lump someone who downloads the entire run of Star Trek (a commercially available DVD set) into the same category as someone who downloads episodes of Manimal using Bittorrent. You see the latter as black and white, while I'd call it a shade of gray.

 

[Pingfah]

THat's NOT a grey area. Somebody still owns the rights to those TV shows regardless of whether they are considering releasing them.

This still comes back to you expecting some sort of "right" to access these things, no such right exists.

I DL shows myself, its illegal, I have no right to. I do it anyway because I'm not that morally centred. I don't think I am in the right though

 

[trekkiedane]

Have some self-respect and be an honest thief!

Right!

Big business steals entertainment from us for BS reasons, so we steal it back through piracy, and hey the world goes round.

As I see it, once a TV-show has been on the air EVERYONE (for whom it was made) has seen (and recorded) it therefore it is then (once it has been aired) public access! -If you weren't home that day you probably had either a machine or a friend record it for you -why does it become illegal if that friend (or machine) happens to be in a different part of the world as yourself?

What I mean is: once the show/episode has been paid for (the advertisements have been seen) you should not expect to be paid any more for that very same thing! -unless, of course, you plan on fans paying for the right to watch the very same thing again -which they'll gladly do actually.

------

Edit:
Your plumber doesn't get paid every time you flush, why should a tv channel???

 

[Professor Zoom]

Generally, the first run of a TV show doesn't actually pay for itself.
Repeats and DVD sales are what makes a show profitable.

 

[trekkiedane]

Generally, the first run of a TV show doesn't actually pay for itself.
Repeats and DVD sales are what makes a show profitable.

Which just makes it even more difficult to understand why shows aren't released on dvd's -or still considered of limits even if they had their first run in the (19) 70's!

 

[Professor Zoom]

Because it costs money to produce, market DVDs.

And in some cases it would also cost money to license songs to be used in shows, like in WKRP in Cincinatti, as the contract to use them probably didn't include DVD use.

Not ALL shows put out on DVD make money...in fact, shows with multiple seasons have severe drop offs of sales after the first season or two is released, especially if it's an old show.

These companies are interested in MAKING money, not losing it.

Now...when the DVD format goes away...and let's face it's going to in the next 10 years...and it's all on the internet, I bet a LOT more shows will become available, no cost to duplicate, no cost of getting it into stores, etc.

 

[trekkiedane]

Because it costs money to produce, market DVDs.

Now that explains why there is no such thing as a dvd to be bought anywhere!

And in some cases it would also cost money to license songs to be used in shows, like in WKRP in Cincinatti, as the contract to use them probably didn't include DVD use.

true, and a big problem when it comes to putting shows out; other corporations trying to stop it, this time the boogey-man is the record label not wanting to sell their stuff…
Same problem!

Not ALL shows put out on DVD make money...in fact, shows with multiple seasons have severe drop offs of sales after the first season or two is released, especially if it's an old show.

These companies are interested in MAKING money, not losing it.

And the problem solves itself: if there is no money to be made from the product any more, why not just let those (apparently extremely few) people watch it?

 

[Ghel]

So it seems that the real question to ask is whether or not intellectual property (especially old intellectual property) is really property at all.

Eg. The Shoplifting analogy (burning a DVD = shoplifting)
I go back an forth on this one. Here is another analogy. --I am a great wood carver. I go to a store and purchase one kitchen chair. I take it apart in my garage and using my woodworking skills and tools, I make five more chairs that look similar.
Later that day, the store sues me for "shoplifting" because I theoretically could have bought more chairs from them.
I have taken nothing from them, but rather, they are estimating what I might have spent, had I paid retail for six chairs. Did I shoplift???--

The Potential profit argument--
The RIAA loves to point to their estimates of what they might have earned if file sharing didn't exist. So I truly ask those who burned music or DVDs for personal use at some point in their lives (and as an abstract). . . For each DVD or CD you owned, would you or could you afford to buy all of them? Row close are the estimates to the real number of CDs that may have been purchased at $20 a pop.

What about the moral ramifications of buying used movies or CDs. No content creators gain a profit off of these goods. . .

I bring these thoughts up not because I am going to run out and burn CDs per se, but because I have been writing a story about a future in which nanotechnology construction/destruction creates a world in which all physical products become "intellectual property" and a world in which, if you do not renew the license on your kitchen table, it will dissolve after a period of time. This got me thinking. . . if physical property worked like intellectual property, how would the world fundamentally change. . .?

 

[Cutter John]

I've also been known to download anime. Forgive me if I'm not wracked with guilt because I want to watch a show that hasn't been butchered and dumbed down by a US studio.

 

[Zod]

Change the laws so the illegal activity is no longer illegal?

There are a lot of pot smokers nodding their heads.

It's not your fault you are break the law, it's the laws fault. Sure.

Huh? Thats some comparison to make. Copyright law vs drug laws??? In another post you mentioned that if we don't like the law it should be changed, and thats what I advocate. There is nothing wrong with updating the antiquated rules. I know something of these rules as I have worked with them to a small extent, some were drafted almost a century ago and some even earlier. Many people who know something about how these rules work would like them changed. They could never anticipate the world we live in today back then and even a cursory glance at the congressional record from the time would provide humorous reading. The industry of today though, where the movers and shakers reside, are seemingly always behind the curve. They spend so much time worrying about impact and over analyze the impact to the point where nothing gets changed. These guys have the lobbyists though on the payroll, not the copyright attorneys and general advocates of change. Many of the attorney's would welcome changes in the rules that stifle innovation, but this is another topic.

BTW: Some of those pot smokers you speak of are smoking their pot legally according to state law, though the feds with disagree so no issue is cut and dry not pot smoking, not copyright. In any event we are spinning wheels here and could go around and around forever. I don't expect to change your mind and your certainly not going to sway mine either.