Poll Is the Earth on the border of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants? (Yes/No)

[C.E. Evans]

It may be arbitrary, but it seems to be a well-adopted arbitrary decision that every other alien culture seems to buy into. The definition of what distance constitutes a meter, an inch, or a mile were arbitrary choices too, but they only became useful and relevant when the masses adopted and bought into those definitions too. It doesn't make sense that every culture has their own map that defines the contours of regions of space. There would have to be **some** standardization between powers so they would know what each other were talking about and the significance of certain places and lines.

I really think that's where the Universal Translator comes in. Various members of the Federation and beyond very likely have their own measurement systems and terminologies, but the UT converts them into Human terms for both us the viewers and onscreen English-speaking characters. For example, the Vulcans, Andorians, and the Tellarites may all have their own designations for the Alpha Quadrant and Sector 001, but we hear them as such via the UT.

You can't have a neutral zone if the Klingons and Romulans don't at least accept at least the concept of how the Federation's divides borders. And at no point during DS9, is there any indication that any of the major powers doesn't buy into the division of the galaxy into quadrants, even the Dominion doesn't object to the idea of the Federation's division of the Alpha and Gamma Quadrant. Even the Borg accept the division of being in the Delta Quadrant when discussing Voyager in private.

Borders in space are really no different than borders on land, IMO. They're both simply lines drawn on a map by a consensus of people and are often more politically-based than geographical. As said earlier, various civilizations likely have their own way of dividing up the Galaxy, but everything is translated into terms we can understand. I don't think the Borg really call the Delta Quadrant that at all, but it comes out that way to us in the UT.

It just seems odd that in a Federation based on mutual cooperation and diversity that basically every other alien species said just let the humans go crazy and we'll accept their definitions about borders, maps, and customs. But it's one of those things you just have to go with. English (aka Federation Standard) is the defacto official language of an interstellar culture with hundreds of species. Starfleet, an organization with members from various cultures, it is still very human-centric with their vessels named mostly for human historical figures, battles, and the legacy vessels of human navies.

It may have been that when the Federation was initially coming together that Humans were thought of as a neutral party that the otherwise disparate members could agree on (the Andorians may have objected to Vulcan definitions and the Tellarites may have objected to both Vulcan and Andorian definitions). And if Humans were the original driving force behind the formation of the Federation, it really isn't that odd that both it and Starfleet are so Earth-centric, IMO. Outside of Federation and Starfleet business circles, though, the various member worlds may maintain their own individual customs, idioms, etc., and in that capacity, regard the Federation the same way we regard the United Nations, except with a unified space force.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

I just don't click on the topic. That's my "who cares".

Cool.

 

[Parallaxis]

Nothing in any TNG era script remotely suggest that Earth is in the Beta Quadrant 50% of the time. In fact, every line of dialog in Voyager seems to directly contradict that. Voyager directly refers to Human, Romulans, and Klingons as being Alpha Quadrant inhabitants. It's directly implied that Earth and those species are the core of the Alpha Quadrant.

So I don't see how you're going to embrace a map with Earth on the Alpha/Beta border unless you're prepared to de-canonize half of Voyager.

(And before anyone is like "yay! Half of VOY is gone," I'll reminder you that Threshold would probably end up staying, but all the Pathfinder stuff wouldn't. So you just traded Barclay for Tom Lizardman. Congratulations, you monsters!)

 

[The Wormhole]

Nothing in any TNG era script remotely suggest that Earth is in the Beta Quadrant 50% of the time. In fact, every line of dialog in Voyager seems to directly contradict that. Voyager directly refers to Human, Romulans, and Klingons as being Alpha Quadrant inhabitants. It's directly implied that Earth and those species are the core of the Alpha Quadrant.

The DS9 writers addressed this when someone asked them why the Dominion War was about "the fate of the Alpha Quadrant" when the Klingons and Romulans are actually from the Beta Quadrant. They said they just refer to the Alpha Quadrant all the time for narrative convenience, and it's easier to type out in a script repeatedly than "Alpha and Beta Quadrants." Though a case could be made that if the Alpha Quadrant fell to the Dominion, the Beta would soon follow.

Presumably, it was for similar reasons the Voyager writers kept saying Alpha Quadrant all the time. Though really, the question we should be asking about Voyager is why they continued claiming to be in the Delta Quadrant for the entire series. Based on the figures given every time they made one of their major jumps that takes so many years off their journey, then they should have been in the Beta Quadrant by the sixth season. Yet they continue to claim to be in the Delta Quadrant throughout the sixth and seventh seasons.

 

[Timofnine]

Voyager directly refers to Human, Romulans, and Klingons as being Alpha Quadrant inhabitants. It's directly implied that Earth and those species are the core of the Alpha Quadrant.

Interesting. Can you quote any examples of this? I cannot remember any…

So you just traded Barclay for Tom Lizardman. Congratulations, you monsters!)

Cooooool!!

 

[Parallaxis]

Interesting. Can you quote any examples of this? I cannot remember any…

Are you kidding? See: every other episode.

The DS9 writers addressed this when someone asked them why the Dominion War was about "the fate of the Alpha Quadrant" when the Klingons and Romulans are actually from the Beta Quadrant. They said they just refer to the Alpha Quadrant all the time for narrative convenience, and it's easier to type out in a script repeatedly than "Alpha and Beta Quadrants."

Well they should have written better dialog, because that's not what they wrote into canon.

 

[Timofnine]

Are you kidding? See: every other episode.

But I cannot recall any specific examples of what you have said? I have never heard anyone on Voyager say that the Klingons or Romulans are actually from the Alpha Quadrant. In fact, I go off the species placements as explained during the Dominion War on Deep Space Nine and other onscreen maps from the various series.

Do you remember a Voyager episode called Eye of the Needle where Voyager communicates with a Romulan ship through a small wormhole? The cargo ship which Voyager contacted *was* in the Alpha Quadrant, but this does not mean that the Romulan Empire is based in the Alpha Quadrant. I assumed that the cargo ship was on an agreed trade mission travelling in unaligned Alpha Quadrant space, though I do admit that it would have made more sense inverse for the wormhole exit point to have been in the Beta Quadrant, though this would have been less ‘effective’ from a storyline point of view seeing as Voyager was attempting to reach home in the Alpha Quadrant *not* the Beta.

Also, in the episode Message in a Bottle, The Doctor was transferred to the Prometheus in the Alpha Quadrant. Again, Romulans are encountered but this does not mean that the Romulan Star Empire extended in to the Alpha Quadrant. This episode could have taken place on the edge of Federation space or other unclaimed Alpha Quadrant expanses, though it is possible that this specific incident *was* an incursion in to Federation space in order to steal the new Prometheus.

 

[Finn]

Here's my obligatory "Depends on the Plot" post

Are you kidding? See: every other episode.


Well they should have written better dialog, because that's not what they wrote into canon.

Hello.

Like in the real world, it should be safe to assume that the characters of the Trek Universe can be loose with certain terms when applying to a group of individuals, races,etc. (no, it wouldn't be unprofessional for trained Starfleet officers to do such things. RL military folks do it too, even on the clock)

What we see/hear shouldn't be etched into stone regarding what they mean,etc.

 

[The Wormhole]

Well they should have written better dialog, because that's not what they wrote into canon.

Or maybe dialogue should not always be interpreted so literally?

 

[at Quark's]

Nothing in any TNG era script remotely suggest that Earth is in the Beta Quadrant 50% of the time. In fact, every line of dialog in Voyager seems to directly contradict that. Voyager directly refers to Human, Romulans, and Klingons as being Alpha Quadrant inhabitants. It's directly implied that Earth and those species are the core of the Alpha Quadrant.

So I don't see how you're going to embrace a map with Earth on the Alpha/Beta border unless you're prepared to de-canonize half of Voyager.

(And before anyone is like "yay! Half of VOY is gone," I'll reminder you that Threshold would probably end up staying, but all the Pathfinder stuff wouldn't. So you just traded Barclay for Tom Lizardman. Congratulations, you monsters!)

Wouldn't that be a bit similar to how they often talked about returning to Earth, as if that were the only planet worth returning to, rather than 'correctly' mentioning all the places the members of the crew watned to return to? (Earth, Vulcan, Bolia, Bajor, and what other slew of planets/colonies there might be where crew members were from).

 

[publiusr]

The Artificially Declared "Virtual Border-Line" runs directly through the center of mass of our sun "Sol's" slight wobble

the barycenter
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliocentric_orbit#/media/File:Solar_system_barycenter.svg

The Actual size of our Milky Way Galaxy is FAR larger than you think once you factor the actual size of all the major structures of the Milky Way Galaxy.

Spoiler: Remember our Galaxy is a relative reference to all other nearby Galaxies.

In a void
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_Void

The local 'In-Galaxy' "Virtual Reference Plane" is seperate from any "Virtual Reference Plane" once you span out to the scale of comparing nearby Galaxies.

Looks like we slimmed down
https://www.universetoday.com/163448/the-milky-ways-mass-is-much-lower-than-we-thought/

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Looks like we slimmed down
https://www.universetoday.com/163448/the-milky-ways-mass-is-much-lower-than-we-thought/

It's a estimation based on a formula, we'll probably have far more accurate data once we get into the Trek 24th century.

 

[Lord Garth]

I vote "No". To have it at the center is Earth-centrism at its worst.

One thing I really like about the 32nd Century is that Earth wasn't part of it (until the very end of DSC Season 4) and the Federation has resituated itself beyond Earth. Even after Earth has rejoined the Federation, it shouldn't be the same as it was before. Hopefully we'll see that in Season 5, since I assume Admiral Vance and President Rillak will still be in a Starfleet Command that's far away from Earth.

 

[Imaus]

Why? It happens in real life, too. The longitude system that is used by the entire world (AFAIK at least) is based on a fairly arbitrary null meridian that happened (*) to run right through Greenwich observatory, probably because some 18th or 19th century geographers simply chose that line as the 'null meridian' . So half of the Greenwich observatory (or parts of London, for that sake) would have been on the eastern hemisphere, and the other half (parts) on the western hemisphere by definition and nobody was bothered by that - and why would they be? It's just an arbitrary reference line for a coordinate system, after all, nothing more. Why couldn't the same happen for the border line between Alpha and Beta quadrant?

(*) of course, in modern times, a slight recalibration has taken place based on more considerations and more exact instruments, but in practice, the new 'null meridian' is still very close to the old 'Greenwich meridian' and clearly its direct descendant.

There was a contender with Paris, but that failed...

I vote yes. To the average person, even in 200 or 1000 years, the Earth and Sun hasn't moved far enough for this to be a concern. For computers, they have auto-updating and calculating power anyway to deal with it for astrogation.

Earth founded the Federation. Earth hammered out the big issues between the big local powers, Earth fought off the Romulans, Earth formed the Coalition of Planets and then the UFP, Earth was the capital. Humans are new and upcoming, they're helpful, they're fresh, they got to hammer out the minutae and standards. Nothing's wrong with that.

 

[at Quark's]

^ Yes.

I still wonder though why the humans are so important in the Federation, and how they got those amazing feats and such a big role to play. They're a relatively new species on the interstellar block; not too long before they still whacking each others heads.

But that's an equally great mystery as the mystery to how humanity got 'better' than we are today. Somehow I don't believe that meeting 'aliens' or even WW3 magically did the trick

 

[Citiprime]

Enterprise explains that.

All of the regional powers either had been at war with each other, or basically existed in a state of Cold War. Humanity was the only faction trusted by all sides, and became the glue that pulled everyone together to form the Federation.

Also, the name “Earth-Romulan War” implies that Starfleet took the lead in fighting off the Romulan incursions. Therefore, Earth’s importance in both providing defense and leadership probably gave it much influence in setting policy when coming up with and implementing the Federation.

 

[at Quark's]

Now that you mention it, I remember that one. I simply have a hard time believing it. Why would all hostile powers that had been in a political stalemate for centuries, over the course of a few short years start trusting an upstart, trouble-stirring species to that extent, and even give them a leading role in their future alliance? Moreover, why wouldn't that dominance have changed /shifted even by the 24th century?

I mean, I'll take it as an explanation for want of a better one, but I still don't think it's particularly plausible.

But OK, this is getting off topic, perhaps it would be better to discuss this in another thread.

 

[Citiprime]

Of the founding members:

• The Vulcan High Command collapses with Starfleet being directly responsible for helping the Syranite faction that replaces it.
• The Andorians, especially Shran, become trusted allies after humanity shows its fairness and willingness to do what’s right, even if it causes tensions with the Vulcans.
• The Tellarites witness firsthand the threat from the Romulans, as well as Archer and Starfleet’s ability to bring together all sides to confront it.

 

[BK613]

"Humans build communities where ever they go. It's their greatest strength and what makes them the most dangerous." - Delenn of the Mimbari, paraphrased

 

[Lord Garth]

Enterprise explains that.

Enterprise. That says it all to me, but anyway, I won't take the easy way out and I'll continue on.

All of the regional powers either had been at war with each other, or basically existed in a state of Cold War. Humanity was the only faction trusted by all sides, and became the glue that pulled everyone together to form the Federation.

Also, the name “Earth-Romulan War” implies that Starfleet took the lead in fighting off the Romulan incursions. Therefore, Earth’s importance in both providing defense and leadership probably gave it much influence in setting policy when coming up with and implementing the Federation.

Earth, Vulcan, Andor, and Taler don't make up the entire galaxy. I'm sure the Cardassians and the Klingons didn't give a shit about all four of those powers fighting the Romulans. After the Romulan War, when the Federation is actually founded maybe, but not during, when it looks like four separate powers that could go their own way at any point. Even after the Federation is founded, it's an upstart, and those outside of it wouldn't agree to changing how the Galaxy is mapped out to accommodate them.

It works better if there was some type of galactic agreement long before Earth or any of those other powers came into the interstellar picture, but it would be something they all went by anyway as they all became spacefaring. Because if you're dealing with aliens in space, you have to use the most common lingo so everyone has a common frame-of-reference. The 22nd Century isn't "early days" for everyone else, it's only "early days" for Earth and the Federation.

Or, on the other end, everyone could've had their own definition of a quadrant, until all the established galactic powers agree to a standardized system after the TOS Movies but before TNG. By this point, the Federation isn't some scrappy upstart, and it's dealing with a lot more of the galaxy.

EDITED TO ADD: Anyway, over and over again, on DS9, Sisko and other characters talk about how they're in the Alpha Quadrant. All throughout VOY, they're talking about how to get back to the Alpha Quadrant. If Earth was in at the Alpha/Beta Quadrant Boarder, they'd be talking about the Alpha and Beta Quadrants. In TNG, DS9, and VOY, whenever the Beta Quadrant is referred to, it's deep space that's far away but, unlike the Gamma Quadrant and Delta Quadrant, is still within reach.

If we're talking about TNG/DS9/VOY, I don't go by what was said in TOS or the TOS Movies, when "quadrants" were referred to very differently, and didn't mean what they'd mean later. That includes TUC. I think Leonard Nimoy and Nick Meyer misused the system that was set up in TNG. Neither of them was really that familiar with TNG beyond the fact that it existed, they extrapolated what they heard from whoever they asked about it, and the TNG/DS9/VOY writers ended up doing something else.

Then comes Manny Coto who thinks, "But I have to explain this!" No, Manny, no you don't. This is one of the things I don't like about prequels, especially when they're done badly. And, it has to mentioned, Manny Coto was a conservative. Some of those world views of his had to have seeped into his writing. The Federation is an analogue for America so, of course, everything has to revolve around the Federation, with Earth being right at the center of it.