Last Classic Who Story you watched

[jaime]

Fair point.



Seconded. As much as the show did become "Ace Who" and the detractors of the time had a point, Ace wasn't done as overblown as more modern companions.

The "doing a lot with very little" definitely rings true and only good writing and acting can sell it.

"Father's Day" had some great ideas but they felt like they were put to the side just to wring more tears out of the audience just so the episode can make into one of those articles saying "which story made you cry the hardest". The reaper things can't get beyond old things, but swallowed the far older Doctor... and for a race of temporal beings that protect the timeline by stopping influencing elements, insufferable Rose was the one trying to change things but they did sod all with her. Zero substance at all, and from a story with more potential in that season than most. And unlike Adam, she's not unceremoniously ditched - but before I digress...

"White kids" has been argued for decades*, it's a line that has actually improved over time. Never understood the detractors.

* decades it's been now ​

Yeah, "Survival" has held up very well indeed. We do see Ace's family. And the show dared to not be lazy by using generic stick figures, but actual personalities - even atypical ones, by making them interesting.



True. I'm tempted to rewatch TPOTD again, just for those nostalgiabate bits. So much of the story is a bundle of missed opportunities and motivations, instead they faff about with dumb songs -- good choice of music aside, of course. Then again, before Milli Vanilli there apparently was Boney M...

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But that won't stop me from enjoying the song for what it simply is.

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The song is fairly accurate for the history lesson as well, interestingly enough. Might be another reason of many as to why Chibnall wanted to find a way to squeeze it in. His take on historical figures is a definite positive for the show, which is why his underuse of the Master as Rasputin was a minor disappointment...

The rest of the story, however... Cyber timelords given token treatment, why the Master impersonating Rasputin is a cool idea but without any depth... the critter that kills the Doctor was using its beam to slice up a planet, yet she's not diced up by the same effing beam... modern Who has a worse track record in this regard and it's odd.



Or the modern show is telling audiences that anyone and everyone can be a Jedi**. I dunno. The companions with actual backgrounds or individual nuances have always been more interesting than average cookie cutter teenagers using their sex buddies for free food then ditching them over the smallest extraterrestrial threat for which the power of script magic let her stay. The less said about series 1 the better, especially with how Mickey was treated in the scripts. Series 2, however, is why Mickey is one of the more refreshing companions from the modern era. The series 2 finale does overcompensate with "Super Mickey" and all he lacks is a cape, but it's a minor nitpick given his arc of realization and building self-confidence (which was an awesome surprise, as series 1 was a real downer...)

** that doesn't stop me from enjoying 85% of the rest of "The Last Jedi", however

There was an argument over the ‘White kids’ line?
Bizarre. Must have passed me by luckily.
What was the issue people had?
I am annoyed people these days don’t see the forest for the trees over the slur in Battlefield though (it’s serving a very very important point both in the story and the subtext) so I suppose anything is possible.

 

[Qonundrum]

There was an argument over the ‘White kids’ line?
Bizarre. Must have passed me by luckily.
What was the issue people had?
I am annoyed people these days don’t see the forest for the trees over the slur in Battlefield though (it’s serving a very very important point both in the story and the subtext) so I suppose anything is possible.

Both dialogue that seemed "awkward" at the time and Sophie Aldred's delivery. Personally, it's a multi-layered poignant moment that flew over the heads of the detractors with more fervor than a dozen Canada geese flying overhead in spring (not to mention all the byproducts dropping out of them as well.)

Morgaine was manipulating Ace and Shou Yuing for her personal gain (claiming the Excalibur sword after her trickery gets them both out of the protection of the circle.) Whether Ace had her own racist undercurrents or if Morgaine was planting nasty things designed to get Shou angry, there are a few possibilities in the scene. Considering Ace was visibly disgusted in "Remembrance of the Daleks" with that sign window (a scene rendered better in the novel as, while reading, it's easier to imagine Ace saying the line with more poignancy), and how "Survival" shows Ace's close-knit group of friends being diverse as well, I'm amazed how any of this could go over anyone's head. At the same time, that dialogue clearly was rightly offensive, but it's also stuff people said in real life at the time. What else could Morgaine have done? I'm not defending his use of the dialogue or otherwise - that's the story's author's issue as he chose all the words for his own reasons. As the same writer of "Battlefield" wrote "Remembrance of the Daleks", and "Remembrance" sets up a defining character trait for Ace, with Morgaine using that in "Battlefield", it is indeed as poignant as it is sensitive a topic. Very adult stuff.

Also consider, some people were also screaming at 'The Twin Dilemma' over a fairly nasty scene that was due in part by post-regeneration instability, for which even the Doctor stated at the time how "(the regeneration) feels different this time." Of course, both episodes were aired a few days apart and some could easily have forgotten. Many of them still believe the Doctor was pushing scores of people into acid baths as well, based on hearsay rather than watching the actual story in which the alleged scene didn't take place in ("Vengeance on Varos", for which it's fairly obvious that the Doctor pushed nobody in...)

Forest and trees, absolutely. Classic DW definitely pushed boundaries at the time, that's for sure.

 

[Qonundrum]

"SNAKEDANCE"

A comparatively straightforward story, it's refreshing to see the worldbuilding of another society. One that suggests humanity was involved due to "human" being mentioned outright in an earlier episode, even if a later one describes a race that built the Great Crystal - this leads to some supposition of Manussa is a human colony or something else.

The opening is loaded with wooden acting; Nyssa should be faking ignorance a bit more strongly, and the Doctor also comes across as uncharacteristically unsure when he realizes it's Tegan. Especially after reading just the right book covering the right era of the society, in a time machine that can go anywhere in space and time and is bound to have lots of books that won't have covered the same eras. But Tegan would have picked out the right one, if the Mara was lurking in the depths of her mind and wanting to re-manifest...

Back to worldbuilding, Lon's ceremony outfit is often derided, by people who could be wearing that special helmet that the Doctor asked Ambril to wear before pointing out what it meant. The script is loaded with lots of interesting minutiae, both within the script and cleverly outward in some of the more fascinating fourth wall breaks that are just as subtle. And in every rewatch, some new little nuance stands out that went over my head in the past. That's what good storytelling does; having little nuances that always continue to pop out. And why not; good effects don't get any better on rewatches so what's left?

The scenes with Dojjen, despite looking like they were filmed on a stage, sell a lot of atmosphere and ethereal ethos.

Only part three does the old "imminent death" routine, which works, but parts one and two have far more effective cliffhangers.

Good new CGI for the snake in part four as well.

Season 20 was a celebratory season, each story having a recurring monster from the past. Nobody expected the Mara. But the plotting is about as traditional as one could get, especially with nobody believing the Doctor, and it's refreshing. More so considering how avant-garde the preceding "Kinda" was.

9.75/10

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Nice original ending scene, even if it did change the tone of the ending. Glad it's kept as an extra.

 

[Christopher]

One that suggests humanity was involved due to "human" being mentioned outright in an earlier episode, even if a later one describes a race that built the Great Crystal - this leads to some supposition of Manussa is a human colony or something else.

Maybe, but it's not unknown in sci-fi for humanoid aliens to be referred to as human. Even Iain M. Banks's Culture series does that, as of course does Star Wars.

Indeed, there were a couple of Hartnell episodes where the Doctor was called human and he didn't disagree. Of course, that's because they didn't settle on him being an alien until "The War Games," pretty much, but in retrospect it could be taken as an example of defining "human" more broadly.

 

[jaime]

Both dialogue that seemed "awkward" at the time and Sophie Aldred's delivery. Personally, it's a multi-layered poignant moment that flew over the heads of the detractors with more fervor than a dozen Canada geese flying overhead in spring (not to mention all the byproducts dropping out of them as well.)

Morgaine was manipulating Ace and Shou Yuing for her personal gain (claiming the Excalibur sword after her trickery gets them both out of the protection of the circle.) Whether Ace had her own racist undercurrents or if Morgaine was planting nasty things designed to get Shou angry, there are a few possibilities in the scene. Considering Ace was visibly disgusted in "Remembrance of the Daleks" with that sign window (a scene rendered better in the novel as, while reading, it's easier to imagine Ace saying the line with more poignancy), and how "Survival" shows Ace's close-knit group of friends being diverse as well, I'm amazed how any of this could go over anyone's head. At the same time, that dialogue clearly was rightly offensive, but it's also stuff people said in real life at the time. What else could Morgaine have done? I'm not defending his use of the dialogue or otherwise - that's the story's author's issue as he chose all the words for his own reasons. As the same writer of "Battlefield" wrote "Remembrance of the Daleks", and "Remembrance" sets up a defining character trait for Ace, with Morgaine using that in "Battlefield", it is indeed as poignant as it is sensitive a topic. Very adult stuff.

Also consider, some people were also screaming at 'The Twin Dilemma' over a fairly nasty scene that was due in part by post-regeneration instability, for which even the Doctor stated at the time how "(the regeneration) feels different this time." Of course, both episodes were aired a few days apart and some could easily have forgotten. Many of them still believe the Doctor was pushing scores of people into acid baths as well, based on hearsay rather than watching the actual story in which the alleged scene didn't take place in ("Vengeance on Varos", for which it's fairly obvious that the Doctor pushed nobody in...)

Forest and trees, absolutely. Classic DW definitely pushed boundaries at the time, that's for sure.

Aaronovitch really tried, Cartmel too — though I am not sure who to blame for Bamberas inability to use ‘Shame’ correctly.
And yeah… Aces reaction in Battlefield was clearly ‘hang on an effing minute, I don’t say stuff like that’ and as to ‘white kids’ well, to my London born working class ears, I knew exactly what she was saying and why.
I think it’s almost people’s own petit and petty bigotry’s that lead to not getting that.

As to the sawardian stuff… I think he thought he was doing Metal Hurlant, whereas Cartmel had the sense to go for Halo Jones and toned down the 2000AD antics.

 

[jaime]

"SNAKEDANCE"

A comparatively straightforward story, it's refreshing to see the worldbuilding of another society. One that suggests humanity was involved due to "human" being mentioned outright in an earlier episode, even if a later one describes a race that built the Great Crystal - this leads to some supposition of Manussa is a human colony or something else.

The opening is loaded with wooden acting; Nyssa should be faking ignorance a bit more strongly, and the Doctor also comes across as uncharacteristically unsure when he realizes it's Tegan. Especially after reading just the right book covering the right era of the society, in a time machine that can go anywhere in space and time and is bound to have lots of books that won't have covered the same eras. But Tegan would have picked out the right one, if the Mara was lurking in the depths of her mind and wanting to re-manifest...

Back to worldbuilding, Lon's ceremony outfit is often derided, by people who could be wearing that special helmet that the Doctor asked Ambril to wear before pointing out what it meant. The script is loaded with lots of interesting minutiae, both within the script and cleverly outward in some of the more fascinating fourth wall breaks that are just as subtle. And in every rewatch, some new little nuance stands out that went over my head in the past. That's what good storytelling does; having little nuances that always continue to pop out. And why not; good effects don't get any better on rewatches so what's left?

The scenes with Dojjen, despite looking like they were filmed on a stage, sell a lot of atmosphere and ethereal ethos.

Only part three does the old "imminent death" routine, which works, but parts one and two have far more effective cliffhangers.

Good new CGI for the snake in part four as well.

Season 20 was a celebratory season, each story having a recurring monster from the past. Nobody expected the Mara. But the plotting is about as traditional as one could get, especially with nobody believing the Doctor, and it's refreshing. More so considering how avant-garde the preceding "Kinda" was.

9.75/10

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Nice original ending scene, even if it did change the tone of the ending. Glad it's kept as an extra.

Kinda is a stone cold classic of that Bidmead hard SF/New Wave era, only let down by its studio made giant robot. Like Frontios (and Battlefield funnily) really, its ideas were so much better when written down. I haven’t seen Snakedance since 83.

 

[diankra]

Maybe, but it's not unknown in sci-fi for humanoid aliens to be referred to as human. Even Iain M. Banks's Culture series does that, as of course does Star Wars.

Indeed, there were a couple of Hartnell episodes where the Doctor was called human and he didn't disagree. Of course, that's because they didn't settle on him being an alien until "The War Games," pretty much, but in retrospect it could be taken as an example of defining "human" more broadly.

Masterplan, I think, there's a line about him only appearing human.

 

[Christopher]

Masterplan, I think, there's a line about him only appearing human.

Rather, the line is "He looked like an Earth creature." The Doctor was always depicted as coming from another planet, but I think the original intent was that it was a far-future human colony. The Doctor referred to "we humans" in "The Sensorites," for one example.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

Rather, the line is "He looked like an Earth creature." The Doctor was always depicted as coming from another planet, but I think the original intent was that it was a far-future human colony. The Doctor referred to "we humans" in "The Sensorites," for one example.

I'm too lazy to pull out my reference book, but initially wasn't the Doctor and Susan meant to be from the 40th Century? Either Earth or some planet in the 40th Century?

 

[Marc]

I'm too lazy to pull out my reference book, but initially wasn't the Doctor and Susan meant to be from the 40th Century? Either Earth or some planet in the 40th Century?

Think it was one of the Missing Stories audios that had Susan saying as much.

 

[diankra]

Think it was one of the Missing Stories audios that had Susan saying as much.

In the pilot Susan said she was born in the 50th century
In early drafts both the Doctor and Susan have 20 letter names like Romana. His is doctorwho.... etc

 

[Christopher]

In early drafts both the Doctor and Susan have 20 letter names like Romana. His is doctorwho.... etc

Huh? Where are you getting that? Are you attempting some kind of deadpan humor? The idea was there from the very earliest draft of the premise (as well as the second draft) that "Dr. Who" was a name coined by his human companions because he was amnesiac and didn't remember his name.

 

[diankra]

Dwm a few years ago.
In that early draft Susan was the heir to the throne.

 

[Christopher]

Dwm a few years ago.
In that early draft Susan was the heir to the throne.

Okay, I've tracked down articles about that DWM issue, which was a 2013 anniversary issue. They establish that the Doctor was a Lord of the House of Dooclare and that Susan was the heir to the throne, but she was named Findooclare, which is only 11 letters. There's nothing I can find anywhere about the Doctor's real name being Doctorwho-something. Maybe you're misremembering Dooclare.

 

[Mr Awe]

^ I'm thinking there might have been some humor/exaggeration in the OP's comment!

 

[Haggis and tatties]

I was looking through the internet archives and found a colour copy of The Web of Fear, and i enjoyed it as it had been a while since i last saw it.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Here’s an opportunity to catch up on classic DW programming from pre-2005 https://www.doctorwho.tv/news-and-f...who-programming-will-be-coming-to-bbc-iplayer

 

[Qonundrum]

Maybe, but it's not unknown in sci-fi for humanoid aliens to be referred to as human. Even Iain M. Banks's Culture series does that, as of course does Star Wars.

Indeed, there were a couple of Hartnell episodes where the Doctor was called human and he didn't disagree. Of course, that's because they didn't settle on him being an alien until "The War Games," pretty much, but in retrospect it could be taken as an example of defining "human" more broadly.

Good points! Early on, even before filming, there were back'n'forths over whether or not the Doctor would be human. After AUC was aired, one could argue the Doctor didn't say anything and play poker face or didn't deem the pedantic minutiae important. Later incarnations would probably take offence, as I can easily fathom Pertwee, T Baker, Davison, and C Baker being up in arms. McCoy as well, given his rant of humans when doing his fanwank scene in "Remembrance" over how humans don't remember all the alien invasions that took place (something "Survival" does more effectively when we see the Sgt returning to Earth from the then-current Cheetah Planet.)

 

[Turbo]

The Underwater Menace, and I posted my thoughts over in the animation thread.

 

[Kor]

The other day I noticed that some classic Doctor Who seasons are streaming for free on Tubi (go check it out!) so I watched Day of the Daleks, and now I'm on The Curse of Peladon. Pertwee is probably my favorite classic iteration of the Doctor.

Kor